Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[GRALISTAIR]

Of course this a Manchester -Blackpool electrification thread but once the wires are up NLW-Liverpool and via Huyton, we have Liverpool -Blackpools electrified too. During illuminations time I could see a Liverpool -Blackpool South getting heavily used.

 

[PR1Berske]

Of course this a Manchester -Blackpool electrification thread but once the wires are up NLW-Liverpool and via Huyton, we have Liverpool -Blackpools electrified too. During illuminations time I could see a Liverpool -Blackpool South getting heavily used.

Direct?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Direct?

Why not?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why not?

The formal answer is that it is not in Northern's franchise spec.
And it couldn't be pathed without disrupting the existing Colne and Liverpool services.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The formal answer is that it is not in Northern's franchise spec.
And it couldn't be pathed without disrupting the existing Colne and Liverpool services.

Good grief I have been out of the UK too long. It really does seem that the railway is at capacity and that the franchise system whilst offering some benefits is also restrictive. Oh well - oh dear -and thanks for explaining.

 

[PR1Berske]

"It really does seem that the railway is at capacity"

Well, no, it's not but I don't want to take the thread off topic

Northern can run from Liverpool to Wigan, and Liverpool to Preston/Blackpool North, though.

 

[Bevan Price]

Surely with either an new island or the existing parcels platform East Lancs trains wouldn't touch the fast lines, as they would continue to bridge over the main line at Farington?

I think it would need more than diversion to Manchester to increase the usage of the Blackpool South line. Blackpool North has a more frequent service to Manchester using better quality units and electrification will increase this gap even more.

I think the main increase in usage would be St. Annes & Lytham to Manchester line, rather than more passengers going from Blackpool to Manchester. There might also be some increases in travel from Lytham & St. Annes to Blackpool, if a "new" Blackpool Central could be built.

At present, Lytham / St. Annes to Blackpool town centre is pointless by train, because when you get to South, you have to walk (over a mile), or catch a bus - many of which originate in Lytham or St. Annes anyway, so you might as well travel the whole way by bus.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At present, Lytham / St. Annes to Blackpool town centre is pointless by train, because when you get to South, you have to walk (over a mile), or catch a bus - many of which originate in Lytham or St. Annes anyway, so you might as well travel the whole way by bus.

A journey made by many residents who accept this as the norm.

 

[Darren R]

The rule of thumb for installing OHLE is £1m per single track kilometre.

Don't come cheap, do it? I must admit I had failed to take into consideration all the bridges on the Blackpool South line - and there are a lot. Although it's difficult to tell from the train, I don't think any of them are arched and they are all rather low. I suspect most of them would need raising.

Mention has been made of Preston station amidst the little wandering off-topic. There is currently the old disused R.E.S. platform to the west of the current platform 1. Ignoring anything that may need to be done to bring it up to scratch, is there any reason why this can't be re-opened? Trains from Blackburn and Ormskirk join the slow lines at Farrington Curve - theoretically northbound they could use the RES platform to either terminate or run on to Blackpool without interfering with other services.

Are there any remodelling works planned at Preston as part of the electrification? Isn't the Preston area due for major resignalling works soon anyway, since Preston PSB is nearing the end?

 

[edwin_m]

Mention has been made of Preston station amidst the little wandering off-topic. There is currently the old disused R.E.S. platform to the west of the current platform 1. Ignoring anything that may need to be done to bring it up to scratch, is there any reason why this can't be re-opened? Trains from Blackburn and Ormskirk join the slow lines at Farrington Curve - theoretically northbound they could use the RES platform to either terminate or run on to Blackpool without interfering with other services.

Are there any remodelling works planned at Preston as part of the electrification? Isn't the Preston area due for major resignalling works soon anyway, since Preston PSB is nearing the end?

The westernmost tracks are designated as goods lines so couldn't be used by passenger trains except by special arrangement. There are various signalling rules that don't apply to goods lines, so upgrade for passenger use could be quite expensive depending how many of those rules would have to be applied retrospectively.

