Better rail connection to Heathrow.

[Mgameing123]

I think we can all agree that rail connections to Heathrow could be improved. Currently all trains serving Heathrow all go to Central London so here are my proposals:

A. HS3 Paddington - Reading via OOC and Heathrow (any terminal). All GWR express trains will be diverted on this line which would provide a good relief for the GWML between Paddington & Reading which is starting to run out of capacity due to the Elizabeth Line.

B. If HS3 doesn't get built how about converting Hayes & Harlington into a Heathrow Parkway station?

C. Another option is obviously the link between Terminal 5 & Langley.

D. A connection to the Waterloo - Reading Line.

E. Windsor Link Railway.

What do you guys think could improve Heathrow's rail connection?

 

[The Planner]

The Western link got canned a while back.

 

[zwk500]

Move the airport

 

[SynthD]

A: Would it need all express trains? Does it need HS3? Is there anything about the cancelled plan you’d improve? As GWR and EL don’t run on the same lines, what are the capacity issues?

B: Cars aren’t as important as the 80s, Heathrow should build multistorey car parks before going off site. I’d rather see the commercial parts near the station become residential than a car park.

C: What’s different to A, is it light rail?

D: Southern access has been discussed in detail before, do you have changes to the plan?

E: Also previously discussed. Do you have a solution for the water, road, building preservation or rail level problems?

The plans for Western and Southern are from the industry, as good as it’s going to get. What needs improving is the business case, or willingness to spend.

 

[zwk500]

I think we can all agree that rail connections to Heathrow could be improved. Currently all trains serving Heathrow all go to Central London so here are my proposals:

If you're talking about what could be done purely with the objective of giving Heathrow as much links as possible via rail, then the most feasible one from a buildability perspective is probably a link to Staines, but that then throws up a Pandora's box of capacity issues on the SWR lines.
Connecting to the Colnbrook branch is actually awkward as hell because of the limited space to get a tunnel/bridge to the far side of the M25, and the restricted connection to the WCML (building a west-facing link across the golf course would be nice but drives the cost up).
Building any kind of HS/Dedicated link from Reading to Heathrow and diverting all trains that way is going to negatively impact on the majority of journeys using the GWML which are to London, not heathrow.

However, the actual answer to increasing *Public transport* capacity to heathrow is coach links. Heathrow is very well placed for the motorway links, and National Express, Flix, Megabus et al all serve it. From Bristol to Heathrow by coach is 2hrs direct for something like £20-30 each way. The train isn't going to be much faster once you've changed at reading, will certainly not be cheaper, and the luggage space will be much poorer. There exist dedicated coach links from Woking and Reading to Heathrow already, so better ticketing and advertising of those will satisfy the rail demand from the wider network without negatively impacting people who never want to go near the airport unless they're flying.

 

[43096]

I think we can all agree that rail connections to Heathrow could be improved. Currently all trains serving Heathrow all go to Central London so here are my proposals:

A. HS3 Paddington - Reading via OOC and Heathrow (any terminal). All GWR express trains will be diverted on this line which would provide a good relief for the GWML between Paddington & Reading which is starting to run out of capacity due to the Elizabeth Line.

B. If HS3 doesn't get built how about converting Hayes & Harlington into a Heathrow Parkway station?

C. Another option is obviously the link between Terminal 5 & Langley.

D. A connection to the Waterloo - Reading Line.

E. Windsor Link Railway.

What do you guys think could improve Heathrow's rail connection?

As a starting point, a 24hrs per day service on Elizabeth line. As it is now, early flights aren’t reachable by train, which is poor for an airport of global importance.

 

[Mgameing123]

If you're talking about what could be done purely with the objective of giving Heathrow as much links as possible via rail, then the most feasible one from a buildability perspective is probably a link to Staines, but that then throws up a Pandora's box of capacity issues on the SWR lines.
Connecting to the Colnbrook branch is actually awkward as hell because of the limited space to get a tunnel/bridge to the far side of the M25, and the restricted connection to the WCML (building a west-facing link across the golf course would be nice but drives the cost up).
Building any kind of HS/Dedicated link from Reading to Heathrow and diverting all trains that way is going to negatively impact on the majority of journeys using the GWML which are to London, not heathrow.

