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exile

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I don't think many motorists were fans of Ernest Marples given he introduced yellow lines and parking meters.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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So you think the reports passenger surveys were accurate reflections of the usage of all lines? I'm not denying that someone may have counted only 6 passengers on a train at some point during week ending 23/4/62.

I recall being told - by a member of BR staff - in the early 1970's when travelling to Aberystwyth University that only actual tickets sold on the Cambrian line counted when assessing passenger numbers, so all the holidaymakers (including my family) who travelled to the Cambrian Coast and bought their tickets elsewhere were excluded! Madness!1 - but does anyone know if this was true?
 

Markdvdman

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So you think the reports passenger surveys were accurate reflections of the usage of all lines? I'm not denying that someone may have counted only 6 passengers on a train at some point during week ending 23/4/62.

I recall being told - by a member of BR staff - in the early 1970's when travelling to Aberystwyth University that only actual tickets sold on the Cambrian line counted when assessing passenger numbers, so all the holidaymakers (including my family) who travelled to the Cambrian Coast and bought their tickets elsewhere were excluded! Madness!1 - but does anyone know if this was true?

It is quite possible due to the way figures were discounted. As earlier posts said the auditing was well NOT done, and if you look at the link I posted - if you made a stance you were threatened with your job.

They also ignored some stations with seaside termini where the tickets were bought to go to that destination, and ignored that and closed the station (or line) due to lack of sales FROM that station. Madness but corruption galore and the times contributed!

Sadly, we are now learning at great cost that a lot of what was closed would be critical to REDUCING the road congestion!
 

exile

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Sorry, trips to seaside or other holiday destination stations were only significant for 6 or so weeks out of the 52. It really wouldn't have made much difference.
 

Greenback

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Sorry, trips to seaside or other holiday destination stations were only significant for 6 or so weeks out of the 52. It really wouldn't have made much difference.

Not necessarily. Some of the destinations would have been busier all year for travel to them rather than away from them. We shall never know for sure now.
 

Markdvdman

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Sorry, trips to seaside or other holiday destination stations were only significant for 6 or so weeks out of the 52. It really wouldn't have made much difference.

That may be the case but depends on stations intermediate to it.

Barry Island has a fair few passengers 52 weeks a year, but that was not closed!

The facts are that the audit was atrocious at BEST!
 

Greenback

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I would bet that Windermere is anothe rexample of a station busier with people travelling to it, rather than residents travelling away from it.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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In the early 1960's 'trips to the seaside' were still an important part of BR's business, albeit declining - this would move the debate onto other areas, is a railway service only viable if it has a steady stream of passengers (or whatever) all year? At the time of Beeching holiday trains were pretty busy on the Cambrian (and the Bangor - Afon Wen line) - mind you, my memory of those days could be slightly awry!
 

exile

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In the early 1960's 'trips to the seaside' were still an important part of BR's business, albeit declining - this would move the debate onto other areas, is a railway service only viable if it has a steady stream of passengers (or whatever) all year? At the time of Beeching holiday trains were pretty busy on the Cambrian (and the Bangor - Afon Wen line) - mind you, my memory of those days could be slightly awry!

If you have to pay staff and maintain track etc 52 weeks a year then you're going to need a decent year-round average to break even. The French have a few lines that ONLY open at holiday times and are mothballed the rest of the year but it's not something that's been tried here AFAIK.
 

Greenback

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If you have to pay staff and maintain track etc 52 weeks a year then you're going to need a decent year-round average to break even. The French have a few lines that ONLY open at holiday times and are mothballed the rest of the year but it's not something that's been tried here AFAIK.

The point is, how can you know a year round average based on a count on Tuesday morning in April?

One of the things that wa soverlooke dis that when you close a line to a popular destination, because that destination did not issue enough tickets, the people who were using that line to get to that place would then most likely abandon the railway completely.

That meant traffic lost to the rest of the system as well.

Nobody is saying, as far as I can tell, that all lines that were closed should not have been. The contention is that the methods used were flawed, and I believe that was purposely the case, as there would have been less closures than the government wanted.
 

Markdvdman

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The point is, how can you know a year round average based on a count on Tuesday morning in April?

One of the things that wa soverlooke dis that when you close a line to a popular destination, because that destination did not issue enough tickets, the people who were using that line to get to that place would then most likely abandon the railway completely.

That meant traffic lost to the rest of the system as well.

Nobody is saying, as far as I can tell, that all lines that were closed should not have been. The contention is that the methods used were flawed, and I believe that was purposely the case, as there would have been less closures than the government wanted.

Fully agreed the methods used were incredibly archaic and badly judged!

