Belgium: Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

[33Hz]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...gulation-could-destroy-cross-border-rail.html

Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

BELGIUM: The European Commission, train operators and passenger representative groups have expressed grave concern over draft legislation introduced into the Belgian parliament on September 19 which could threaten the viability of cross-border passenger trains.

Proposed as a reaction to the terrorist attacks in Brussels earlier this year, as well as attacks elsewhere in western Europe, the regulation would extend the airline-style Passenger Name Record requirements to all international trains crossing Belgian borders.

Operators would be expected to collect and submit information on all travellers 24 h in advance, which would preclude same-day ticket sales and completely destroy any prospect of a walk-on service competitive with other surface transport modes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is interesting, because it is stricter than air if that wording is correct. Air PNR data must be submitted a certain period in advance (I half think it's 48 hours) but only if the airline has it then. There is no bar on walking up to airports and buying a flight on the spot to any destination you like; in that case the data is submitted immediately. It's just that almost nobody does it due to the high cost of doing so.

 

[duesselmartin]

If it also applies to regional services, Aachen-Spa eould be killed off straight away, if not one creates loopholes that makes the whole thing seem silly.

 

[33Hz]

Alternatively everyone just shows their passports to on train staff, like the good old days...

Having travelled through Brussels several times since the attacks last year, the way the authorities there have handled security at Midi is an absolute farce.

 

[Quakkerillo]

Alternatively everyone just shows their passports to on train staff, like the good old days...

Having travelled through Brussels several times since the attacks last year, the way the authorities there have handled security at Midi is an absolute farce.

What utter nonsense would this be? I own a yearly student card from Brussels to Roosendaal, the first town in The Netherlands, valid on every train. The time I travel depends on when I finish, and is quite random. I'm already considering changing to Flixbus, as they drive straight to my station (Breda) from Brussels for a cheaper price than my combination of trains, and are faster too.

If this 'passenger detail' stuff is indeed going to be as said here, that's Flixbus for me from now on then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternatively everyone just shows their passports to on train staff, like the good old days...

Having travelled through Brussels several times since the attacks last year, the way the authorities there have handled security at Midi is an absolute farce.

I can't help but think that most of Europe's approach to terrorism is a farce compared with the UK - thing is, we have recent experience in the form of the IRA.

 

[duesselmartin]

I can't help but think that most of Europe's approach to terrorism is a farce compared with the UK - thing is, we have recent experience in the form of the IRA.

Yes, the UK has had more experience, but the UKs aproach to international trains (Eurostar) is not userfriendly either.

 

[duncanp]

This won't stop terrorists, of course.

They can just walk across the border, perhaps after getting off the bus in this picture.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.7...4!1skqy4ajOnMzDfcybmkf_2Ug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The bus runs from the end of one the metro lines in Lille and Armentieres. The border between France and Belgium runs down the middle of the street, so the bus is in France, and the parked cars are in Belgium.

In the Lille area there are several bus services that run across the border, and others that terminate at or near the border.

Not much point in having a rule that applies to trains if it doesn't apply to buses as well.

 

[Howardh]

Apart from Ireland, I know we don't have any cross-border travel anything like Belgium/Holland, but prepare for same with Brexit when wishing to cross the Channel...

 

[duncanp]

.....but prepare for same with Brexit when wishing to cross the Channel...

Not necessarily.

Citizens of certain countries, for example the United States, do not need to apply for a Schengen Visa if staying for 90 days or less.

I would imagine that similar rules will apply for UK citizens after Brexit, as tourism between the UK and the rest of the EU is important economically.

In any case, to cross the channel you have to buy a ferry, train or airline ticket, for which you have to give a name.

When you go through passport control at St Pancras they scan your e-passport, and I would assume that information goes into a database somewhere.

Also I flew from London to Dublin in June, and you have to have a passport for that, because it is checked by Irish immigration officers on arrival.

 

[MarkyT]

What utter nonsense would this be? I own a yearly student card from Brussels to Roosendaal, the first town in The Netherlands, valid on every train. The time I travel depends on when I finish, and is quite random. I'm already considering changing to Flixbus, as they drive straight to my station (Breda) from Brussels for a cheaper price than my combination of trains, and are faster too.

If this 'passenger detail' stuff is indeed going to be as said here, that's Flixbus for me from now on then.

