Belgium: Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

[Bletchleyite]

I used Eurostar on a return trip via Paris last week. I only needed my ticket to open the gates. No inspection by immigration, French or British.

What has the ticket got to do with it? A scan of passport or identity card is adequate to do API - with only two destinations they probably just send it to both.

 

[edwin_m]

Last time I used Eurostar, about a year ago, there were hoardings up at St Pancras with signs saying they were installing automatic passport gates. These would presumably be similar to the airport ones with fingerprint scanning and image recognition, and no doubt also transmit the passport details to some central database. I guess the scanners in the passport booths would do that now.

 

[Groningen]

It is said that traintravel between Copenhagen and Malmo went back with 12 % according the bordercontrol at Copenhagen airport.

 

[MarkyT]

It is said that traintravel between Copenhagen and Malmo went back with 12 % according the bordercontrol at Copenhagen airport.

Assuming that's a total for all rail journeys local and longer distance, I bet the drop of intercity traffic on longer routes such as Copenhagen - Stockholm has flatlined with the end of the through trains. There's no point in catching a shuttle to the airport to pass through customs, then on another over the bridge and then only finally onto your Swedish Intercity at Malmo. Overall its probably slower than the old ferry decades ago and today pointless when they take you straight to the airport where you can board a plane. Taking passengers first to your competitors terminal is absolutely senseless destruction of the whole rail business. I wonder what the CO2 impact has been so far. They built that f_cking bridge to unite the Oresund region, culturally and historically closely tied. They spent billions on it. Mr Jambon seems intent on wreaking the same havoc in Benelux, the very home of free borders and unrestricted travel in Europe. The world has finally gone bananas!

 

[Goldfish62]

What has the ticket got to do with it? A scan of passport or identity card is adequate to do API - with only two destinations they probably just send it to both.

Big sigh. I thought your response inferred that the ticket should be shown as well. I was responding to that. That's all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Big sigh. I thought your response inferred that the ticket should be shown as well. I was responding to that. That's all.

I'm surprised it isn't, but all I was saying was that they do do API and explaining ways it could be being done.


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[berneyarms]

Assuming that's a total for all rail journeys local and longer distance, I bet the drop of intercity traffic on longer routes such as Copenhagen - Stockholm has flatlined with the end of the through trains. There's no point in catching a shuttle to the airport to pass through customs, then on another over the bridge and then only finally onto your Swedish Intercity at Malmo. Overall its probably slower than the old ferry decades ago and today pointless when they take you straight to the airport where you can board a plane. Taking passengers first to your competitors terminal is absolutely senseless destruction of the whole rail business. I wonder what the CO2 impact has been so far. They built that f_cking bridge to unite the Oresund region, culturally and historically closely tied. They spent billions on it. Mr Jambon seems intent on wreaking the same havoc in Benelux, the very home of free borders and unrestricted travel in Europe. The world has finally gone bananas!

Actually, your post is completely wrong.

Direct trains from Copenhagen to Stockholm do still exist with passport checks at Copenhagen but no longer serve the Airport. It's true though that they are fewer in number than prior to the introduction of border controls, but there are at least 5 direct trains per day between the two cities.

Passengers using the local Oresund service to Malmo however do still have to change at the Airport for an ID/passport check.

No checks exist when travelling to Denmark.

 

[Groningen]

It does mean if traintickets have a name on it, that the trainticket cannot be used by someone else. Also the stop of the Thalys in Rotterdam and Antwerpen is 4 and 2 minutes. Nice try to check everyones passport and trainticket in that short amount of time.

 

[MarkyT]

Actually, your post is completely wrong.

It seems I was basing my opinions on the original stopgap services after the sudden imposition. It's good there have been developments.

Direct trains from Copenhagen to Stockholm do still exist with passport checks at Copenhagen but no longer serve the Airport. It's true though that they are fewer in number than prior to the introduction of border controls, but there are at least 5 direct trains per day between the two cities.