Porthcawl used to have a feeder from Pyle and was closed - the traffic there can be horrendous at all times of the year - mothballing the line would have been more sensible. These are little things that could be looked at all over the UK. Sad but true (Metallica class track :) )
 

daikilo

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The real failure was not the closing of the lines, but the lack of preservation of the trackbeds. Had they been preserved, there would no doubt be a lot more openings going on right now. Off the top of my head, I can only think of two trackbeds that have been somewhat preserved for future railway use, and even then...

What Beeching, now Lord Beeching, lacked was hidsight. If we had all we know today on energy costs and mode transfer in the early 1960s, railway Britain today may have been a different place.
 

Bittern

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No, he lacked foresight (hindsight -assuming that's what you meant- is exactly what we're doing now - looking back and seeing what could've done), and it wasn't just him. Marples very much lacked foresight as well.
 

Markdvdman

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No, he lacked foresight (hindsight -assuming that's what you meant- is exactly what we're doing now - looking back and seeing what could've done), and it wasn't just him. Marples very much lacked foresight as well.

Foresight was lacking I suspect as they could not predict the VAST increase in population, tallied with the boom of the Tory methodology of screw everyone and let the rich get richer and the poor get poorer! It is where we are today!

Public transport is grossly over expensive, and fuel is overly expensive for car usage and freight usage!

Nobody wins except the magnates.

We need somebody to come in that can change this philosophy. The Tory cutbacks are a joke to RAISE prices of EVERYTHING and cut jobs!

One can only wonder if this Beeching/Marples fiasco slowly catalysed where we are today?

It is a sad world indeed!!!
 

tony_mac

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Foresight was lacking I suspect as they could not predict the VAST increase in population

There has been no vast increase in population; the rate of increase actually slowed down significantly since the 1970s. (It grew 25% in the fifty years before 1961, but only 15% in the fifty years afterwards).
Yes, foresight definitely lacking!
 

anthony263

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Fully agreed the methods used were incredibly archaic and badly judged!

Porthcawl used to have a feeder from Pyle and was closed - the traffic there can be horrendous at all times of the year - mothballing the line would have been more sensible. These are little things that could be looked at all over the UK. Sad but true (Metallica class track :) )

Certainly i think Porthcawl could certainly do with a rail service today especially considering the large increase in holidaymakers there and with the council wanting to regenerate the town.

There is a lot of people who drive to Pyle to catch a train to Cardiff/Newport/Bristol/Swansea and the service X2 Porthcawl - Cardiff is very busy at peak times
 

Greenback

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Certainly i think Porthcawl could certainly do with a rail service today especially considering the large increase in holidaymakers there and with the council wanting to regenerate the town.

There is a lot of people who drive to Pyle to catch a train to Cardiff/Newport/Bristol/Swansea and the service X2 Porthcawl - Cardiff is very busy at peak times

Being a railhead for Porthcawl has contributed to the success of Pyle in terms of passenger numbers. The branch should not have been closed, but it's easy to say that with the benefit of hindisght.

One of the things that came out of the Beeching report was the closure of smaller stations such a sPyle on main lines, so that services could be speeded up. Yet we have reopened many small stations on the South Wales main line to cope with commuting and business trends which could not have been foreseen in 1962, even with a crystal ball!
 

Old Timer

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The real reason the motorways were built was to make money for the construction companies, and then the raod hauliers that would use them to carry the freight that used to be carried by rail!.

After WW2, and with the develoment of the Cold War it was realised that the ability to mobilise the military ould be hampered by a lack of a motorway system in the UK. This can be verified by the Autobahn system in Germany which allowed the Germans to move quickly.

To state that the motorways were built simply to destroy the Railways is simply not supported by any reasonable or rational research.

It is also a fact that the ability of the "ordinary" person to afford a car, together with an increase in the number of former military lorries and ex-servicemen willing to set up road haulage firms had a vbery marked impact on the economics for many of the branch lines closed.

I see once again that despite having debunked the Beeching/Marples/Conservative myth, it is once again necessary to point out that the vast majority of branch lines were actually closed by Mrs Castle the LABOUR Transpot Minister under a LABOUR Government.

Can someone please explain why it appears to be impossible for those of a left of centre viewpoint to accept historical fact ?

Is it an intellectual thing or simply a belief that the facts are less important than a rewrite of history to fall in line with personal beliefs???
 

Gareth Marston

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After WW2, and with the develoment of the Cold War it was realised that the ability to mobilise the military ould be hampered by a lack of a motorway system in the UK. This can be verified by the Autobahn system in Germany which allowed the Germans to move quickly.

To state that the motorways were built simply to destroy the Railways is simply not supported by any reasonable or rational research.

