Bombardier £188m Order from Southern

[northwichcat]

There was claim recently that it'd take eighteen months between the 317/8s leaving the East Anglian franchise and potentially being in service in "Lancashire" (not confirmed as happening, of course). In that light, eighteen months to build units sounds much faster

The difference being Southern won't need to route clear new 377s or have crew training (but may possibly issue a brief on any differences between the new 377s and the old ones.)

The 180s were with Northern for around 6 months before being put in to passenger service.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suppose that not all routes on Southern or SWT will go 10 car. Moving the 456s to SWT leaves both SWT and southern with some 455s to work the remaining 8-car (or less) services. Oh and the alternative would perhaps mean ordering more 450s - and that would not be fair would it ?.

All the routes on SWT are planned to go to 10 car though. That is the basis on which NR have just awarded a £30m contract to extend the platforms on every remaining suburban route. As all the diagrams get to Waterloo at some stage during the morning peak, I can't see how you can get away with only extend some of the trains...

 

[tbtc]

The difference being Southern won't need to route clear new 377s or have crew training (but may possibly issue a brief on any differences between the new 377s and the old ones.)

The 180s were with Northern for around 6 months before being put in to passenger service.

Surely it can't take anything like as long to obtain route clearance/ train staff as it does to build new trains from scratch?

This is a crazy waste of time.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely it can't take anything like as long to obtain route clearance/ train staff as it does to build new trains from scratch?

It doesn't but it's not an overnight process and if you attempted to do it too quickly you get trains cancelled because not enough crews are trained on them.

If the 317s do go to Northern really they should go straight away after leaving NXEA. Northern use Pacers on routes fully under the wires so could put extra EMUs in to use straight away. All 9 wouldn't need to be in use, they could use 4 for replacing the Pacers under the wires, crew training and 323 cover and put the other 5 in to warm storage until Manchester-Liverpool is electrified.

 

[starrymarkb]

To those saying about Windows 95 - Embedded systems are rather different from PCs, IIRC some Siemens stock is running Windows 3.1. Microsoft are still supporting Win95 in embedded applications, they only withdrew 3.1 embedded from sale in 2008!

 

[HSTEd]

To those saying about Windows 95 - Embedded systems are rather different from PCs, IIRC some Siemens stock is running Windows 3.1. Microsoft are still supporting Win95 in embedded applications, they only withdrew 3.1 embedded from sale in 2008!

Windows 3.11 was rather awesome.

Im suprised they havent moved to some sort of Linux implementation but I suppose that would require additional work.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The BBC, on a slow news day, is repeating this news ad nauseam with very little real information.

The BBC also showed clips purporting to be from within Derby but which were quite clearly the interior of Ilford judging from the large number of 317s in the background and on the jacks! There was, however, one clip from Derby which was especially interesting as it clearly showed 76112 ( the class 424 prototype ) behind the reporter.

 

[asylumxl]

Windows 3.11 was rather awesome.

Im suprised they havent moved to some sort of Linux implementation but I suppose that would require additional work.

You'd think. It's very stable and highly customisable. It's ideal really. Yet, no, they stick to Windows...

 

[O L Leigh]

Well, whenever I've been on a Cl379 that's needed a full restart I do keep seeing the word "Linux" appear on the boot-up screens.

But this is the problem with these units, as I've said before. They may be apparently identical but you have to look right down inside the operating systems to see to what extent they can be made compatible. Whenever I've broached a Bombardier fitter about updates and amendments to the TCMS they shake their head and tell me that pretty much everything about the TCMS has been configured according to the TOC specification, even down to the layout and appearance of the screens.

The other thing I will repeat is that there can be issues with different software releases being rolled out across the fleet. When you see blue crosses stuck to the inside of the windscreen of a Cl379 this indicates that a unit has had an update and is not to be coupled to another unit that has not had the update in case of any incompatibility issues. Additionally, there are likely to be compatibility issues between Cl377s and Cl379s anyway due to the latter unit having more onboard systems, such as digital seat reservation indicators and speed-set.

Still, could be worse.

O L Leigh

 

[Via Bank]

The primary reason for using old versions of Windows are two-fold:

1. They're cheap (the cheapest versions of Windows that you can licence for embedded applications are the oldest);
2. They're mature code, and well-tested. It may have foibles, but years of software development and head-scratching has made these predictable foibles.

Southern's Electrostars, I'm led to believe, run Windows 95. First-generation mainline Desiros run Windows 3.11 (360s, 350s, 450s, etc.) The new Desiro City platform will probably run on Windows 98.