I don't understand who or what this is supposed to protect. If the rules applied to local trains but not buses then that would be a unbelievably stupid loophole especially as there would likely be no passengers to blow up remaining on any local trains anymore as everyone would transfer to the buses just as you would.

For cross border long distance high speed secure check in would be required to ensure no one who hadn't complied with the rules could travel. Security checks alone , particularly on luggage, would be enough to ensure safety although they haven't been adopted by operators after initial trials, so perhaps this is the Belgian Government throwing their weight around effectively saying "if you don't comply we'll introduce even more stringent rules that will destroy your business". Either that or the whole thing is something dreamt up by air industry interests to attempt to screw up the very effective rail competition on busy routes like Thalys. Problem for the industry is much of their high yield earnings comes from short notice business travel, which could be completely lost to air again on lucrative corridors such as Paris - Brussels - Amsterdam if such an imbalance of rules comes about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also I flew from London to Dublin in June, and you have to have a passport for that, because it is checked by Irish immigration officers on arrival.

No you don't (Ryanair's commercial decision that the only ID they accept is a passport aside). It's within the CTA area.

A passport is probably easiest but is most emphatically not required.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't see this being about border control, since there are many other means of crossing the border and a terrorist wishing to transport weapons would most likely just drive with the chances of a stop and search being very remote.

It's probably more about the incident where someone opened fire on board the Thalys last year, and a feeling that ID checks would prevent this. Despite this incident the consequences of any attack are far less devastating on a train than on an aircraft and the risk control measures should be proportionately less too. This merely inconveniences the legitimate traveller and the terrorist will either take the trouble to find a way round it or go for a softer target instead.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I don't understand who or what this is supposed to protect.

Shouldn't someone remind the Belgium government about the freedom of movement principle which the EU is so keen on?

The British Government fell into the same trap. There was a proposal in the days of the Brown government for e-borders which would have required advance notice of travel. So as to cover the Irish Republic without seeming to discriminate against Northern Ireland, they worded an Act of Parliament that it could apply to domestic ferry services as well as international ones. The tabloid press got hold of this and ridiculed it with suggestions that you would need a passport to visit the Isle of Wight.

 

[duncanp]

The official advice from the UK Foreign Office is

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland/entry-requirements

Ireland, along with the UK, is a member of the Common Travel Area. British nationals travelling from the UK don’t need a passport to visit Ireland. However, Irish immigration officers will check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and may ask for proof of nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK. You are therefore advised to take your British passport with you.

So if you fly from the UK to the Republic Of Ireland, you will be asked for proof of ID. I don't know whether the Irish Government accepts UK driving licences as proof of ID, but I am guessing not otherwise the Foreign Office would have said so in their advice.

If you arrive in Ireland by air from the UK with no proof of ID, then you could still be refused entry.

Coming back from Dublin to London, there was no passport check, but the airline (City Jet) did ask for proof of ID at check in.

Don't know what happens on the ferries from the UK to Ireland, and you certainly don't need a passport to cross the land border, at least until Brexit happens anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect some profiling will go on, and that a driving licence would be evidence of identity but not nationality. In most cases nationality will be fairly obvious. I expect a bit of profiling will go on.

Edit: FlyMaybe (!) confirm that a DL is acceptable: http://www.flybe.com/checkin/id-requirements.htm

 

[duncanp]

I agree the advice from the Foreign Office is confusing and contradictory.

"....British nationals travelling from the UK don’t need a passport to visit Ireland.....

....... You are therefore advised to take your British passport with you....."

???????????

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see what's contradictory about it:-

You are not required to take your passport, another form of official ID will do [such as a driving licence]. Therefore you do not need it.

Because your passport is, unlike other documents, certain proof of nationality, you may find it easier if you do take it if you have one, however. This is an option which is likely to make your journey go more smoothly.

 

[endecotp]

Citizens of certain countries, for example the United States, do not need to apply for a Schengen Visa if staying for 90 days or less.

I would imagine that similar rules will apply for UK citizens after Brexit

A better comparison would perhaps be UK & EU passport-holders travelling to the US; I guess you missed this story:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...to-apply-to-visit-europe-under-eu-visa-scheme

British citizens may have to apply online and pay to travel to Europe after the UK leaves the EU, under plans being drawn up by the bloc for a visa waiver programme similar to the US system.