It is also a fact that the ability of the "ordinary" person to afford a car, together with an increase in the number of former military lorries and ex-servicemen willing to set up road haulage firms had a vbery marked impact on the economics for many of the branch lines closed.

I see once again that despite having debunked the Beeching/Marples/Conservative myth, it is once again necessary to point out that the vast majority of branch lines were actually closed by Mrs Castle the LABOUR Transpot Minister under a LABOUR Government.

Can someone please explain why it appears to be impossible for those of a left of centre viewpoint to accept historical fact ?

Is it an intellectual thing or simply a belief that the facts are less important than a rewrite of history to fall in line with personal beliefs???

Always follow the money that tells you the underlying causes. As the railways were already there and rolling stock was built in nationalised in house works on the whole the private sector had no interest in railways. Its said the Conservatives in the late 50's/early 60's had 25% of their donations from the construction/road lobby. It may ave been a natural trend but they wanted it accelerated why else would they fund?

The unions in the construction/motor industry wanting more influence and power are another factor it is not and never has been a left versus right argument.

As the battle element of the British Army was in West Germany at the time or scattered around the empire that as left at the time I'm somewhat at a loss what exactly military wise was in the country to go up and down a motorway network.
 

exile

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Sorry, can we all take our rail forum specs off just for a second? The vast majority of the population, once presented with the opportunity to buy a car, couldn't wait to get one and enjoy the freedom to go when and where they wanteds. No conspiracy theories required. I like trains and like travelling in them when possible, but I accept I'm in a minority.
 

Markdvdman

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There has been no vast increase in population; the rate of increase actually slowed down significantly since the 1970s. (It grew 25% in the fifty years before 1961, but only 15% in the fifty years afterwards).
Yes, foresight definitely lacking!

Uk Population 1964 - 53,991,000
Population now - 62,698,000

That is over 16%.

In a country this size that is a LOT of people!!

It will also get far worse if something is not done. Resources are not limitless!
 

LE Greys

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I see once again that despite having debunked the Beeching/Marples/Conservative myth, it is once again necessary to point out that the vast majority of branch lines were actually closed by Mrs Castle the LABOUR Transpot Minister under a LABOUR Government.

Who, if I remember, had been elected on a mandate to stop the closures.
 

Greenback

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After WW2, and with the develoment of the Cold War it was realised that the ability to mobilise the military ould be hampered by a lack of a motorway system in the UK. This can be verified by the Autobahn system in Germany which allowed the Germans to move quickly.

To state that the motorways were built simply to destroy the Railways is simply not supported by any reasonable or rational research.

It is also a fact that the ability of the "ordinary" person to afford a car, together with an increase in the number of former military lorries and ex-servicemen willing to set up road haulage firms had a vbery marked impact on the economics for many of the branch lines closed.

I see once again that despite having debunked the Beeching/Marples/Conservative myth, it is once again necessary to point out that the vast majority of branch lines were actually closed by Mrs Castle the LABOUR Transpot Minister under a LABOUR Government.

Can someone please explain why it appears to be impossible for those of a left of centre viewpoint to accept historical fact ?

Is it an intellectual thing or simply a belief that the facts are less important than a rewrite of history to fall in line with personal beliefs???

There is no need to turn this into a party political issue. It never was. The preception of the majority of people in power, whether they be politicians, civil servants, business leaders or whoever was that the railway had had its day. As has been pointed out, Labour continued with the closures.

The railways wer elargely seen as going the way of the canals; obsolete and old fashioned in the new exciting world of motrways and the personal freedom of the motor car. I can't criticise the attitude. At that time, there seemed to be limitless supplies of cheap oil, most people wanted to own a car (as has also been pointed out), and railways were seen as dirty and inefficeint.

Perhaps motorway might also have been useful for military mobilisation. I am unsur eof that, as there was defnece whit epaper in the late 1950's that formulated the policy of nuclear deterrence and a massive retaliatory nuclear strike through the new missile submarines that were planend at that stage. Defence strategy at that point was to concentrate on the nuclear forces, with conventional land forces being retained only to look after what remained of the empire. After Suez, there was also a recognition that similar rapid and large scale military actions outside of the European theatre were out of the question politically. I am, therefore, cautious about accepting that large scale military movements necessitated developmetn of the motroways in the late 1960's.

To my mind, this may have been a plan initially formulated in th eimmediate post war period, which, for whatever reason, was never implemented. I can see the sense of such an idea around the time of the Berlin airlift, for example. It's possible that the idea of massive military mobilisation on the motorway network still lingered in some minds in 1961, but official policy for some years had been the nuclear tripwire.