All Alstom's trains (Pendolinos, Junipers, et al) run a custom Linux distribution. From what OL Leigh has said, it seems probable that Bombardier has chosen to develop a new TMS with a Linux kernel for the 379s.

The new Southern units will need to be coupling-compatible with the existing 377s. As I see it, Bombardier has three options:

• Build the new units with the Windows 95-based TMS already in use on the 377s. (Whether or not they will need to seek additional volume licencing for this may complicate matters - I believe Microsoft have deprecated Windows 3.11 and Windows 95, so they probably won't sell it to them.)
• Build the new units with a new (Linux- or later-Windows-based) TMS, and find a way of upgrading existing units to run the new system. This depends on how many hardware foibles have crept into both classes of unit (given that this is Bombardier, we can safely guess that it'll be a lot, and it would take a long time to make the whole fleet coupling-compatible.)
• Build the new Electrostars with the new TMS, and write a compatibility layer that allows them to "talk" to the old units. This seems to be the obvious choice, given that it'd only be the reimplementation of the relevant protocols (like writing a web browser for Windows, and then another for Linux.)

 

[ert47]

And buried in the DfT page is the first official news that Thameslink and Southern will now merge in July 2015 as the current Southern franchise will end on the 25th July 2015.

Okay then... So Thameslink was a Subsidary of Govia (that also runs Southern and SouthEastern, but then this was transferred to First and added to the WAGN franchise (was there another one as well?) and renamed First Capital Connect.

Now in 2015 it might either be First or a Govia franchise (or even another company altogether).

Funny how things turn out :roll:

 

[MCR247]

All Alstom's trains (Pendolinos, Junipers, et al) run a custom Linux distribution. From what OL Leigh has said, it seems probable that Bombardier has chosen to develop a new TMS with a Linux kernel for the 379s.

I take it voyagers also use this (or something similar)?

 

[Via Bank]

I take it voyagers also use this (or something similar)?

Voyagers are Bombardier units

Given that both Voyagers and Pendos have Dellner couplers, they can run in multiple, but because the TMS and the electrical systems are incompatible, the units are both somewhat hobbled. It's only ever done if a Pendolino is assisting a failed Voyager, or vice versa.

 

[MCR247]

Voyagers are Bombardier units

Given that both Voyagers and Pendos have Dellner couplers, they can run in multiple, but because the TMS and the electrical systems are incompatible, the units are both somewhat hobbled. It's only ever done if a Pendolino is assisting a failed Voyager, or vice versa.

Are they really?!

I said this because Voyagers don't have the Bombardier TMS, they have one compatible with Alstoms

Therefore 222s and 220/221s can't work together, and why you can reconfigure a 222 within an hour or so, but it is a long and harder job with voyagers

 

[Class377/5]

Okay then... So Thameslink was a Subsidary of Govia (that also runs Southern and SouthEastern, but then this was transferred to First and added to the WAGN franchise (was there another one as well?) and renamed First Capital Connect.

Now in 2015 it might either be First or a Govia franchise (or even another company altogether).

Funny how things turn out :roll:

Funny is fact South Central final franchise has been let, come 2015 it's all Thameslink franchise.

What comes around....

As for Bombardier, they only got the order because Siemens got the Thameslink and the Government panicked into ordering some from them s they would get hit on two front. One being the Derby issue and other would be if they didn't get these trains they would have to accept Southern not achieving a capacity increase with the 10 car railway. Bad press all round for the DfT.

 

[WatcherZero]

So fitting 377 components into a 379 bodyshell, They look like twins externally despite the 8 year time difference but I imagine the interior fittings are quite different with things like weight savings and 'optimised' equipment layouts. The fact they havent secured finance for this deal yet does tend to indicate it was rushed out on the 1000th anniversary.

 

[Blindtraveler]

sodtware aside good on Darby. Glad that theres, some, good news there. Next job, Ms Greening should give them a nice little Pacer replacement order for 172s with gangways. Not that I want to see pacers go, but its gotta happen.
Once thats in hand, 378s or 9s for northern for new routes and 323, 322 and 321 replacement with the 323s to LM and LMs 321s along with others mentioned to Anglia.

If LO is going 5 car entirely some extra carredges will be needed for 378s. Moan as many do about bombardia problems it was pointed out earlier that 380s and the new TL units are lighter, achieved by varius means I guess but one things for sure, theres bits falling off the interiors of 380s already so there not the qualitty some think they are.

