Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Whistler40145]

If FTPE Blackpool North to Manchester Airport was 1tph, it could run as 2x185s.


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[Nym]

If FTPE Blackpool North to Manchester Airport was 1tph, it could run as 2x185s.


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It is now anyway... 1tph, not doubled up.

 

[Whistler40145]

I thought Blackpool North to Manchester Airport had 2tph except Sundays.

Was it ever 2tph?


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[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would introduce a temporary timetable, FTPE would operate from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport (1tph) via Eccles. So, could the WCML fit in a Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service?

Going back into deepest corners of my memory banks, did the LNWR/LMS ever run a service from Blackpool, down the WCML from Preston to Wigan North Western, then via the stations at Platt Bridge, Hindley Green, Howe Bridge, Tyldesley, Ellenbrook, Worsley, Monton Green, Eccles, then onwards to Manchester Exchange ?

 

[edwin_m]

How much would it be to either;

Put a curve in a curve at Westhaughton, so services could run from Bolton via Lostock Jcn and Atherton.

or;
Put in very good reversing facilities at Hindley, for the same again.

Hindley would require four point ends and associated signalling to allow turnback in either platform, or three point ends, restored platform face and associated signalling if you wanted to create a bay in one of the disused platforms. Temporary single line through the tunnel would only need two point ends if the affected track was disconnected, or four if it wasn't. So the Hindley option would be the same price or more and would give a much slower journey between Bolton and Manchester.

A curve at Westhoughton would cost lots more as it would be two brand new junctions and a connecting curve, part of which would be the long-disused alignment towards Chorley but the rest has never been a railway. As it goes outside the railway boundary it would also require TWA powers which normally take at least a year to obtain and could take longer in the likely event of objections triggering a public enquiry.

Cheapest option of all might be to reverse at Crow Nest. Does the layout since re-signalling allow this?

 

[TOCDriver]

Cheapest option of all might be to reverse at Crow Nest. Does the layout since re-signalling allow this?

It sure does. Reversing was done last Christmas when the engineering works were being carried out at Wallgate and Manchester trains were terminating at Hindley ( With a direct Manchester express from Wigan NW via Golborne)

 

[Eagle]

I thought Blackpool North to Manchester Airport had 2tph except Sundays.

Was it ever 2tph?

You might be confusing it with the fact that Blackpool North to Manchester in general is 2tph; consisting of 1tph TPE Blackpool North to Manchester Airport, and 1tph Northern Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria.

 

[Whistler40145]

Sorry for the "Senior Moment"!


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[Nym]

It sure does. Reversing was done last Christmas when the engineering works were being carried out at Wallgate and Manchester trains were terminating at Hindley ( With a direct Manchester express from Wigan NW via Golborne)

Hmmm, I get the feeling that reversing here would still beat a rail replacement bus in the peaks, how long would it take from Bolton to Victoria, 8 or 10 car 150?

 

[Welshman]

Going back into deepest corners of my memory banks, did the LNWR ever run a service from Blackpool, down the WCML from Preston to Wigan North Western, then via the stations at Platt Bridge, Hindley Green, Howe Bridge, Tyldesley, Ellenbrook, Worsley, Monton Green, Eccles, then onwards to Manchester ?

Yes, it did.
Not exactly the LNWR, but a throwback to those days, when in 1962-3ish I stumbled across a service from the old dark, cavernous station at Wigan North Western to Manchester Exchange.

It was what we now know as a Cl.104 d.m.u. and was almost empty, and the one and only occasion I used the Tyldesley loop.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Going back into deepest corners of my memory banks, did the LNWR ever run a service from Blackpool, down the WCML from Preston to Wigan North Western, then via the stations at Platt Bridge, Hindley Green, Howe Bridge, Tyldesley, Ellenbrook, Worsley, Monton Green, Eccles, then onwards to Manchester ?

My 1958 LMR timetable shows a semi-fast 1400 from Blackpool Central via Wigan NW and Tyldesley to Manchester Exchange arr 1801.
There were also through stopping trains from Manchester Ex to Windermere and Barrow, and from Wigan NW to Leeds via this route.
Day return Wigan-Manchester 3/5 (17p), no peak hour restrictions.