I strongly believe that the drive to make the railways pay their way was unacheivable, that the politicians knew this, and that they expected the rail netowrk to shrink until there was (ultimately) nothing left at all. I think also that that was the feeling of the times, and that those who supported railways were seen as eccentic and nostalgic, rather than rpogressive and forward looking. In the circumstances, one cannot blame Dr Beeching, one can only look back and say in hindsight that the decision makers of the day got it wrong, and that some of the closures that took place should not have done so.

I do not think this is a rewrite of history to support personal beliefs. It is a logical conclusion based on an objective analysis of the post war period prior to the publication of the report.
 

Old Timer

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I do not think this is a rewrite of history to support personal beliefs. It is a logical conclusion based on an objective analysis of the post war period prior to the publication of the report.
Unfortunately whenever this subject comes up, we always end up with the old chesnut that "Beeching/Marples/Conservatives closed all the Railway branch lines".

As I have pointed out this is inaccurate but unfortunately those to the Left of the Political spectrum have used lies, distortions and disingenuity to effect a rewrite of history, such that very few know (if indeed any care) that the real facts are somewhat different to the propaganda.

Pointing this out is never a popular task, as it causes real problems to those who like to wear the rose tinted spectacles - even in the face of the reality.

It continues to sadden me that there are so many inaccurate statements made about the Railways which a little basic research would reveal to be untrue. They add nothing to any debate and serve merely to perpetuate mistruth.

I wish the facts to be made clear, that is all. It is not I who made the Railway a Political football.
 

anthony263

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Being a railhead for Porthcawl has contributed to the success of Pyle in terms of passenger numbers. The branch should not have been closed, but it's easy to say that with the benefit of hindisght.

One of the things that came out of the Beeching report was the closure of smaller stations such a sPyle on main lines, so that services could be speeded up. Yet we have reopened many small stations on the South Wales main line to cope with commuting and business trends which could not have been foreseen in 1962, even with a crystal ball!

Yes that is true

All the swamline stations have been a sucess , However the swanline stations would get more use if they had a hourly off peak service which ATW should have a unit sitting in canton during the day which could possibly be used which could be timed to worked peak hour services on the valley lines.

Baglan statio hwoever doesnt seem to be too popular even during the peaks, most i have ever seen is 5 people compared to at least 20-30 people at Pyle
 

Greenback

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Unfortunately whenever this subject comes up, we always end up with the old chesnut that "Beeching/Marples/Conservatives closed all the Railway branch lines".

As I have pointed out this is inaccurate but unfortunately those to the Left of the Political spectrum have used lies, distortions and disingenuity to effect a rewrite of history, such that very few know (if indeed any care) that the real facts are somewhat different to the propaganda.

Pointing this out is never a popular task, as it causes real problems to those who like to wear the rose tinted spectacles - even in the face of the reality.

It continues to sadden me that there are so many inaccurate statements made about the Railways which a little basic research would reveal to be untrue. They add nothing to any debate and serve merely to perpetuate mistruth.

I wish the facts to be made clear, that is all. It is not I who made the Railway a Political football.

Ah, I don;t see it as the COnservatives closing all the branch lines.History shows that Labour continued to close them, and I have no doubt that if the Labour Party had been in power they would also have wante dot make the railways pay. It may not have been Marples or Beeching under Labour, but the results would have been very similar at the very least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes that is true

All the swamline stations have been a sucess , However the swanline stations would get more use if they had a hourly off peak service which ATW should have a unit sitting in canton during the day which could possibly be used which could be timed to worked peak hour services on the valley lines.

Baglan statio hwoever doesnt seem to be too popular even during the peaks, most i have ever seen is 5 people compared to at least 20-30 people at Pyle

Agreed. The problem with Baglan is it's location. It's quite a way from the Business Park, IIRC from my one visit there for a job interview many years ago. Being stuck in the middle of a dual carriageway and motorway hardly adds to its appeal.

I am sure that Llansamlet and Skewen would be much busier if there was a better service, and I think the same can be said for Briton Ferry too.
 

Greenback

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AIUI, Mr Serpell worked at the MoT during the Beeching years. I consider the report the final death throes of the notion that the railways were a thing of the past, and the roads were the only future.
 

ainsworth74

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AIUI, Mr Serpell worked at the MoT during the Beeching years. I consider the report the final death throes of the notion that the railways were a thing of the past, and the roads were the only future.

Further to that I'm not sure anyone in decision making positions ever actually considered Option A to be a viable choice. Indeed I've often seen it as being a bit of classic 'Yes Minister' work in that a report is produced with two unacceptable extreme options (Option A: Cut everything and Option H: Spend billions on improving) in order to make the 'correct' options look better. Of course the uproar was such that the entire report ended up being shelved.
 
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