I suppose the airport station is already full of local trains and people going though the procedures. It's not a huge imposition to ask a longer distance airport customer to Sweden to make a short step back to Central.

Passengers using the local Oresund service to Malmo however do still have to change at the Airport for an ID/passport check.

So it's the local area where the impact is still being felt the most. Is there any end in sight of the measure? Put in place 'temporarily' ISTR, if it's to become a more permanent feature some further Oresund service redesign must be justified. Allowing customers from Copenhagen to clear at the start of their journeys seems a priority, rather than them having to do an airport shuffle en route. Perhaps segregated portions of otherwise cleared Malmo trains could be set aside for uncleared flyers from Copenhagen using platform screens Like the Brussels-Lille operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does mean if traintickets have a name on it, that the trainticket cannot be used by someone else. Also the stop of the Thalys in Rotterdam and Antwerpen is 4 and 2 minutes. Nice try to check everyones passport and trainticket in that short amount of time.

More likely it will be a platform barrier check.


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[berneyarms]

I suppose the airport station is already full of local trains and people going though the procedures. It's not a huge imposition to ask a longer distance airport customer to Sweden to make a short step back to Central.

Probably easier to take an Oresund service from the Airport to Malmo and connect there rather than going back to Copenhagen.

 

[blackfive460]

No idea if it's connected with this but coming back from Brussels today I was given a slip with my name and passport number plus a UK Border stamp and told to hand it in at St. Pancras.
No bother but at St. Pancras as well as collecting the slips they were also doing passport checks.
I was near the front but by the time I was checked the queue was stationary down the travelator from the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds very Lille loophole related to me.

 

[Goldfish62]

That sounds very Lille loophole related to me.

I'd agree, although the checks seem to be enhanced from what I experienced last year.

I see Man at Seat 61 retweeted an article in French stating that Thalys and Eurostar would be starting a PNR trial later this year.

 

[Goldfish62]

Last time I used Eurostar, about a year ago, there were hoardings up at St Pancras with signs saying they were installing automatic passport gates. These would presumably be similar to the airport ones with fingerprint scanning and image recognition, and no doubt also transmit the passport details to some central database. I guess the scanners in the passport booths would do that now.

I used them the other day. They're e-passport gates for French immigration. Worked fine and eliminate queuing.

 

[33Hz]

No idea if it's connected with this but coming back from Brussels today I was given a slip with my name and passport number plus a UK Border stamp and told to hand it in at St. Pancras.
No bother but at St. Pancras as well as collecting the slips they were also doing passport checks.
I was near the front but by the time I was checked the queue was stationary down the travelator from the platform.

This has happened to me a few times over the last 5 years so definitely not connected to API.


Yesterday I was on the Thalys and there were no checks at all except the usual en route ticket checks. The temporary channel to get into the Thalys platforms at Gare du Midi were unmanned, as usual.

 

[stut]

Probably easier to take an Oresund service from the Airport to Malmo and connect there rather than going back to Copenhagen.

Indeed so - and they're more frequent from Malmo C as well.

Note that the passport control is only the half of it - the peak frequency on the route has halved, leading to some very crowded trains.

What you used to have was a seamlessly integrated system from Helsingor and Copenhagen through the airport, across the bridge to Malmo, and on to other destinations in Skane (plus Gothenburg). Actually, inter-city traffic is relatively low - the big loads come from commuters around Malmo and Lund working in Copenhagen.

But then these regulations came in and... Ouch. The airport station (two platforms on two tracks) was split down the middle with fences going up. All eastbound trains now terminate here, and you had to shuffle up the travelators, then queue to show your ID to contractors (who weren't fully versed in visa regulations - lots of people with less simple immigration statuses got incorrectly turned away) before shuffling back down to the now Sweden-only platform, on to an overcrowded train running every 20 minutes (rather than 10) towards Malmo. With long queues, you may miss the connection and have to wait another 20 minutes.

