Better rail connection to Heathrow.

[Mgameing123]

Perhaps I'm looking at a different coach but Google Maps reports the RailAir from Reading to Terminal 3 as taking 1 hour - up to 1hr13 at busier times

Yeah I think if your travelling to T5 then Railair is the better option meanwhile T2 & 3 the Elizabeth Line wins.

 

[lachlan]

Yeah I think if your travelling to T5 then Railair is the better option meanwhile T2 & 3 the Elizabeth Line wins.

I will keep that in mind - thanks!

 

[Howardh]

When HS2 finally opens, it might be faster and easier to get from Heathrow to Manchester than Heathrow to Gatwick. That should be a priority, linking Gatwick (and the SE) with Heathrow by rail but financially it looks impossible. Perhaps more flights to Gatwick are needed for connections?

 

[supervc-10]

I wouldn't support a link to GWR unless there's no impact on mainline trains or a high-speed diversion via Heathrow can beat the journey time of the existing line. I travel by train a lot more than by plane so would rather any additional capacity be used to make the train more frequent.

If HS2 was routed via Heathrow there would have been merit in diverting the GWR main line to interchange with it but now we have Old Oak Common.

I would be suggesting that the existing Elizabeth Line T5 terminating services continue onwards to Reading - of course, this may have issues with paths but my understanding is that the GWML (both fasts and slows) are a fair bit quieter west of Airport Junction anyway? Could run semi-fast to Reading skipping at least Taplow and Burnham, maybe only stopping at Slough (although Maidenhead is also a sizable town). The existing Lizzie Line services would be added to, not existing services degraded, and no changes to the GWR services.

All, of course, highly speculative!

When HS2 finally opens, it might be faster and easier to get from Heathrow to Manchester than Heathrow to Gatwick. That should be a priority, linking Gatwick (and the SE) with Heathrow by rail but financially it looks impossible. Perhaps more flights to Gatwick are needed for connections?

There's very little, if any, need for connections from Gatwick itself to Heathrow. The only airline that might offer you a connection is BA, and their Gatwick operation is almost entirely aimed at non-connecting passengers. It's not too bad a connection if you do decide to self-connect- there are coaches, or you can Thameslink to Farringdon and then Lizzie Line to Heathrow.

 

[Topological]

I would be suggesting that the existing Elizabeth Line T5 terminating services continue onwards to Reading - of course, this may have issues with paths but my understanding is that the GWML (both fasts and slows) are a fair bit quieter west of Airport Junction anyway? Could run semi-fast to Reading skipping at least Taplow and Burnham, maybe only stopping at Slough (although Maidenhead is also a sizable town). The existing Lizzie Line services would be added to, not existing services degraded, and no changes to the GWR services.

All, of course, highly speculative!


There's very little, if any, need for connections from Gatwick itself to Heathrow. The only airline that might offer you a connection is BA, and their Gatwick operation is almost entirely aimed at non-connecting passengers. It's not too bad a connection if you do decide to self-connect- there are coaches, or you can Thameslink to Farringdon and then Lizzie Line to Heathrow.

The paths should exist on the GWML. However, the capacity has been used a lot by two-line running when there have been issues with the track. Of course, fixing the Reading to Paddington section to avoid track issues has been a big topic for a long time now.

For Gatwick, it is surprising how long it takes to do Elizabeth Line and then Thameslink. I have tried it a couple of times, but was surprised how long it took. I do not know if there is a need to speed it up though.

 

[deltic]

Need to consider where people using Heathrow travel to and from within the UK. In 2023 of the 58m terminating or orginating passegners (ie excluding interlining) 30m are travelling to and from Greater London. Just 600k travel to and from the North West, 1.8m to/from West Midlands and 4.1m from the South West and 4.7m from East of England. Improving access from the latter two regions would seem to the priority.

 

[Mikey C]

Need to consider where people using Heathrow travel to and from within the UK. In 2023 of the 58m terminating or orginating passegners (ie excluding interlining) 30m are travelling to and from Greater London. Just 600k travel to and from the North West, 1.8m to/from West Midlands and 4.1m from the South West and 4.7m from East of England. Improving access from the latter two regions would seem to the priority.