 

[Darren R]

Complete closure between Bolton and Windsor Bridge Nth Jc for the duration of the works is the only practical option - however much of a right-royal-pain it will be for a six month bustitution for those of us affected.

Talk of diverting via Crow Nest Jn and Atherton in some way is all very well, but paths would be limited and a much reduced service would result, certainly a much lower frequency than normal.

Windsor Bridge Jn to Burnden Jn can be operated as a single track section: it happened regularly recently due to Sunday engineering works at Farnworth Tunnel and around Salford Crescent. Only two trains per hour could operate in each direction (ie 4tph in total through the section). Fine on Sundays - probably! - not even close at other times.

It is undoubtedly going to be a bit of an inconvenience () but better to just bite the bullet, shut the line completely for the duration, and get it all done in one. It will be quicker that way; even if trains continue to run single line there will still be total blockades needed too - it would just prolong the agony.

 

[Whistler40145]

I think the best & only option is a complete blockade with the following temporary timetable in operation:-

Blackpool North to Manchester Airport via Wigan North Western & Eccles attaching portion from Barrow @ Preston & running with 2x185.

Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria via Wigan North Western & Salford Crescent

Preston to Bolton shuttle (reverse in Manchester bound platform if signalling allows bi-directional working)

Blackburn to Bolton shuttle (using back platform)

Southport to Manchester Victoria via Walkden (if path available with Northern Blackpool train running same route).

Wigan Wallgate to Bolton shuttle

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[Xenophon PCDGS]

My 1958 LMR timetable shows a semi-fast 1400 from Blackpool Central via Wigan NW and Tyldesley to Manchester Exchange arr 1801.

I had not realised there were such routed services operating as late as this and was really concerned with the LNWR/LMS time period, but I am indeed grateful for your input.

4 hours and I minute for the journey that you state gives the term "semi-fast" a whole new meaning for a Blackpool to Manchester journey.

 

[Nym]

If its the case that 2tphpd can be acheived with current infrastructure, why not run
6/8 car shuttles between Bolton and Victoria at 2tph. 1tph extended all stations to Preston.
Blackburn terminating in Platform 1.
Southport to Airport diverted via Atherton.
2/1tph all stations to Wigan Wallgate terminating at Bolton
1tph Blackpool North to Airport diverted via Eccles.
If available, Preston to Hazel Grove diverted via Eccles, EMU run.
1tph Chorley to Preston.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

4 hours and I minute for the journey that you state gives the term "semi-fast" a whole new meaning for a Blackpool to Manchester journey.

My mistake - can't read a 12-hour timetable any more! Left Blackpool C at 1600.
2h1m is not too bad really. On the local line it only stopped at Tyldesley.

 

[lancastrian]

Going back into deepest corners of my memory banks, did the LNWR/LMS ever run a service from Blackpool, down the WCML from Preston to Wigan North Western, then via the stations at Platt Bridge, Hindley Green, Howe Bridge, Tyldesley, Ellenbrook, Worsley, Monton Green, Eccles, then onwards to Manchester Exchange ?

The sad thing is that until 1966 there was a perfectly decent route that avoided Bolton and still gave a reasonable Manchester - Blackpool service. In fact some of the Club Trains used this route as they where non stop from Salford Central to Lytham.

The route uses the Atherton Line as far as Dobbs Brow Junction, then on to the Dicconson Lane Line until it joins the main Bolton to Preston Line at Horwich Fork Junction.

If this line was still open, then the Manchester - Blackpool services could have continued throughout the Farnworth Tunnel work, without the need for Buses in the middle of the journey.

I accept that Bolton services would have been difficult, but a Preston to Bolton all stations Shuttle service would have solved that one.

Yet again another example of Dr. Beechings, completely flawed concept of scrapping parallel routes. The costs of replacement of these will be far more than was ever saved by these ill though out closures of the 1960's.

 

[northwichcat]

4 hours and I minute for the journey that you state gives the term "semi-fast" a whole new meaning for a Blackpool to Manchester journey.

If that was the journey time by rail then I'm sure Stagecoach Lancashire wouldn't have stopped their direct Blackpool to Manchester services. Although they might have reduced the number of £1+50p booking fee Megabus fares on it if it was faster than the train!