However, the actual answer to increasing *Public transport* capacity to heathrow is coach links. Heathrow is very well placed for the motorway links, and National Express, Flix, Megabus et al all serve it. From Bristol to Heathrow by coach is 2hrs direct for something like £20-30 each way. The train isn't going to be much faster once you've changed at reading, will certainly not be cheaper, and the luggage space will be much poorer. There exist dedicated coach links from Woking and Reading to Heathrow already, so better ticketing and advertising of those will satisfy the rail demand from the wider network without negatively impacting people who never want to go near the airport unless they're flying.

I just like to remind you that we are talking about the UK's biggest airports with flights to everywhere around the globe. There is demand for good rail links to around the country especially Bristol & the Cardiff area have potential for many air passengers from Heathrow.

 

[The Planner]

I just like to remind you that we are talking about the UK's biggest airports with flights to everywhere around the globe. There is demand for good rail links to around the country especially Bristol & the Cardiff area have potential for many air passengers from Heathrow.

Cleary not if WRATH is cancelled.

 

[Mikey C]

Finish HS2 so that people from all over the midlands and north can get to Heathrow with a simple change at Old Oak Common.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I would create a Heathrow Airport Parkway station between Feltham and Ashford and Increase the size of Hayes and Harrington station, and extend the Piccadilly Line from Terminals 4/5 to each railhead. I don’t buy there’s no demand for rail services to Heathrow. That’s insane considering its employment size and the amount of passengers it caters for. I’d then divert Weybridge services to Woking to connect with such a station.

My HS2 alternative plan suggested extending HS1 domestic services through a crossrail type underground station at St Pancras, and punching through West London down to Heathrow to connect with the SWML somewhere near Farnborough, creating a second Thameslink and linking Kent and Wessex straight to LHR.

 

[Mgameing123]

Finish HS2 so that people from all over the midlands and north can get to Heathrow with a simple change at Old Oak Common.

That's priority number 1. The biggest question though is the West.

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Cleary not if WRATH is cancelled.

Just because the government cancels a project doesn't mean its not important. Its not the first time the government cancelled an important project *cough cough* HS2 to Leeds & Manchester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2024 ==

I would create a Heathrow Airport Parkway station between Feltham and Ashford and Increase the size of Hayes and Harrington station, and extend the Piccadilly Line from Terminals 4/5 to each railhead. I don’t buy there’s no demand for rail services to Heathrow. That’s insane considering its employment size and the amount of passengers it caters for. I’d then divert Weybridge services to Woking to connect with such a station.

My HS2 alternative plan suggested extending HS1 domestic services through a crossrail type underground station at St Pancras, and punching through West London down to Heathrow to connect with the SWML somewhere near Farnborough, creating a second Thameslink and linking Kent and Wessex straight to LHR.

I really doubt the Piccadilly Line would be able to handle more passengers. I think only the Elizabeth Line would be able to be extended.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That's priority number 1. The biggest question though is the West.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2024 ==


Just because the government cancels a project doesn't mean its not important. Its not the first time the government cancelled an important project *cough cough* HS2 to Leeds & Manchester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2024 ==


I really doubt the Piccadilly Line would be able to handle more passengers. I think only the Elizabeth Line would be able to be extended.

Yes that might be better, extending from Terminal 4 down to the Windsor lines (or maybe as far as Woking) and perhaps looping the line from Terminal 5 back to the GWML to Reading.

I also came up with the idea of an Underground line to replace the Superloop bus from Croydon to Heathrow. It would be the only Underground line not serving Central London, but would start at East Croydon and call at West Croydon, IKEA, Carshalton, Sutton, North Cheam, Worcester Park, Tolworth, Surbiton, Kingston, Teddington, Ashford Common, Feltham and Heathrow. Obviously not only would it provide a fast link between Kingston and Croydon but would link up with long-distance trains from Surbiton and East Croydon straight to Heathrow.

