Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[50032]

Hasn't it been said that the whole May 18 timetable so far as it relates to TP and Northern is dependent on the wires on Preston Manchester being usable. If not the change can't take place due lack of non electric stock and the paths only working if there is electric running where planned.

Rumours circulating that Manchester - Preston won't be ready in time and the plug will be pulled on the May timetable change.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Rumours circulating that Manchester - Preston won't be ready in time and the plug will be pulled on the May timetable change.

Yes - virtually all the posts on this thread today are about exactly that. However, that the plug will be pulled on the May timetable change is new information - even though only a rumour- thanks for posting.

 

[50032]

Yes - virtually all the posts on this thread today are about exactly that. However, that the plug will be pulled on the May timetable change is new information - even though only a rumour- thanks for posting.

The gist of what I am hearing is that Northern will be massively short of DMU's and unable to deliver planned services if the electrification doesn't happen.

Similarly, I note the Wigan - Alderley Edge service is timed for a 75mph DMU - one can't help reading into that and presuming they're not expecting the 319 Flex to be ready either.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Hasn't it been said that the whole May 18 timetable so far as it relates to TP and Northern is dependent on the wires on Preston Manchester being usable. If not the change can't take place due lack of non electric stock and the paths only working if there is electric running where planned.

How many EXTRA electric trains would Northern need for May 18 to extend Liverpool to Preston back to Blackpool, Blackpool to Manchester and the Blackpool to the Airport services
The ONLY electric trains available THIS YEAR to Northern currently are
17 x Class 323's
20 x Class 319's the original 20 319/3's
ALL used by the old Northern franchise
12 Additional 319's announced in the NEW franchise
4 x 319/3 at Allerton
8 x 319/4 now to be converted to Bi Mode 769's, 3 are currently at Brush and the rest will be there by May 18
plus 3 more 769's
If the number of electric trains needed is more than the 4 extra 319/3's then the 769's will probably have to be used, if so by being Bi Mode they can be used on diesel if electricity is not available for part of the route

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 769s, if they are ready (and approved) by May, which I doubt, will need a lot of training, both crew and maintenance.
But there should be plenty of 319s to extend Liverpool services to Blackpool, if nothing else.
You only need 1 more unit than now.

 

[50032]

How many EXTRA electric trains would Northern need for May 18

It isn't electrics Northern are short of.

If Manchester - Preston isn't finished in time, a lot of DMU's that currently operate between Manchester/Preston/Blackpool cannot be cascaded onto planned new services, Chester via WBQ, Greenbank, Buxton additionals etc.

 

[DJH1971]

Rumours circulating that Manchester - Preston won't be ready in time and the plug will be pulled on the May timetable change.

Unless they go via Chat Moss.

 

[50032]

Unless they go via Chat Moss.

I can envisage Blackpool - Manchester services doing exactly that, however a lot of plans will be screwed up by DMU's having to continue running via Bolton.

 

[notlob.divad]

Also any further delay in electrification must have a knock impact to the refurbishment and PRM modification program.

 

[DJH1971]

I can envisage Blackpool - Manchester services doing exactly that, however a lot of plans will be screwed up by DMU's having to continue running via Bolton.

Yes, I may have mentioned on quite a few occasions my concerns regarding the progress of Manchester to Preston which seem to be losing monumental, but I am no means alone.

The extremely fast pace of the work between Preston to Blackpool should indicate that a new approach may be needed.

 

[Chester1]

It isn't electrics Northern are short of.

If Manchester - Preston isn't finished in time, a lot of DMU's that currently operate between Manchester/Preston/Blackpool cannot be cascaded onto planned new services, Chester via WBQ, Greenbank, Buxton additionals etc.

Northern has received 4 cascaded units since 10th December and will recieve I think another dozen or so by May. EMUs from Liverpool can be extended from Preston and or run Preston-Blackpool shuttles. The 4 x 185s on loan from TPE are not required to return to run TPEs May 2018 timetable. I would be surprised if that is not enough to make do until electrification has been completed between Manchester and Preston, 769s are finished or more cascaded units arrive.

The Northern Connect services are not due to start until the 195s arrive.

 

[50032]

The 4 x 185s on loan from TPE are not required to return to run TPEs May 2018 timetable.

Perhaps not required but they were nevertheless to be returned to TPE in May. The four cascaded 150's haven't even scratched the surface of the problem! Add 6x156 units for the proposed Liverpool - MIA former TPE services, to the list of un-deliverable changes.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The extremely fast pace of the work between Preston to Blackpool should indicate that a new approach may be needed.

What is being proposed for Northern Transpennine Electrification if it goes ahead - extended blockades by any chance what you were thinking?

 

[deltic08]

It isn't electrics Northern are short of.

