Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Greybeard33]

I think the other Bolton electric service will terminate at Bolton in the reinstated platform, possibly extended to Wigan when the Wigan-Bolton electrification is done.

The Northern franchise requirement is for 7tph from Manchester to Bolton. Of those, 3tph are to continue to Preston via Chorley, 2tph to Wigan and 2tph (diesel) to Blackburn.

 

[WatcherZero]

From 2019 spec is 7tph to Bolton in morning peak but 8tph in evening peak.
For Bolton Manchester it calls for 8 in two of the three morning peak hours and 7 in the evening.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Northern franchise requirement is for 7tph from Manchester to Bolton. Of those, 3tph are to continue to Preston via Chorley, 2tph to Wigan and 2tph (diesel) to Blackburn.

A lovely little sparks add on at a later date I would hope.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

A lovely little sparks add on at a later date I would hope.

You would hope so, however if you electrified to Blackburn you'd presumably also have to continue another ten miles along to Clitheroe too, including through the tunnels at Blackburn and Ramsgreave and across Whalley Viaduct. I can't imagine you'd get away with truncating services to run between Manchester and Blackburn only and turning Clitheroe into a shuttle service from Blackburn.

Edit - I can imagine wiring through Sough Tunnel would also send the costs up a bit!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You would hope so, however if you electrified to Blackburn you'd presumably also have to continue another ten miles along to Clitheroe too, including through the tunnels at Blackburn and Ramsgreave and across Whalley Viaduct. I can't imagine you'd get away with truncating services to run between Manchester and Blackburn only and turning Clitheroe into a shuttle service from Blackburn.

Edit - I can imagine wiring through Sough Tunnel would also send the costs up a bit!

No to get too OT but thank goodness it is very high up on the priority list for the North of England

http://www.railnorth.org/news/electrification-task-force-final-report-revealed/

 

[furnessvale]

Edit - I can imagine wiring through Sough Tunnel would also send the costs up a bit!

Not that I think there is a snowball's chance in hell of it happening, but isn't Sough Tunnel single track now, having been built as double track? Clearances shouldn't be a problem.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not that I think there is a snowball's chance in hell of it happening, but isn't Sough Tunnel single track now, having been built as double track? Clearances shouldn't be a problem.

Yes, I'm not sure if it was done with the general rationalisation in connection with the commissioning of Preston PSB in the early 70s or as a result of the landslip on the site around the same time, but single track it is, I think just off-centre of the middle of the formation. Whether said landslip has had any impact on the stability of the land which may cause problems during electrification I don't know however.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes, I'm not sure if it was done with the general rationalisation in connection with the commissioning of Preston PSB in the early 70s or as a result of the landslip on the site around the same time, but single track it is, I think just off-centre of the middle of the formation. Whether said landslip has had any impact on the stability of the land which may cause problems during electrification I don't know however.

Would it be open to a "Farnworth" type solution?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

You would hope so, however if you electrified to Blackburn you'd presumably also have to continue another ten miles along to Clitheroe too, including through the tunnels at Blackburn and Ramsgreave and across Whalley Viaduct. I can't imagine you'd get away with truncating services to run between Manchester and Blackburn only and turning Clitheroe into a shuttle service from Blackburn.

Edit - I can imagine wiring through Sough Tunnel would also send the costs up a bit!

It (just wiring from Farington Curve to Blackburn) would however get EMUs to King Street Depot ...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Would it be open to a "Farnworth" type solution?

I'm not an engineer but I don't think they're the same sort of problems per se. I doubt Sough would be an impasse to the entire project, but it's certainly the biggest issue between Bolton and Blackburn, probably not aided by how remote it is.

It (just wiring from Farington Curve to Blackburn) would however get EMUs to King Street Depot ...

Indeed, however I believe the whole point of the new depot at Blackburn is to compensate for the loss of facility at Blackpool once that gets electrified. I suppose there's nothing to stop King Street hosting both types of traction though.

 

[Geeves]

The Farnworth tunnel rebuild cost was something around the 100 million pound mark for 276 meters. The Sough Tunnel is 1843m meters long so at roughly 6 times longer I would hazard a guess the 600 milion the price tag probably puts it at the somewhat expensive end for 4 trains an hour in a few years for that type of work.

 

[snowball]

The Farnworth tunnel rebuild cost was something around the 100 million pound mark for 276 meters.

I think that's the first time I've seen a figure for the cost. Quite expensive, wasn't it?

 

[LDECRexile]

Paul and I travelled Bolton to Buckshee Parkway and back today, complete with notepads and pencils.