 

[zwk500]

I just like to remind you that we are talking about the UK's biggest airports with flights to everywhere around the globe. There is demand for good rail links to around the country especially Bristol & the Cardiff area have potential for many air passengers from Heathrow.

Rail and Public Transport are not interchangeable. For airport transfers, a coach has a number of advantages, which makes the qualitative arguments for rail much weaker. The Elizabeth line was an important step change as it reduced the need to change at Paddington - people could access the Elizabeth line elsewhere. Old Oak will enhance this further as Paddington to Euston is one of the worst transfers.

However, Bristol (in particular) is just in the overlap where whatever the train does, the Coach will always be competitive.

 

[Meerkat]

However, the actual answer to increasing *Public transport* capacity to heathrow is coach links.

Coach links suffer the appalling traffic round Heathrow though. When I used it I was glad I had been massively pessimistic as I was Waiting for ages (with some rather agitated fellow passengers) due to the incoming coaches being enormously held up on the M25.

Linking Heathrow Express to Guildford/Woking would be totally transformational with connections to Heathrow, OOC, and the GWML

 

[lachlan]

I considered the coach but the frequency is low and from what I can tell if your flight i delayed you need a new coach ticket.

Ended up going via Gatwick instead where I could get a flexible rail ticket.

As for improving public transport - HS2 will be a big improvement when Old Oak Common opens.

 

[Topological]

OOC will make a big difference. Hopefully, there will be more capacity to Heathrow.

I would like to see a link from the SWR, but as already noted that seems to have been pushed back.

Having recently arrived into Heathrow and seen mass cancellation of the Elizabeth Line (27th November), a fall back is needed badly. Whether that is an ability to shuttle to Hayes and Harlington without interacting with the GWML I do not know. Technologically, a solution that allowed a shuttle to OOC would be useful. In my head it involves a duplicated signalling of the line so that a failure of the overall system can be backed up with the alternative signals on the short (and self-contained) section.

I did also think that the Heathrow branch from HS2 should have been built. That could have done wonders for removing London to Manchester flights (for example) as well as bringing in passengers from Birmingham and North.

 

[FMerrymon]

Put Heathrow luggage check in desks at OOC in a similar manner to check in desks in Kowloon, Hong Kong. Yes I know Paddington and Victoria used to, but it has worked well in other countries.

Build Southern connection to Heathrow, which would have far greater benefits than just getting to Heathrow.

 

[SynthD]

Yes that might be better, extending from Terminal 4 down to the Windsor lines (or maybe as far as Woking)

Why 4 rather than 5? 4 to Feltham is a largely residential area, 5 to Staines is countryside, and the usual southern access idea.

perhaps looping the line from Terminal 5 back to the GWML to Reading.

Any changes to the usual western access plan?

I also came up with the idea of an Underground line to replace the Superloop bus from Croydon to Heathrow.

95% of that already exists above ground, but missing the third part of a few triangle junctions. As a step towards that, they could try out a direct train service with several reversals. Are you aiming for the people who travel on that bus end to end, or just portions of it?

In my head it involves a duplicated signalling of the line so that a failure of the overall system can be backed up with the alternative signals on the short (and self-contained) section.

If there’s a backup, then the whole GWML can run. But the existing alternatives of coaches and Piccadilly line work truly independently.

 

[Mgameing123]

Yes that might be better, extending from Terminal 4 down to the Windsor lines (or maybe as far as Woking) and perhaps looping the line from Terminal 5 back to the GWML to Reading.

I also came up with the idea of an Underground line to replace the Superloop bus from Croydon to Heathrow. It would be the only Underground line not serving Central London, but would start at East Croydon and call at West Croydon, IKEA, Carshalton, Sutton, North Cheam, Worcester Park, Tolworth, Surbiton, Kingston, Teddington, Ashford Common, Feltham and Heathrow. Obviously not only would it provide a fast link between Kingston and Croydon but would link up with long-distance trains from Surbiton and East Croydon straight to Heathrow.