Yes, from the north of England most people would use either a local airport for shorthaul/charter type flights, or direct and connecting flights from Manchester.

A connecting flight from Manchester via say Dubai or Amsterdam (or Heathrow) is easier than trekking down to London on the train or Motorway. HS2 will give better links between Manchester and Heathrow, so reducing the need for connecting flights via Heathrow, but it's still quite an attractive option, and HS2 won't impact connecting flights outside of the UK.

In a similar vein, since Eurostar opened I've only flown LHR to Paris once, when I had a connecting flight on Air France via CDG. Flying all the way is way easier, and way less stressful than getting to CDG by rail as a separate journey.

 

[cactustwirly]

Perhaps I'm looking at a different coach but Google Maps reports the RailAir from Reading to Terminal 3 as taking 1 hour - up to 1hr13 at busier times

I was looking at T5 as it's the busiest terminal

 

[Palmerston]

There exist dedicated coach links from Woking and Reading to Heathrow already, so better ticketing and advertising of those will satisfy the rail demand from the wider network

This is just a single anecdote but I once got the coach link from Woking and it was so slow I have never taken it since. A direct line would, I think, take a fair amount of the 4m passengers from the southwest mentioned above.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is just a single anecdote but I once got the coach link from Woking and it was so slow I have never taken it since. A direct line would, I think, take a fair amount of the 4m passengers from the southwest mentioned above.

The ‘South West’ in that context is the formal South West govermental region; a significant majority of those 4m or so passengers will be on rail lines that serve Paddington (and OOC) rather than Woking.

 

[fandroid]

I really doubt the Piccadilly Line would be able to handle more passengers. I think only the Elizabeth Line would be able to be extended.

I'm always mystified by this notion that the Piccadilly Line can't be extended past Heathrow due to capacity issues. The capacity problems are eastward from Heathrow to London. Any extensions westward would serve local demand to and from Heathrow, and not be clogged up by the badly informed taking the slowest possible route all the way. My thoughts have always been on extending the Piccadilly to West Drayton, with Uxbridge as an eventual target.

As for a Staines connection, just extending the Elizabeth Line there would tap into plenty of transfers off the fairly dense SWR network. Services shouldn't go further until big infrastructure improvements happen further out.

As a regular flyer to Europe, I always appreciate the few airports there that are truly plugged into Intercity rail services. Frankfurt and Schiphol are the best I've used. Cologne/Bonn has a station on a high speed line but but I've never used it. Dusseldorf airport has the station but Intercity trains don't stop there!

Munich is a busy airport, but it's too far out with only slowish S-Bahn services connecting to Munich Hbf.

In the UK, Birmingham Airport is fairly good for trains.

Coaches to/from Heathrow are generally quite good. I often use the two Railair routes from Reading and Woking. The former is much more reliable now that the M4 is a "smart" motorway as far as the A329(M) junction. However, the Woking service is plagued by M25 congestion and any roadworks on the normal road network (especially as it serves Guildford too). The Oxford coach is normally fine. The waiting area for coaches/buses at T5 is appalling. Heathrow needs to invest in a proper comfortable waiting facility like that at Central Bus station. Even there, an extra departures board would benefit the 50% of seated passengers who currently can't see one!

 

[Mgameing123]

I'm always mystified by this notion that the Piccadilly Line can't be extended past Heathrow due to capacity issues. The capacity problems are eastward from Heathrow to London. Any extensions westward would serve local demand to and from Heathrow, and not be clogged up by the badly informed taking the slowest possible route all the way. My thoughts have always been on extending the Piccadilly to West Drayton, with Uxbridge as an eventual target.

As for a Staines connection, just extending the Elizabeth Line there would tap into plenty of transfers off the fairly dense SWR network. Services shouldn't go further until big infrastructure improvements happen further out.

As a regular flyer to Europe, I always appreciate the few airports there that are truly plugged into Intercity rail services. Frankfurt and Schiphol are the best I've used. Cologne/Bonn has a station on a high speed line but but I've never used it. Dusseldorf airport has the station but Intercity trains don't stop there!

