Belgium: Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

[Quakkerillo]

There is no train from Breda; maybe in future. There is a Thalys from Rotterdam to Antwerpen and so crossing the border at Hazeldonk.

So? There is an active cross-border railway line near Breda, which is what I listed. I didn't say Breda was an active border station, which it isn't. I'm well aware as my parents still live there, while I live in Brussels.

 

[berneyarms]

The official advice from the UK Foreign Office is

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland/entry-requirements



So if you fly from the UK to the Republic Of Ireland, you will be asked for proof of ID. I don't know whether the Irish Government accepts UK driving licences as proof of ID, but I am guessing not otherwise the Foreign Office would have said so in their advice.

If you arrive in Ireland by air from the UK with no proof of ID, then you could still be refused entry.

Coming back from Dublin to London, there was no passport check, but the airline (City Jet) did ask for proof of ID at check in.

Don't know what happens on the ferries from the UK to Ireland, and you certainly don't need a passport to cross the land border, at least until Brexit happens anyway.

For the record, the following ID is valid for UK and Irish citizens travelling between Ireland and the U.K. (As per the Aer Lingus website - EI apply standard rules):

Acceptable **Identification**
If you’re a citizen of Ireland and/or the U.K., you need to carry some form of official photo identification in order to be able to fly with us.

Note: To travel between Ireland and the U.K. with photo identification other than a passport, you must have been born in Ireland or the U.K. and also be a citizen of either country.

The following forms of photo identification are acceptable:

Valid passport
Driver’s licence with photo
International student card
National ID card/government issued photo ID cards
Health insurance cards with photo/social security cards with photo
Bus pass with photo
Work ID with photo
Citizens of Ireland and the U.K. under the age of 16 don’t need a photo ID if travelling with their parent/guardian.

Citizens of countries other than Ireland and the U.K. must produce a valid passport and visa where applicable for travel between Ireland and the United Kingdom.
===================
Now if you travel with Ryanair then everyone needs a passport but that is down to that airline insisting on it.

There are spot checks by UK Border Force on flights in the opposite direction and by both the Irish and UK authorities on the ferries and occasionally buses and trains.

Both countries are now sharing API data on all flights between Ireland and the U.K.

 

[Hornet]

As a British Passport holder living in Dublin, when I travel back to the UK (including NI) I just use my Driving Licence as ID unless i'm flying Ryanair. Have done this for the last 32 years. In the early days (before 9/11) a credit card would suffice. I've often travelled to Belfast without any ID as my fair skin and London accent seemed to convince the local officials, (as well as the British Army), that I wasn't a dodgy character. I once travelled back from Belfast to Dublin by bus. We were pulled over at Dundalk by An Garda Siochana who conducted a document check. Two Chinese nationals, who had forgotten their Passports were hauled off the bus. I showed my Cook Island Driving Licence (you get one for a small fee, after showing your UK licence when hiring a motorcycle or car when you are over there). The Garda didn't bat an eyelid looking at it, maybe because I was in my Leinster Rugby gear at the time.

I must have travelled between the UK and Ireland between thirty and fifty times a year, and can count on the fingers of one hand when I was asked for ID entering the UK either by Air or Land. By Sea it seems that all the dodgy characters must travel that way. As a foot passenger i've always been asked to show ID at Fishguard or Holyhead entering the UK, as a Motorcyclist i've never been challenged on the same routes.

 

[camperdown9]

Hi

Its 22 years since I lived in Belfast but on the few occasions we traveled by car into the republic we were never asked for i.d. and often not even stopped.

Flying into Northern Ireland from England,Scotland or Wales is just a domestic flight. The airline will want to see i.d. but there is no requirement to show a passport on arrival. BUT the PSNI have desks in the arrivals area of Belfast City Airport most of the time they are unused. However once or twice when I have been back to visit family they have stop everyone and asked to see i.d.

I have only flown into Dublin once and we were all asked for i.d.

There is a TV show on one of the Sky channels called "Stop, Search, Seize" its basically an Irish version of the Australian show "Boarder security". In one episode a young guy from England is asked for i.d. on arrival and produces his drivers licence. The person from immigration tells him that a drivers licence is no proof of nationality and asks for a passport, which he doesn't have. She tells ask him to show evidences that he is a UK citizen which he can't do. In the end it a lot of nonsense as she lets him in to Ireland. I just wonder if this is all going to tightened up.

Alex

 

[coupwotcoup]

The French made punitive efforts to impose temporary border controls on the main road between France and Belgium, just past Dunkirk, after one of the Paris attacks.

For some reason, they [French border control] forgot about the coast road...

It would be a waste of time surely, as with all recent atrocities in mainland Europe, the enemy has been within?

 

[33Hz]

Indeed, and let's say the terrorist does give the correct information and buys a flexible ticket for a given train, then at the last minute switches to a different one. Were they going to put police on the platform to stop them? Are they going to stop and check the tickets of everyone before boarding any train? Might they not get on at some unstaffed local station and get into the system before walking on to an international train once inside the ticket barriers? Might they not just get on a domestic train from Molenbeek and shoot that up instead? The whole plan is unenforceable.