 

[Bevan Price]

Going back into deepest corners of my memory banks, did the LNWR/LMS ever run a service from Blackpool, down the WCML from Preston to Wigan North Western, then via the stations at Platt Bridge, Hindley Green, Howe Bridge, Tyldesley, Ellenbrook, Worsley, Monton Green, Eccles, then onwards to Manchester Exchange ?

Yes - that was one of several routes used between Blackpool or Preston & Manchester. Other routes used included Preston - Chorley - Horwich Fork Jn - Atherton - Manchester, and Preston - Standish Jn - Whelley - De Trafford Jn - Hindley - Atherton - Manchester.

 

[Brian1947]

How to report negative progress - an item found on the BBC regional text service today states there will be disruption to services between Manchester and Preston for the next two years caused by electrification work, with fewer TPE trains able to call at Chorley, Lostock & Horwich Parkway.

No mention of Bolton or how Northern trains might be affected!

Unbelievably it then stated that diesel trains would not be able to operate under the wires!

 

[L+Y]

Yet again another example of Dr. Beechings, completely flawed concept of scrapping parallel routes. The costs of replacement of these will be far more than was ever saved by these ill though out closures of the 1960's.

Will be?

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I don't see the rail network reaching anything close to its pre-Beeching size in my lifetime. And I'm 21.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Will be?

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I don't see the rail network reaching anything close to its pre-Beeching size in my lifetime. And I'm 21.

No, neither can I, its so difficult getting a line reopened even if there is trackbed with track on it let alone starting from scratch

Example of that is the March to Wisbech line, believe there is another one round the Bristol area as well

 

[6Gman]

The sad thing is that until 1966 there was a perfectly decent route that avoided Bolton and still gave a reasonable Manchester - Blackpool service. In fact some of the Club Trains used this route as they where non stop from Salford Central to Lytham.

The route uses the Atherton Line as far as Dobbs Brow Junction, then on to the Dicconson Lane Line until it joins the main Bolton to Preston Line at Horwich Fork Junction.

If this line was still open, then the Manchester - Blackpool services could have continued throughout the Farnworth Tunnel work, without the need for Buses in the middle of the journey.

I accept that Bolton services would have been difficult, but a Preston to Bolton all stations Shuttle service would have solved that one.

Yet again another example of Dr. Beechings, completely flawed concept of scrapping parallel routes. The costs of replacement of these will be far more than was ever saved by these ill though out closures of the 1960's.

Yeah, what a fool! Failing to anticipate some engineering work 50 years later!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yeah, what a fool! Failing to anticipate some engineering work 50 years later!

It is fairly easy to predict that a rail route will require heavy engineering disruption within 50 years. That is called common sense to be fair!

 

[Eagle]

It is fairly easy to predict that a rail route will require heavy engineering disruption within 50 years. That is called common sense to be fair!

Rail lines that will require significant engineering works at least once within the next 50 years:

• Almost all. of them

 

[YorkshireBear]

Rail lines that will require significant engineering works at least once within the next 50 years:

• Almost all. of them

And almost is only said as a disclaimer. It really is all of em....

 

[chorleyjeff]

It is fairly easy to predict that a rail route will require heavy engineering disruption within 50 years. That is called common sense to be fair!

So all rail lines should be duplicated with parallel lines?
As a taxpayer I disagree.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So all rail lines should be duplicated with parallel lines?
As a taxpayer I disagree.

As a human being with a brain i also disagree. I was merely pointing out that it is easy to predict engineering works.... They are a fact of life i wasn't suggesting that we parallel all lines.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Going back into deepest corners of my memory banks, did the LNWR/LMS ever run a service from Blackpool, down the WCML from Preston to Wigan North Western, then via the stations at Platt Bridge, Hindley Green, Howe Bridge, Tyldesley, Ellenbrook, Worsley, Monton Green, Eccles, then onwards to Manchester Exchange ?

Yes. The L&Y and LNWR continued their separate lives well into BR days - AKA LMS (Central) Division and LMS (Western) Division.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Just read the BBC news article, apparently Network Rail have contacted the BBC and pointed out all the wrong things in the article, but it has yet to be changed!

Article is very poor.