A. I think the extension from Terminal 4 to the Reading Line should be a merger of the Abbey Wood - Terminal 4 and Ascot - Aldershot services. Then you could provide some very good links around the South West.

 

[Bald Rick]

As a starting point, a 24hrs per day service on Elizabeth line. As it is now, early flights aren’t reachable by train, which is poor for an airport of global importance.

They are reachable by train, you just have to go the night befroe and stay in a hotel. Plenty of people do that here, and at airports all over the world.

 

[cactustwirly]

I considered the coach but the frequency is low and from what I can tell if your flight i delayed you need a new coach ticket.

Ended up going via Gatwick instead where I could get a flexible rail ticket.

As for improving public transport - HS2 will be a big improvement when Old Oak Common opens.

There's a Coach to Reading which runs every 20 minutes and the ticketing is flexible. It's an open return which you can use anytime within 30 days of the outward journey.

It is faster than doubling back via Paddington on HEx

 

[EssexGonzo]

They are reachable by train, you just have to go the night befroe and stay in a hotel. Plenty of people do that here, and at airports all over the world.

The 24 hour idea would be a good start. I understand some of the logistical challenges of a 24h railway but also understand that so many people take a car or taxi for early departures/late arrivals.

I live in Shenfield and have now used EL many times to LHR. But there are a handful of times when I could not do so because of timing. Heathrow hotel costs are a number of factors larger than a single fare from Shenfield to LHR.

There would also be benefits along much of the line for workers and the nighttime economy.

 

[Mgameing123]

There's a Coach to Reading which runs every 20 minutes and the ticketing is flexible. It's an open return which you can use anytime within 30 days of the outward journey.

It is faster than doubling back via Paddington on HEx

I can’t imagine changing from train to coach must be nice with all the luggage people bring. You’re better off changing at Paddington or taking a direct coach. But with a new HS3 this wouldn’t be a huge problem.

 

[zwk500]

I can’t imagine changing from train to coach must be nice with all the luggage people bring. You’re better off changing at Paddington or taking a direct coach.

But with a new HS3 this wouldn’t be a huge problem.

Why does HS3 negate the change penalty? It's still a change.

 

[cactustwirly]

I can’t imagine changing from train to coach must be nice with all the luggage people bring. You’re better off changing at Paddington or taking a direct coach. But with a new HS3 this wouldn’t be a huge problem.

It's not hugely different to taking HEx and changing at Paddington. The luggage goes in the belly of the coach so don't need to find space for it on the train

 

[supervc-10]

Put Heathrow luggage check in desks at OOC in a similar manner to check in desks in Kowloon, Hong Kong. Yes I know Paddington and Victoria used to, but it has worked well in other countries.

Build Southern connection to Heathrow, which would have far greater benefits than just getting to Heathrow.

I don't think there's much point in putting checked luggage counters at OOC. A *lot* of people fly with just cabin bags anyway, and the added handling costs (including security) of taking the bags at OOC, putting them on the train (the correct train - no good sending someone's luggage to T4 when they're flying from T5), off loading them, etc etc is not going to be viable.

Totally agree a southern connection would be sensible though, ideally if it could connect through to the GWML towards the west as well. The combined proposals on this map seems the overall best idea (which, of course, means it won't get built).

The 24 hour idea would be a good start. I understand some of the logistical challenges of a 24h railway but also understand that so many people take a car or taxi for early departures/late arrivals.

I live in Shenfield and have now used EL many times to LHR. But there are a handful of times when I could not do so because of timing. Heathrow hotel costs are a number of factors larger than a single fare from Shenfield to LHR.

There would also be benefits along much of the line for workers and the nighttime economy.