I've not heard of any re-signalling plans for Preston - thought it was one for life extension?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the main increase in usage would be St. Annes & Lytham to Manchester line, rather than more passengers going from Blackpool to Manchester. There might also be some increases in travel from Lytham & St. Annes to Blackpool, if a "new" Blackpool Central could be built.

At present, Lytham / St. Annes to Blackpool town centre is pointless by train, because when you get to South, you have to walk (over a mile), or catch a bus - many of which originate in Lytham or St. Annes anyway, so you might as well travel the whole way by bus.

Lytham/St Annes to Manchester would require through service which in practice means electrification and diversion of some of the Blackpool North trains. And I agree an extension to the centre of Blackpool, whether train or tram-train, would be essential for that end of the line to be much use.

While I think this would be a good scheme I don't think it's going to be high on the list for financial and technical resources. As it stands it has one train per hour, which is very efficiently diagrammed and even when the North line is electrified only a small part of Blackpool-Colne will be under the wires. Someone would have to take a leap of faith on electrifying, changing the track layout and increasing the service and it sounds like quite a big risk when there are many other lines much more worth of upgrade based on the proven traffic they carry now.

 

[WatcherZero]

There is something in the works for Preston to speed up the station throat I think.

 

[driver9000]

There is something in the works for Preston to speed up the station throat I think.

2017/18 for remodelling Preston so I'm told.

 

[Whistler40145]

So, Blackpool North to Preston should already be electrified prior to any remodelling takes place?

AFAIK, North Fylde Line re signalling has been brought forward to be completed alongside electrification. Network Rail are proposing a two month long blockade on the line & will carry out remodelling at Blackpool North, increasing line speeds in appropriate locations, also closing all remaining signal boxes, replacing semaphore signals with colour light signals & transfer control to Preston Power Box until East Manchester Signalling Centre takes control.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

2017/18 for remodelling Preston so I'm told.

Is that still the case with the re-control put back to 2027?

 

[WatcherZero]

I think they are still proposing modest track realignments but without a full signalling renewal.

 

[driver9000]

Is that still the case with the re-control put back to 2027?

As far as I know. There is supposed to be work around then which at least should hopefully lift the long standing TSR through the station or at least raise the slow lines from 20mph to nearer the normal 35mph.

 

[Whistler40145]

Going back to the subject of Farnworth Tunnels, instead of bi-directional working through the larger tunnel, why not run trains Preston-Bolton & Bus Bolton-Salford Crescent/Manchester Victoria, then any other works could be done in one blockade & hopefully finish earlier.

 

[Nym]

Going back to the subject of Farnworth Tunnels, instead of bi-directional working through the larger tunnel, why not run trains Preston-Bolton & Bus Bolton-Salford Crescent/Manchester Victoria, then any other works could be done in one blockade & hopefully finish earlier.

Because whichever way you go, in the two/three hours of am and pm peaks; it takes at least an hour to do Bolton - Salford Crescent...

A better solution would be to run a shuttle between Bolton and Atherton or Walkden and provide shuttles between there and Victoria / Oxford Road.

Alternatiely, put in a bit of trackwork so that services could head North from Bolton to Lostock Jcn, then curve back before Hindley and head back through Atherton to Salford Jcns.

But by the time you've done that, bi-di between Farnworth and Bolton Station S Jcns and a crossover south of Farnworth (could be locally operated by groundframe with token working in the bi-di section, but for the length of works it might be worth signalling properly) and running 2/3tph of 6 car services. Rail replacement bus services for Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley for most the day, possibly stopping some services in the peaks.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Alternately, put in a bit of trackwork so that services could head North from Bolton to Lostock Jcn, then curve back before Hindley and head back through Atherton to Salford Jcns.