 

[infobleep]

This won't stop terrorists, of course.

They can just walk across the border, perhaps after getting off the bus in this picture.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.7...4!1skqy4ajOnMzDfcybmkf_2Ug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The bus runs from the end of one the metro lines in Lille and Armentieres. The border between France and Belgium runs down the middle of the street, so the bus is in France, and the parked cars are in Belgium.

In the Lille area there are several bus services that run across the border, and others that terminate at or near the border.

Not much point in having a rule that applies to trains if it doesn't apply to buses as well.

That's amazing. Didn't know there were towns like that. Would make a good quiz question.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I rather suspect that minds might be concentrated if the EU were to point out that this would interfere seriously with their ability to carry on business in Brussels at short notice - the geographical centre of the EU is no longer where it was, and somewhere like Prague or Bratislava would probably jump at the chance if the EU were to indicate that it was looking at an alternative centre of operations. It would also damage Brussels as a centre for business if it became impractical to hold emergency meetings in Belgium as a consequence.

Surely they would be exempt, just as the smoking ban in the England doesn't apply to the houses of Parliament. I know the have a voluntary code but still. I don't smoke by the way or care for it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For the record, the following ID is valid for UK and Irish citizens travelling between Ireland and the U.K. (As per the Aer Lingus website - EI apply standard rules):

Acceptable **Identification**
If you’re a citizen of Ireland and/or the U.K., you need to carry some form of official photo identification in order to be able to fly with us.

Note: To travel between Ireland and the U.K. with photo identification other than a passport, you must have been born in Ireland or the U.K. and also be a citizen of either country.

The following forms of photo identification are acceptable:

Valid passport
Driver’s licence with photo
International student card
National ID card/government issued photo ID cards
Health insurance cards with photo/social security cards with photo
Bus pass with photo
Work ID with photo
Citizens of Ireland and the U.K. under the age of 16 don’t need a photo ID if travelling with their parent/guardian.

Citizens of countries other than Ireland and the U.K. must produce a valid passport and visa where applicable for travel between Ireland and the United Kingdom.
===================
Now if you travel with Ryanair then everyone needs a passport but that is down to that airline insisting on it.

There are spot checks by UK Border Force on flights in the opposite direction and by both the Irish and UK authorities on the ferries and occasionally buses and trains.

Both countries are now sharing API data on all flights between Ireland and the U.K.

Intresting that they accept a bus pass with photo but not a rail pass, which if a season ticket in the UK, also has a photo.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[edwin_m]

By "bus pass" they may mean a concessionary pass, which is issued by the state and proves someone's entitlement as a citizen of the relevant part of the UK. No proof of citizenship is needed to buy a season ticket.

 

[infobleep]

Indeed, and let's say the terrorist does give the correct information and buys a flexible ticket for a given train, then at the last minute switches to a different one. Were they going to put police on the platform to stop them? Are they going to stop and check the tickets of everyone before boarding any train? Might they not get on at some unstaffed local station and get into the system before walking on to an international train once inside the ticket barriers? Might they not just get on a domestic train from Molenbeek and shoot that up instead? The whole plan is unenforceable.

They would have to spend lots and lots of money creating separate platforms for the international trains so you can get on one. Same for would apply for regional trains that go across boarders.

If anyone trys to get around it, just have a policy of shoot on site no questions asked. I'm not being serious by the way.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[berneyarms]

That's amazing. Didn't know there were towns like that. Would make a good quiz question.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely they would be exempt, just as the smoking ban in the England doesn't apply to the houses of Parliament. I know the have a voluntary code but still. I don't smoke by the way or care for it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Intresting that they accept a bus pass with photo but not a rail pass, which if a season ticket in the UK, also has a photo.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

In Ireland bus and rail was traditionally provided by the same body - CIE, so the terms "bus" and "rail" are interchangeable.

CIE issued ID cards for all season tickets and that's now on a LEAP card here. While it's proof of ID, it's not proof of birth/nationality, but border agents at Irish airports tend to use their judgement to an extent - talking to the individuals.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By "bus pass" they may mean a concessionary pass, which is issued by the state and proves someone's entitlement as a citizen of the relevant part of the UK. No proof of citizenship is needed to buy a season ticket.

As above - it does mean season ticket ID.

 

[jopsuk]

That's amazing. Didn't know there were towns like that. Would make a good quiz question.

The best one is the community of Baarle Hertog and Baarle Nassau, where the border even goes through front doors.

Yes, that's a single house in two countries.

 

[Groningen]

In that enclave you can have the Netherlands in Belgium in the Netherlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How bizarre. How did that work pre-Schengen?

 

[MarkyT]

How bizarre. How did that work pre-Schengen?

Benelux

 

[MarcVD]

DB threatens Belgium to cancel ICE services to Brussels if PNR législation for rail passes :

http://mobile.lesoir.be/1330200/art...ins-fer-allemands-menacent-boycotter-belgique

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[radamfi]

Benelux

When were there last routine border controls between the Netherlands and Belgium?