On arrival at Hyllie (the first station in Sweden), it was initially an utter mess. Temporary crowd fencing had been put up on platforms with trains coming from Copenhagen, so those exiting in Hyllie had to go through Swedish police checks (and those on the train had to have the same, while the train waited for the police to give the all-clear). There were frequent, unpredictable delays. It was never entirely clear what you had to do if you wanted to take this train domestically, so a lot of people went for the Pagatag local trains, then changing in Malmo. It messed up a lot of domestic transport in Sweden, too. In the meantime, things backed up with the slightest delay on the Danish side (as there was now only one platform available for Danish trains). To add to the complexity, trains heading westbound went straight through, but to avoid congestion, they'd skip the airport if things got busy, not helpful if you're going for a morning flight.

Thankfully, the police at Hyllie have taken a back seat. Rather than adding up to an hour to your commute home, it's more like 20 minutes (unless things are busy at Kastrup).

Reductions in numbers are likely due to a number of factors: people changing jobs, people carpooling over the bridge (the tolls are €50 each way for a one-off ticket, but this comes down to €10-22 each way for frequent users - still not insignificant). Buses still attract police searches. Some commuters have bought boats, others from further north have returned to the H-H ferry.

It's not pretty.

 

[MarkyT]

Reductions in numbers are likely due to a number of factors: people changing jobs, people carpooling over the bridge (the tolls are €50 each way for a one-off ticket, but this comes down to €10-22 each way for frequent users - still not insignificant). Buses still attract police searches. Some commuters have bought boats, others from further north have returned to the H-H ferry.

It's not pretty.

Thanks for the detailed report. Is there any sign of an end to this nonsense or is it practically becoming accepted as a permanent feature now? Has anyone tried to do an environmental impact study of what effect the mode shift has had on emissions of greenhouse gasses and local pollutants? Are there any estimates of total lost time to individuals so far, loss of profits to business etc?

Many individuals using small boats will probably result in completely unenvisaged consequence, as these will be impractical to police effectively without large numbers of patrol vessels.

 

[Groningen]

The Flixbus between Copenhagen and Malmo is 5 Euro one way. But only 7.05, 8.30, 19.15 and 20.40. Return at 10.55, 22.15 and 22.30. Traveltime is 1 hour. Maybe there are more.

 

[stut]

Thanks for the detailed report. Is there any sign of an end to this nonsense or is it practically becoming accepted as a permanent feature now? Has anyone tried to do an environmental impact study of what effect the mode shift has had on emissions of greenhouse gasses and local pollutants? Are there any estimates of total lost time to individuals so far, loss of profits to business etc?

Many individuals using small boats will probably result in completely unenvisaged consequence, as these will be impractical to police effectively without large numbers of patrol vessels.

It's got better, as the Swedish police are no longer routinely inspecting trains at Hyllie (although you get random checks there and Malmo C).

The whole thing is felt, around the Oresundsregion, as being an "out of touch Stockholm" thing - the government doing what's best for the capital, and ignoring how Scania works. Malmo is a port city (albeit one fallen on hard times) to its core, and has always welcomed incomers. But it is much more dependent on Copenhagen than Stockholm, and the fact that Stockholm tried to cut this link did not go down well.

It will only change if Sweden's border control policy changes (or Denmark's, in truth). It's sad to see the border there, the NPU predates Schengen by many decades. And that needs a calming of the refugee crisis, or the political attitude towards it. And I don't see that happening in the short term, sadly.

(Note: I no longer work in, or regularly travel to this region, so my more recent information is slightly second hand and out of date...)

 

[stut]

The Flixbus between Copenhagen and Malmo is 5 Euro one way. But only 7.05, 8.30, 19.15 and 20.40. Return at 10.55, 22.15 and 22.30. Traveltime is 1 hour. Maybe there are more.

There's a Graahundsbus as well - and several that pass through when going further afield. I've taken one of the Oslo-bound buses before (really so I could get a view from the bridge from on top, rather than hanging underneath). It's OK - just very slow compared to the train (twice as long, basically) when it's direct.