We were greatly heartened.

Overall it gives the impression that nowt has been done on the ground until they are good and ready and now wham, all hands to the pumps.

It doesn't show on the Progressometer, but we counted no fewer than 95 scrapes, on top of 26 masts and 231 bases. There are 60 scrapes (investigative earthworks) between Bolton and Dean Clough bridge, which is new territory.

We freely admit that our clobberspotting skills have grown rusty and barnacle-encrusted, so the figures probably under-report what has gone on.

I have wanged our findings on the Progressometer, as below. Some figures seem rum, ie we saw fewer today than the last recorded numbers back in the Spring, but we expect that to settle down as we and LNW get our eye in and our acts co-ordinated.

Otherwise, there were:

1. men with heavy kit working at the north end of the Platform 5 site at Bolton
2. Road-railers and evidence of lineside activity west of Hindley (Phase 7, I know)
3. signs of progress at Chorley station

but

No signs of life or progress with Bolton buffet
Chorley buffet was closed, no signs of life

Photos later, or tomorrow

 

[LDECRexile]

I've added Paul's photos to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

and all today's shots to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

 

[WatcherZero]

I think that's the first time I've seen a figure for the cost. Quite expensive, wasn't it?

With compensation payments as well probably not that exorbitant for a new tunnel which it essentially was including filling in the old tunnel before reboring.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I think that's the first time I've seen a figure for the cost. Quite expensive, wasn't it?

I suspect that cost also includes the two stations, Cemetery Road bridge and the temporary crossovers and signalling for the single line, plus (possibly) the footbridge at the Kearsley end.

 

[LDECRexile]

I'm very pleased that Reg has sent more shots of Platform 5 work at Bolton.

I've added them to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157671732263863

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Reg

 

[QueensCurve]

You would hope so, however if you electrified to Blackburn you'd presumably also have to continue another ten miles along to Clitheroe too, including through the tunnels at Blackburn and Ramsgreave and across Whalley Viaduct. I can't imagine you'd get away with truncating services to run between Manchester and Blackburn only and turning Clitheroe into a shuttle service from Blackburn.

Edit - I can imagine wiring through Sough Tunnel would also send the costs up a bit!

Services from Kings X and Liverpool St to Cambridge were truncated at Roston and Bishops Stortford respectively for 10 years. And then there is Ormskirk.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that's the first time I've seen a figure for the cost. Quite expensive, wasn't it?

The need for heavy engineering at Farnworth delayed Blackpool to Manchester Wiring for 40y.

 

[LeylandLen]

I suspect that cost also includes the two stations, Cemetery Road bridge and the temporary crossovers and signalling for the single line, plus (possibly) the footbridge at the Kearsley end.

Also , the work was extended wasn't it until last December due to unforeseen problems , and with working around the clock , a lot of man-hours were needed. Now I've no idea what a basic hourly rate is ( I would guess at least £25 on average bearing in mind specialist engineers would have been needed are not cheap !) wages would have taken up a large % age of the total cost.
Then there's the cost of the tunneling machine and ancillary equipment .

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not sure this has been posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSz-biYYPPQ

 

[Ianno87]

Services from Kings X and Liverpool St to Cambridge were truncated at Roston and Bishops Stortford respectively for 10 years. And then there is Ormskirk.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The need for heavy engineering at Farnworth delayed Blackpool to Manchester Wiring for 40y.

In the Clitheroe case, I think you'd need an extra unit to run an hourly service split at Blackburn (especially if you want to time decent connections at Blackburn). Doubt the extra operational cost would be sustainable for very long (you don't invest in OLE nowadays to increase ops costs)

 

[42626]

The Northern franchise requirement is for 7tph from Manchester to Bolton. Of those, 3tph are to continue to Preston via Chorley, 2tph to Wigan and 2tph (diesel) to Blackburn.

How many of those will stop at Blackrod? We currently have the situation where Blackrod carries twice the number of passengers as Lostock, yet only enjoys half the tph.

 

[snowball]

According to the new Modern Railways, page 17, Network Rail is said to have notified the DfT that it is unlikely to complete the necessary work in time for an enchanced timetable to come into effect in Dec 2017.

This will be no surprise to most people on this thread (despite JL's optimism in #3112).

There's talk of a staged introduction in May and December 2018.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to the new Modern Railways, page 17, Network Rail is said to have notified the DfT that it is unlikely to complete the necessary work in time for an enchanced timetable to come into effect in Dec 2017.
This will be no surprise to most people on this thread (despite JL's optimism in #3112).
There's talk of a staged introduction in May and December 2018.