The costs involved in "the bit of trackwork" that is to be the new Todmorden Chord is one to consider when evaluating the total infrastructural and signalling costs of the section to which you allude in the highlighted part of your quote above.

 

[Nym]

The costs involved in "the bit of trackwork" that is to be the new Todmorden Chord is one to consider when evaluating the total infrastructural and signalling costs of the section to which you allude in the highlighted part of your quote above.

Emergency Use Only or non-perminant semi-fabricated points with a 5mph PSR crossing over them are not as expensive as a perminant, signalled installation with single cast pointwork and groundframes.

 

[snail]

Alternately, put in a bit of trackwork so that services could head North from Bolton to Lostock Jcn, then curve back before Hindley and head back through Atherton to Salford Jcns.

"Sledgehammer to crack a nut" comes to mind. As the previous post suggests, how much is your plan compared to a replacement bus service? It's not like it would be useful afterwards.

 

[Nym]

"Sledgehammer to crack a nut" comes to mind. As the previous post suggests, how much is your plan compared to a replacement bus service? It's not like it would be useful afterwards.

Depends on NR's willingness to put in tempory pointwork and hand signal, the advantages of an ongoing posession compared with weekends, and just how much it will all cost. LUL has proven several times that one long posession is significantly cheaper than several weekend ones, and the worktime is much shorter.

Perhaps one could impliment hand or token signalling between junctions at Salford Crescent and Bolton Station Jcns and operate as single track between, no pointwork required...

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Depends on NR's willingness to put in tempory pointwork and hand signal, the advantages of an ongoing posession compared with weekends, and just how much it will all cost. LUL has proven several times that one long posession is significantly cheaper than several weekend ones, and the worktime is much shorter.

Perhaps one could impliment hand or token signalling between junctions at Salford Crescent and Bolton Station Jcns and operate as single track between, no pointwork required...

One single line section Windsor Bridge North to Burnden Junction? You may as well close it for the duration!

The civil engineering works at Farnworth will take five to six months if all goes well, with no hope of working in Rules of the Route. Six months is not an appropriate duration to consider handsignalling an intensive passenger service over a single line. Ergo, an effectively permanent solution is required.

 

[Whistler40145]

Network Rail should completely close Bolton to Salford Crescent instead of messing around with single line working through Farnworth. The only passengers required to travel on the effected section should be those travelling from intermediate stations between Salford Crescent & Bolton & those for Blackburn.

All other services should be diverted via Wigan if travelling to Preston, so no trains need to go anywhere near Bolton.

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[TOCDriver]

Network Rail should completely close Bolton to Salford Crescent instead of messing around with single line working through Farnworth. The only passengers required to travel on the effected section should be those travelling from intermediate stations between Salford Crescent & Bolton & those for Blackburn.

All other services should be diverted via Wigan if travelling to Preston, so no trains need to go anywhere near Bolton.

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That's quite a few extra services to go up a busy WCML though

 

[Nym]

How much would it be to either;

Put a curve in a curve at Westhaughton, so services could run from Bolton via Lostock Jcn and Atherton.

or;
Put in very good reversing facilities at Hindley, for the same again.

 

[Whistler40145]

I would introduce a temporary timetable, FTPE would operate from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport (1tph) either via Walkden or Eccles & Northern's Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria would terminate at Bolton, 1 non stop direct bus to Manchester Victoria, 1 limited stop to Manchester Victoria calling at Salford Crescent & an all stations bus to Manchester Victoria.

So, could the WCML fit in a Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service?


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[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would introduce a temporary timetable, FTPE would operate from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport (1tph) either via Walkden or Eccles

How often, if ever, have the First TPE Class 185 units passed through Walkden station ? A good photo opportunity at Hag Fold for those expert in that hobby.

 

[PR1Berske]

*Can* TPE run on the Walkden line?

 

[TOCDriver]

*Can* TPE run on the Walkden line?

Yes, it's one of their diversionary routes. A TPE service runs down it each late evening