I don't know if the Lizzie Line needs to be 24hr, although it would be nice having it part of the night tube at the weekends. I do think though earlier starts would be sensible. Just taking a look at the current timetable - there's some very early trains out to LHR, but they start at Paddington. And there are some very early trains out of Shenfield, but they go to the mainline platforms at Liverpool Street. Why not run through the core and connect things up? The first train to run westbound through the core is the 0534 out of Stratford, to T4, but why isn't it joined up with the 0503 out of Gidea Park, which stops at Stratford at 0527? Seems like it would make sense to combine those two trains, although I'm sure there's a scheduling reason why not.

Just seems there can be some better joined up thinking.

We live in Stratford, and fly quite often out of LHR (my husband is American, so we are often out to the States) so like you find the Lizzie Line very handy. However, our last trip we had to take the tube both ways due to engineering work. Negotiating a packed Green Park with multiple suitcases is not fun! At least here in Stratford we have the advantage of the night tube - if you are trying to get to Heathrow for an early flight on the weekend when the Lizzie Line isn't running, you can just get up even more crazy early and take the Central and Piccadilly. Did it once for the early flight out to Chicago - it was as grim as you'd expect

 

[lachlan]

There's a Coach to Reading which runs every 20 minutes and the ticketing is flexible. It's an open return which you can use anytime within 30 days of the outward journey.

It is faster than doubling back via Paddington on HEx

Google Maps suggests GWR + Crossrail is quicker than the RailAir coach and you'd already be on a train at Reading anyway, unless I'm missing something? I was thinking more taking a coach the whole way there.

I don't think there's much point in putting checked luggage counters at OOC. A *lot* of people fly with just cabin bags anyway, and the added handling costs (including security) of taking the bags at OOC, putting them on the train (the correct train - no good sending someone's luggage to T4 when they're flying from T5), off loading them, etc etc is not going to be viable.

Totally agree a southern connection would be sensible though, ideally if it could connect through to the GWML towards the west as well. The combined proposals on this map seems the overall best idea (which, of course, means it won't get built).

I wouldn't support a link to GWR unless there's no impact on mainline trains or a high-speed diversion via Heathrow can beat the journey time of the existing line. I travel by train a lot more than by plane so would rather any additional capacity be used to make the train more frequent.

If HS2 was routed via Heathrow there would have been merit in diverting the GWR main line to interchange with it but now we have Old Oak Common.

 

[cactustwirly]

Google Maps suggests GWR + Crossrail is quicker than the RailAir coach and you'd already be on a train at Reading anyway, unless I'm missing something? I was thinking more taking a coach the whole way there.


I wouldn't support a link to GWR unless there's no impact on mainline trains or a high-speed diversion via Heathrow can beat the journey time of the existing line. I travel by train a lot more than by plane so would rather any additional capacity be used to make the train more frequent.

If HS2 was routed via Heathrow there would have been merit in diverting the GWR main line to interchange with it but now we have Old Oak Common.

The RailAir is about 40 minutes
How can Crossrail be faster? It's 40 minutes just to West Drayton

 

[Mgameing123]

Google Maps suggests GWR + Crossrail is quicker than the RailAir coach and you'd already be on a train at Reading anyway, unless I'm missing something? I was thinking more taking a coach the whole way there.


I wouldn't support a link to GWR unless there's no impact on mainline trains or a high-speed diversion via Heathrow can beat the journey time of the existing line. I travel by train a lot more than by plane so would rather any additional capacity be used to make the train more frequent.

If HS2 was routed via Heathrow there would have been merit in diverting the GWR main line to interchange with it but now we have Old Oak Common.

Your thinking of changing to the stopper train at Reading then change at Hayes & Harlington for either the Elizabeth Line or X140 bus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

The RailAir is about 40 minutes
How can Crossrail be faster? It's 40 minutes just to West Drayton

Might be the peak time timetable.

 

[lachlan]

The RailAir is about 40 minutes
How can Crossrail be faster? It's 40 minutes just to West Drayton

Perhaps I'm looking at a different coach but Google Maps reports the RailAir from Reading to Terminal 3 as taking 1 hour - up to 1hr13 at busier times