Munich is a busy airport, but it's too far out with only slowish S-Bahn services connecting to Munich Hbf.

In the UK, Birmingham Airport is fairly good for trains.

Coaches to/from Heathrow are generally quite good. I often use the two Railair routes from Reading and Woking. The former is much more reliable now that the M4 is a "smart" motorway as far as the A329(M) junction. However, the Woking service is plagued by M25 congestion and any roadworks on the normal road network (especially as it serves Guildford too). The Oxford coach is normally fine. The waiting area for coaches/buses at T5 is appalling. Heathrow needs to invest in a proper comfortable waiting facility like that at Central Bus station. Even there, an extra departures board would benefit the 50% of seated passengers who currently can't see one!

A Piccadilly Line extension would still attract more ridership on the existing section of the Piccadilly Line due to rip off prices at SWR.

 

[embers25]

HEX is a vastly overpriced service taking up valuable line space.

Until the western spur to Heathrow gets built (if it ever does), GWR should stop some trains at Hayes on the fast platforms (the Oxford, Didcot and Newbury ones maybe) to enable regular, fast connection to Heathrow and then Railair Reading could be removed for good.

If a couple of mins extra to stop at Old Oak is fine, why isn't it fine to add a far more useful Hayes&Harlington stop.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think the continuation of HEx is really in the state's interest.

The paths the express service uses are extremely expensive to provide, almost certainly much greater than the access fees the service provides. I think the public interest would be better served in just extending four more Elizabeth Line trains to Heathrow over the slow lines each hour.

Going from 6 to 10 Elizabeth Line trains to Heathrow per hour would reduce average journey time by 2 minutes by reducing waits. It would reduce worst case times by 4 minutes.

That will significantly mitigate the loss of the HEx speed advantage.

I doubt the owners of the airport are really in much of a position to force the continuation of HEx. They don't really have any leverage.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't think the continuation of HEx is really in the state's interest.

The paths the express service uses are extremely expensive to provide, almost certainly much greater than the access fees the service provides. I think the public interest would be better served in just extending four more Elizabeth Line trains to Heathrow over the slow lines each hour.

Are there (a) the paths on the slow lines, and (b) sufficient Elizabeth line stock to allow doing that? (Much as I agree that would be a much better solution for passengers)

 

[cle]

It might also enable a shake up of stopping patterns, if you had 4tph extra. Either some fasts, or some lore skip stopping to up frequencies along the route, which is booming.

Certainly an Ealing - Hayes - Heathrow pattern would soften the blow of losing HEx. You’d have OOC soon also.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It might also enable a shake up of stopping patterns, if you had 4tph extra. Either some fasts, or some lore skip stopping to up frequencies along the route, which is booming.

Certainly an Ealing - Hayes - Heathrow pattern would soften the blow of losing HEx. You’d have OOC soon also.

Just stop everything everywhere. A look at the timetable shows that not stopping saves almost nothing in times: The stop-everywhere trains typically take 20 or 22 minutes Paddington to Hayes and Harlington. The fast Elizabeth line trains also take up to 22 minutes, though some of them manage it in 17 minutes. As far as I can see, almost all the skip-stopping achieves is make the service provision at most stations worse than it need be.

 

[cle]

You could have A and B patterns. Maybe nothing needs to stop at both Hanwell and West Ealing.

But yes, beyond that it’s very busy and a metro service is ideal.

Reading services need to remain faster though.

 

[signed]

I doubt the owners of the airport are really in much of a position to force the continuation of HEx. They don't really have any leverage.

They own the Heathrow Rail Tunnels so I would say that they have a lot of leverage to retaliate

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't think the continuation of HEx is really in the state's interest.

The paths the express service uses are extremely expensive to provide, almost certainly much greater than the access fees the service provides. I think the public interest would be better served in just extending four more Elizabeth Line trains to Heathrow over the slow lines each hour.

Going from 6 to 10 Elizabeth Line trains to Heathrow per hour would reduce average journey time by 2 minutes by reducing waits. It would reduce worst case times by 4 minutes.