If Manchester - Preston isn't finished in time, a lot of DMU's that currently operate between Manchester/Preston/Blackpool cannot be cascaded onto planned new services, Chester via WBQ, Greenbank, Buxton additionals etc.

.........Leeds-Harrogate.
When are the 170s being cascaded from Edinburgh-Glasgow now that route has been energised?

 

[deltic08]

Yes, I may have mentioned on quite a few occasions my concerns regarding the progress of Manchester to Preston which seem to be losing monumental, but I am no means alone.

Momentum too.

 

[deltic08]

Add 6x156 units for the proposed Liverpool - MIA former TPE services, to the list of un-deliverable changes.

Is this service via Warrington? If not then can't 319s run the service temporarily.

 

[IanXC]

Is this service via Warrington? If not then can't 319s run the service temporarily.

Exactly the opposite problem. Currently there is a NT Liverpool to Airport via the Chat Moss operated by 319s, and a TP via Warrington (and onwards to Scarborough).

I suppose in isolation this change could be postponed - however that, I believe, leaves TPE needing one more 185 than what is currently planned.

 

[Chester1]

Perhaps not required but they were nevertheless to be returned to TPE in May. The four cascaded 150's haven't even scratched the surface of the problem! Add 6x156 units for the proposed Liverpool - MIA former TPE services, to the list of un-deliverable changes.

There are another 7 due in early Feb, followed by more at the end of the month and during March. I can't find the post with the dates and units. Unless both electrification and the 769s are going to be several months late it would make more sense to have a temorary fix and make do through short forming. Only withdrawal of pacers from 15th September would make that approach impossible.

 

[lejog]

Perhaps not required but they were nevertheless to be returned to TPE in May. The four cascaded 150's haven't even scratched the surface of the problem! Add 6x156 units for the proposed Liverpool - MIA former TPE services, to the list of un-deliverable changes.

I thought the 185s were required for TPE to take over the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds stopper, which needs around 3 units, but in turn would free up more DMUs for Northern's new services. If these don't arrive, it is difficult to see the new 15min clockface TPE North service happening, or the switch via the Ordsall Chord and Victoria. There are so many interactions between the two companies in the new timetable (and it is a jointly produced timetable) that is difficult to see what can be salvaged if the internal cascade of DMUS from Bolton is delayed.

 

[Chester1]

I thought the 185s were required for TPE to take over the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds stopper, which needs around 3 units, but in turn would free up more DMUs for Northern's new services. There are so many interactions between the two companies in the new timetable (and it is a jointly produced timetable) that is difficult to see what can be salvaged if the internal cascade of DMUS from Bolton is delayed.

Delaying the new TPE timetable and proper use of the Ordsall Chord would have political implications for the government and they will likely be pushing hard for alternative solutions. Exactly how many DMUs will be freed up by electrification between Manchester and Preston?

 

[lejog]

You would hope that Northern/TPE have a contingency plan, but I doubt anyone else could work it out, its too complex. But remember the timetable change has already been delayed from December 2017 to May 18 because of delays in cascades of rolling stock from GW and Bolton electrification. These were the only sources of extra DMUs planned for Northern before the changes.

 

[Railrover700]

My guide on Sunday's fabulous tour of Preston to Blackpool North worksites kindly agreed to answer a series of prepared questions; here they are, with his answers in his own words.

1.How can a layman tell where a neutral section starts and finishes? Do the wires look different?
Neutral sections are a long piece of insulation just over 8 metres long, you can tell it’s an NS as there will be no contact wire throughout the length and an earthed section of catenary, there will also be signs attached to OLE structures 1 mile out on the approach and on the structure prior to the NS to give the driver notice. There will also be magnets attached to the sleepers on either rail, 2 on the approach and 2 on the exit, these open the breakers on the unit so it doesn’t drag current over and then close them again once the pan is clear of the NS.

There are no NS throughout Phase 3.

2.Why are weights still used in some places in the recently wired section?
The engineering designer has kept all equipment associated with the West Coast i.e. Mk3B OLE which use the balance weights separate from the Fylde lines which is Series 2 OLE and uses Tensorex C+.

Both balance weights and Tensorex C+ are in the Series design range, so it’s the designers' discretion which in this case they have decided to separate the equipment.

3.How many electric trains will the line accommodate? Is there any danger of a Skipton, where there isn't the juice for many?
I'm not personally aware of the full details of Skipton to comment, but the value of impedance has been considered in the OHLE design, all OHLE design is integrated with other disciplines.

As usual, TOC and FOC demand decides frequency of services between Preston and Blackpool.

4.Does power come to the big box at Kirkham direct from the National Grid or from the WCML?
Kirkham TSS is connected to the grid - Preston TSC (track section cabin) has been upgraded, Kirkham and Blackpool have new TSS (traction sub station).