The European commission is due to unveil draft legislation for the EU travel information and authorisation system (Etias) later this year as part of a broader response to calls for greater security across the continent following recent terror attacks in France and Belgium.

The scheme would cover all visitors to the passport-free 26-nation Schengen zone – of which Britain is not a member – from countries that do not need a visa to enter, EU sources confirmed.

France and Germany both back a system based on the US ESTA scheme, under which visitors from countries that do not require full visas must apply online for permission to travel, preferably 72 hours before they leave, at a cost of $14 (£10).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It seems to me that all this strengthens the UK's hand in Brexit negotiations as it demonstrates that freedom of movement is not quite the sacred cow that the Euro-federalists would have us believe it is.

Or perhaps another demonstration of how easily Belgian officialdom gets confused; I suspect their minds would be rather better focused if they did the sensible thing and split into Vlaanderen and Wallonie!

 

[MarkyT]

I suspect their minds would be rather better focused if they did the sensible thing and split into Vlaanderen and Wallonie!

Perhaps they fondly remember centuries of bloody conflict between France and the Spanish Netherlands. While they're at it they could introduce rigorous border control and passport checks in Baarle Nassau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau with its famous enclaves within enclaves, and many other northern European towns where national borders run down the high street and have become practically meaningless to locals in their day to day lives. Singling out rail transport for such extreme measures as 24hr pre-booking as proposed here is frankly bonkers, but that's becoming the new normal in these strange and worrying times.

 

[Groningen]

I have tweeted the NMBS and look forward what their response will be.

 

[didcotdean]

I agree the advice from the Foreign Office is confusing and contradictory.

"....British nationals travelling from the UK don’t need a passport to visit Ireland.....

....... You are therefore advised to take your British passport with you....."

???????????

You do not need to have a passport in order to enter Ireland if you are an Irish or UK citizen. However, to avail yourself of this right you may be asked for valid official photo-identification which demonstrates your nationality - which may or may not be a passport.

 

[jopsuk]

I make it:
7 active cross border railway lines with France. In some of these, people travelling from an address in France to somewhere else in France may have their local station just across the border in Belgium. There's a few disused line as well.
2 with Luxembourg
1 with Germany (plus the sadly disused Vennbahn
5 with Netherlands

Some of these might not have passenger service? Anyway, it's a lot.

It's madness, essentially, trying to maintain any sort of land border control for Belgium

 

[duesselmartin]

Maybe one should pre book the local Aachen to Eupen Bus as well

 

[Quakkerillo]

I make it:
7 active cross border railway lines with France. In some of these, people travelling from an address in France to somewhere else in France may have their local station just across the border in Belgium. There's a few disused line as well.
2 with Luxembourg
1 with Germany (plus the sadly disused Vennbahn
5 with Netherlands

Some of these might not have passenger service? Anyway, it's a lot.

It's madness, essentially, trying to maintain any sort of land border control for Belgium

Only 3 with France (all near Lille), and 3 with Netherlands (Roosendaal/Breda/Maastricht)

 

[Ianigsy]

I rather suspect that minds might be concentrated if the EU were to point out that this would interfere seriously with their ability to carry on business in Brussels at short notice - the geographical centre of the EU is no longer where it was, and somewhere like Prague or Bratislava would probably jump at the chance if the EU were to indicate that it was looking at an alternative centre of operations. It would also damage Brussels as a centre for business if it became impractical to hold emergency meetings in Belgium as a consequence.

 

[Gordon]

While they're at it they could introduce rigorous border control and passport checks... and many other northern European towns where national borders run down the high street and have become practically meaningless to locals in their day to day lives. .

Don't forget such controls have existed in recent memory, namely along the iron curtain and within the eastern bloc countries, where there were many examples of villages cut in half by borders, and the Eastern bloc authorities managed to create tightly controlled frontiers, using fences, border guards etc.



.

 

[jopsuk]

border control as a thing only really started in World War 1. As a concept it's barely been around for a century.

 

[Groningen]

Only 3 with France (all near Lille), and 3 with Netherlands (Roosendaal/Breda/Maastricht)

There is no train from Breda; maybe in future. There is a Thalys from Rotterdam to Antwerpen and so crossing the border at Hazeldonk.