 

[infobleep]

The best one is the community of Baarle Hertog and Baarle Nassau, where the border even goes through front doors.

Yes, that's a single house in two countries.

So how does that work legally for the house in two countries. Do they have an agreement as to which laws apply. After all there must be stuff legal in one country and not the other?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[farci]

So how does that work legally for the house in two countries. Do they have an agreement as to which laws apply. After all there must be stuff legal in one country and not the other?

Interesting pix in this blog. For an answer to the policing question see post 154123 in this blog

 

[MarcVD]

The applicable législation is the one of the country where the house front door is.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[merry]

DB threatens Belgium to cancel ICE services to Brussels if PNR législation for rail passes :

http://mobile.lesoir.be/1330200/art...ins-fer-allemands-menacent-boycotter-belgique

Interesting - and I'd not be surprised if SNCF consider doing the same (as an aside, note that Brussels Midi already has an IATA airport code; these days Air France 'fly' passengers from Paris CDG to Brussels by train...).

Reading the article, it explicitly states that all transport is to be controlled (bus/boat/train) so the only option to avoid pre-registration controls woudl be road travel.

TBH, the controls seem totally unworkable given the amazing (& near unbelievable) complexity of the territorial interweaving Belgium has with it's neighbours. As someone mentioned, there seems to be a focus on external controls when it's all a bit late: the enemy is already in the country, and can walk or drive in if they wish to anyway.

Actually, I can see a way the road border could be enforced for drivers: ANPR of cars on each crossing road (a la London Congestion charge), with pre-registration for regular users & their typical passengers, could allow regular users to cross without hindrance, and unknown vehicles to be flagged for intercept. Unregistered users would have to use border posts. I suppose this might be extended to facial recognition even for pedestrians (whilst my experience of the UK border's automatic gates makes me doubt how good it can be, the technology used at LAX, Prague & others have worked great, so perhaps it could do the job? Maybe not!).
I guess the enclaves would have special status & be treated as one or other side of a more sane border.

Big Brother is watching you. Or might be on the Belgian border very soon!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Facial recognition is quite hard to do accurately when compared with facial confirmation (i.e. "is this the person in this passport", or "is this one of about 300 Facebook friends" by just checking against each one in turn). So I doubt that would happen any time soon.

 

[MarkyT]

Benelux the home of border free movement reduced to this autocratic police state nonsense. Words fail me. I'm utterly depressed. The terrorist have won if this madness goes through. And the authoritarian nutters will find every excuse to keep the controls in place indefinately. Then it'll be free speech, and who knows what next.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Benelux the home of border free movement reduced to this autocratic police state nonsense. Words fail me. I'm utterly depressed. The terrorist have won if this madness goes through. And the authoritarian nutters will find every excuse to keep the controls in place indefinately. Then it'll be free speech, and who knows what next.

I fear the whole EU will be pressured that way. Then maybe at least there will be one silver lining in the Brexit cloud, namely that we can just ignore it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I fear the whole EU will be pressured that way. Then maybe at least there will be one silver lining in the Brexit cloud, namely that we can just ignore it.

Until we have similar problems with the Scottish/Irish/Welsh borders?

 

[jopsuk]

The applicable législation is the one of the country where the house front door is.

In the example the front door is literally bisected by the border

 

[infobleep]

Interesting pix in this blog. For an answer to the policing question see post 154123 in this blog

That is most fascinating. Possibly one of the most fascinating things I've come across this week.

Bureaucracy to its highest level. If Holland or Belgium governments ever talk about cutting red tape one can point to that town.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Groningen]

It appears that next year Brussel Zuid/Midi, Antwerpen Centraal and Liège Guillemins get gates for international trains and check passengers and the bagage. It appears that they only be used if it requires so (high risk).

 

[duesselmartin]

Even at Midi, controls are lax. Last Werk there was a passport control on board the ICE between Midi and Nord. Total nonsense ad those who boarded Kater were unchecked.
It all looks like the slow end of Schengen.

 

[dutchflyer]

When were there last routine border controls between the Netherlands and Belgium?

Depends what U call 'regular'': for all and every time or random?
For each+all times: even long before BeNeLux itself got officially started-and the last remaining were not the personal checks (in NL ''marechaussee''special police, but rather the tax+excise checks by ''douane''-BNL effectively stopped that (except for other taxes on booze+smokes).
My first train trip on my own out of NL was now over 50 years ago-the old blue BNLset to Antwerp(where else of course) and then there was no check, BeNeLux effetcive a loing time already-somewhere early 50ies.
These was the ''transit'' bus via Belgium from isolated Zeeuws Vlaanderen to Breda and a (BER or NL) douane official road on it from borer to border (no motorways then there yet) to check that noone sneeked out and no smuggling was done.
However, random-aimed checks are still being done-mostly late weekends and for hash-smugglers.

 

[radamfi]

Depends what U call 'regular'': for all and every time or random?

When was the last time you had to show a passport/ID card every time you crossed between the Netherlands and Belgium? Like the way everyone going from France to the UK needs to show a passport/ID card.