That will significantly mitigate the loss of the HEx speed advantage.

I doubt the owners of the airport are really in much of a position to force the continuation of HEx. They don't really have any leverage.

But then you wouldn't be able to run Elizabeth line services to Reading and Maidenhead.

They own the tracks to the Airport, so in theory they could kick Elizabeth line trains off so yes they do have leverage.

 

[HSTEd]

But then you wouldn't be able to run Elizabeth line services to Reading and Maidenhead.

The only reason I can think of would be lack of additional rolling stock - and since the state is being forced to buy more Elizabeth Line stock anyway to keep Derby open ad infinitum.....
You might have to tweak the slow line stopping patterns, but in extremis everything could stop everywhere if necessary.

They own the tracks to the Airport, so in theory they could kick Elizabeth line trains off so yes they do have leverage.

If they kick the Elizabeth Line trains off that will do enormous damage to their primary airport business.
In addition, any future expansion of the airport, which they very much desire, is entirely within the gift of the state.

It's not a particularly credible threat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==

They own the Heathrow Rail Tunnels so I would say that they have a lot of leverage to retaliate

Ending surface rail service to Heathrow would do major damage to them, and definitively end any chance of the state approving an expansion of the airport.

 

[Topological]

The only reason I can think of would be lack of additional rolling stock - and since the state is being forced to buy more Elizabeth Line stock anyway to keep Derby open ad infinitum.....
You might have to tweak the slow line stopping patterns, but in extremis everything could stop everywhere if necessary.

If they kick the Elizabeth Line trains off that will do enormous damage to their primary airport business.
In addition, any future expansion of the airport, which they very much desire, is entirely within the gift of the state.

It's not a particularly credible threat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==


Ending surface rail service to Heathrow would do major damage to them, and definitively end any chance of the state approving an expansion of the airport.

In such cases there is still the current Elizabeth Line and the Piccadilly Line.

It is all fanciful anyway because the Heathrow Express would be staying as long as Heathrow want it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there (a) the paths on the slow lines, and (b) sufficient Elizabeth line stock to allow doing that? (Much as I agree that would be a much better solution for passengers)

a) no.

 

[signed]

If they kick the Elizabeth Line trains off that will do enormous damage to their primary airport business.

Not really kicking them out, but increasing the cost from the £5/ticket that is now charged, that would be a easy leverage point.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Western link got canned a while back.

I know but hopefully just on the back burner and not forever!

 

[Bald Rick]

Not really kicking them out, but increasing the cost from the £5/ticket that is now charged, that would be a easy leverage point.

Not easy leverage - it is regulated by the ORR.

 

[signed]

Not easy leverage - it is regulated by the ORR.

My bad then

 

[cactustwirly]

The only reason I can think of would be lack of additional rolling stock - and since the state is being forced to buy more Elizabeth Line stock anyway to keep Derby open ad infinitum.....
You might have to tweak the slow line stopping patterns, but in extremis everything could stop everywhere if necessary.

If they kick the Elizabeth Line trains off that will do enormous damage to their primary airport business.
In addition, any future expansion of the airport, which they very much desire, is entirely within the gift of the state.

It's not a particularly credible threat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==


Ending surface rail service to Heathrow would do major damage to them, and definitively end any chance of the state approving an expansion of the airport.

It is a lack of paths, the relief lines are full

 

[HSTEd]

It is a lack of paths, the relief lines are full

The relief line is not currently timetabled for maximum throughput though, capacity is expended on non standardised stopping patterns.
If 4 more trains were going to the airport, rejigging of the timetable would release the capacity necessary to achieve it.

Which is how it will be possible to expend every train to Old Oak Common.

 

[Topological]

The relief line is not currently timetabled for maximum throughput though, capacity is expended on non standardised stopping patterns.
If 4 more trains were going to the airport, rejigging of the timetable would release the capacity necessary to achieve it.

Which is how it will be possible to expend every train to Old Oak Common.

And do both?

The whole thing being academic anyway since HEX is not going anywhere.