 

[Class377/5]

sodtware aside good on Darby. Glad that theres, some, good news there. Next job, Ms Greening should give them a nice little Pacer replacement order for 172s with gangways. Not that I want to see pacers go, but its gotta happen.
Once thats in hand, 378s or 9s for northern for new routes and 323, 322 and 321 replacement with the 323s to LM and LMs 321s along with others mentioned to Anglia.

If LO is going 5 car entirely some extra carredges will be needed for 378s. Moan as many do about bombardia problems it was pointed out earlier that 380s and the new TL units are lighter, achieved by varius means I guess but one things for sure, theres bits falling off the interiors of 380s already so there not the qualitty some think they are.

Remember two of the 377/5 went back to Derby because internally they weren't finished properly and were falling to bits. Siemens may not have had the best time with the introduction of the 380's but if Bombardier take longer to get an already fully operational class into service then that doesn't speak highly of them.

None of the recent Derby builds have done brilliantly. The 377/5 are only just above 1 failure a day, the 09ts have finally bedded in, the S stock deliveries are suspended and the 379's and 378's seem to now be settled. Let's hope this new Electrostar, a 1.75 version, goes better into service than others.

 

[Blindtraveler]

wasnt aware of the S stock suspention and wìlst you have fare points anybody can learn

 

[Schnellzug]

Its a cynical world...

To be fair to our political masters (not that I'm normally a fan), the timing of this announcement is quite clever, not just to avoid people realising how long its been since the last order*, but also because there is very little in the news at the moment (Prince Phillip out of hospital, a shooting in Salford, a stabbing in London, nothing that would be *huge* news in a "normal" week), so the coalition get a "good news story" into the press, its been repeated in several bulletins I've heard today (radio/telly).

Maybe later someone will do the maths, realise its been a thousand days, maybe question why it costs well over £1,000,000 per coach, wonder why the busy London routes these EMUs will be used on require such huge subsidies, start to question why our fragmented railways are so expensive that they need such money throwing at them... but for now, Greening can bask in the positive headlines (no Labour MP is going to question why this is costing so much, because it'd be unpatriotic to question throwing all this money at Bombardier...)

(* - strange, considering how many electrification announcements we've had in the last couple of years - as it we don't need new EMUs to run on these newly electrified lines!)

Why do everyone always have to get poiltical cyncism into everything? They do order new trains, and people complain. This is why I lost interest in Modern Railways, they were, convinced they were Have I Got News For You.

 

[neonison]

As reported elsewhere on Derby's standards:


http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/metro/2011/12/20-transport-for-london-refuses-to.html




.

 

[tbtc]

Why do everyone always have to get poiltical cyncism into everything? They do order new trains, and people complain. This is why I lost interest in Modern Railways, they were, convinced they were Have I Got News For You.

Cynicism is the one thing that Britain is still best at!

Seriously though, this hugely expensive order (for a "British" firm that struggles to win competitive tenders) just happens to be made at a time of little news, before the press get wind of the "thousand days"?

Coincidently just before fares are going up in the new year?

 

[Class377/5]

wasnt aware of the S stock suspention and wìlst you have fare points anybody can learn

Problem is Bombardier needed to learn a lot where as Siemens don't. When your bidding for such a big contract things like this matter.

Even getting the 377/5's up to where they are now required a lot of effort on Bombardier's behalf that took months with specialists on site.

 

[neonison]

As reported elsewhere on Derby's standards:


http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/metro/2011/12/20-transport-for-london-refuses-to.html




.

Modern Railways reported loose brackets and collector shoes falling off. Does not sound like software problems.

 

[Class377/5]

Modern Railways reported loose brackets and collector shoes falling off. Does not sound like software problems.

There's been software issues as well as hardware issues. Typical Bombardier really.

 

[ainsworth74]

There's been software issues as well as hardware issues. Typical Bombardier really.

So basically they don't actually work as advertised?

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Apologies, but can somebody explain what the 1,000 days is all about?

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies, but can somebody explain what the 1,000 days is all about?

Days since last firm order for new rolling stock from a manufacturer.

 

[tbtc]

So basically they don't actually work as advertised?

...but, but these are the wonderful British products that we need to pay over the odds for, in order to save 1,400 jobs!

(oh, wait...)

 

[ainsworth74]

...but, but these are the wonderful British products that we need to pay over the odds for, in order to save 1,400 jobs!

(oh, wait...)

Now now

But actually that does raise a serious point, it seemed a lot of the outrage was over the loss jobs (even though Thameslink would have only saved 200) but have we been told how many this new deal is going to save?