I have asked an engineer to expand on your question, will update in due course. (Supplementary verbal answer: the power comes from Catterall)

5.When might the first test trains run?
Awaiting confirmed dates , will update in due course

The question everyone asked was will the South and North lines reopen on their respective due dates? This was answered in my initial report - YES!

May I lead a vote of thanks to him and to Network Rail for this considerable effort. He really put himself out on our behalf.

Many thanks all round. Great pics also!

 

[Chester1]

You would hope that Northern/TPE have a contingency plan, but I doubt anyone else could work it out, its too complex. But remember the timetable change has already been delayed from December 2017 to May 18 because of delays in cascades of rolling stock from GW and Bolton electrification. These were the only sources of extra DMUs planned for Northern before the changes.

The cascade has started now (four units last week) so Northern will have ~12-16 more units in May 2018 than in December 2017. TPE would probably prefer to delay the return of 4 x 185s by a few weeks than scrap the whole timetable change. Blackpool North-Hazel Grove/Manchester Airport services require roughly 8 x 319/769s or 16 x 150s.

Clearly the full new timetable won't be possible without either Bolton electrification or 769s. However, there should be enough cascaded units to allow enough of the planned changes to allow TPE to introduce its new timetable using Ordsall Chord and diverting Scarborough services via Chat Moss. If the 769s don't arrive or electrification won't be finished by September then delaying the timetable change makes sense but are we talking about that length of delay?

 

[lejog]

But TPE can't delay the return of the 185s for a few weeks if they are to run the new TPE North timetable, that's the whole reason for switching stopping services to TPE, Northern's Sprinters/Pacers can't meet the timetable.

I'm not going to speculate on what is/what isn't possible on a few wildly inaccurate back of fag packet figures, when Northern/TPE have had a large team of planners working on this for years,

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I would suspect that the only real option if Preston - Bolton isn't ready would be to just carry on with the current timetable.

The important question would be for how long and when would you then seek to change the timetable. Realistically, all things considered, it couldn't then be changed until December.

 

[deltic08]

The important question would be for how long and when would you then seek to change the timetable. Realistically, all things considered, it couldn't then be changed until December.

The current Manchester-Blackpool timetable is a temporary one for nearly four months. Just have another temporary timetable as soon as Preston-Blackpool is operating EMUs in April but use bustitution between Manchester and Preston this time until EMUs are operating this part during Summer 2018. A three month blockade would see electrification completed by the end of June.
Buses will free up DMUs that should have been released anyway for the May 18 timetable.

 

[Chester1]

But TPE can't delay the return of the 185s for a few weeks if they are to run the new TPE North timetable, that's the whole reason for switching stopping services to TPE, Northern's Sprinters/Pacers can't meet the timetable.

I'm not going to speculate on what is/what isn't possible on a few wildly inaccurate back of fag packet figures, when Northern/TPE have had a large team of planners working on this for years,

The TPE takeover of stopping services is not due until December, the May timetable change diverts Scarborough services via Chat Moss, uses the Ordsall Chord and extends York services to Newcastle. It only requires two extra units i.e. the Mark III sets. Half the posts on the forum are speculation!

I would suspect that the only real option if Preston - Bolton isn't ready would be to just carry on with the current timetable.

The important question would be for how long and when would you then seek to change the timetable. Realistically, all things considered, it couldn't then be changed until December.

Only if you ignore the units cascaded to Northern between December and May and think that TPE would prefer the 4 x 185s back rather than introduce the timetable.

The current Manchester-Blackpool timetable is a temporary one for nearly four months. Just have another temporary timetable as soon as Preston-Blackpool is operating EMUs in April but use bustitution between Manchester and Preston this time until EMUs are operating this part during Summer 2018. A three month blockade would see electrification completed by the end of June.
Buses will free up DMUs that should have been released anyway for the May 18 timetable.

That would be the most drastic option but would work. Extending Liverpool EMUs to Blackpool North would be an improvement on the current coach service and free up some DMUs. Northern could keep the 4 x 185s for a few more weeks and enough units will have been cascaded by May to introduce another temporary timetable for Manchester to Preston combined with multiple engineering closures.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The TPE takeover of stopping services is not due until December, the May timetable change diverts Scarborough services via Chat Moss, uses the Ordsall Chord and extends York services to Newcastle. It only requires two extra units i.e. the Mark III sets. Half the posts on the forum are speculation!

Open trains times and all published info so far say different.

 

[Trackman]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...ugh_Bolton_delayed_by_a_further_SEVEN_months/

 

[thealexweb]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...ugh_Bolton_delayed_by_a_further_SEVEN_months/

*long sigh*

A helpful smokescreen for Northern however. The refurb of the 319s and the bi-modes will be much further along in December.

I have been patiently awaiting the return of the Scotland services since they ended in 2013. I plan to move back to Bolton in mid-2019, at this rate I won't actually get to use them...