Plus the impression that resources have ben diverted to GW to prevent further slippage there.

I imagine the Blackpool blockade is still in place/on schedule for winter 2018, which might mean it all comes on line at the same date in 2018.
Maybe not Stalybridge.

Roger Ford gave dates elsewhere for commissioning resignalling Wavertree-Weaver Jn (May 2018) and Edge Hill-Liverpool (Oct 2018).

 

[Greybeard33]

How many of those will stop at Blackrod? We currently have the situation where Blackrod carries twice the number of passengers as Lostock, yet only enjoys half the tph.

Blackrod is to get 1tph off peak, 2tph peak, Mon-Fri. Lostock 2tph off peak.

 

[1179_Clee2]

According to the new Modern Railways, page 17, Network Rail is said to have notified the DfT that it is unlikely to complete the necessary work in time for an enchanced timetable to come into effect in Dec 2017.

This will be no surprise to most people on this thread (despite JL's optimism in #3112).

There's talk of a staged introduction in May and December 2018.

What does this now mean for Northern?
The extra Class 319's are now going to stored as cannot be used.
If it is to provide extra seats it now needs another option to do this.
Two options Loco hauled or DMU.
Angel trains are refurbing 18 Class 442's (rail magazine) either send them North or use on GWR and send the DMU's Northern are getting but earlier than planned

 

[scrapy]

How many of those will stop at Blackrod? We currently have the situation where Blackrod carries twice the number of passengers as Lostock, yet only enjoys half the tph.

How many of them actually alight at Blackrod though? It is a PTE boundary station and useful ticket splitting point. Especially as a season ticket to Blackrod plus a GM Traincard or season from BLK to Manchester works out cheaper to Manchester than a season straight through from many of the Lancashire stations further along the route. This artificially increase the number of recorded passengers. Having said that I think the line should have 4 tph, 2 all stops and 2 fast (Horwich and Chorley only).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What does this now mean for Northern?
The extra Class 319's are now going to have to be stored as cannot be used.

I assume (hopefully those in the know can add to) that fairly full service Manchester - Preston electric May 2018 (I say fairly full because I am not sure that without Stalybridge there will be enough power/electrical energy/current).
Diesel shuttles using the freed up DMUs to operate Preston - Blackpool which I assume will be the bit that follows on December 2018 and by then Staly will be done too.

That is my assumption - please don't quote the Steven Seagal movie line to me

 

[thealexweb]

How many of them actually alight at Blackrod though? It is a PTE boundary station and useful ticket splitting point. Especially as a season ticket to Blackrod plus a GM Traincard or season from BLK to Manchester works out cheaper to Manchester than a season straight through from many of the Lancashire stations further along the route. This artificially increase the number of recorded passengers. Having said that I think the line should have 4 tph, 2 all stops and 2 fast (Horwich and Chorley only).

Blackrod loses some passengers on paper that buy tickets to Adlington to exempt themselves from the evening peak restrictions.

 

[1179_Clee2]

I assume (hopefully those in the know can add to) that fairly full service Manchester - Preston electric May 2018 (I say fairly full because I am not sure that without Stalybridge there will be enough power/electrical energy/current).
Diesel shuttles using the freed up DMUs to operate Preston - Blackpool which I assume will be the bit that follows on December 2018 and by then Staly will be done too.

That is my assumption - please don't quote the Steven Seagal movie line to me

That is a lot of assumptions, let me ask a few questions to see if anybody out there knows more about things that I do!
Arriva submitted a bid to run the Northern franchise on the basis that extra capacity was available by certain dates. with electric services being delayed by a number of months what happens now? Arriva are going to have LESS passengers as it will not have enough trains or seats so will take less money. Does it get a bigger subsidy from the DfT or does it need more trains so it can run services with the capacity it wanted ?
Blackpool did not want people to have to change trains at Preston from Liverpool, under your proposal passengers would also have to change trains from Manchester at Preston. Would Blackpool be in favour of this or would it object? It would only have a direct service from York to Blackpool North. Could Preston cope with so many terminating trains and passengers changing from EMU to DMU ?
A number of Class 319's are currently at Wolverton, but not all will be needed in traffic until a few months after they should have been. Are Northern paying to lease the trains ? or paying for storage costs ? or does Porterbrook pick up the cost ?
All of the above are Network Rails problems due to late delivery of upgrades so does it pick up the costs or pay compensation ?
Food for thought ? Looking forward to anybodies reply !