AWC Derailment at Shap Summit 03/11/25

[mcmad]

er, what Azuma derailment? Is that another name for the ICE?
You will have to explain the comment further as I can't make any sense of it.

This one I assume https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2020-collision-and-derailment-at-neville-hill

 

[AndrewE]

When the Azuma collided with a Hst at Neville Hill, the Azuma then derailed. It makes absolutely perfect sense.

Only if that area is your focus. I had forgotten about it.

An Azuma is the LNER hitachi train.

so it is, I forget the different names for the same rolling stock.
Are they bar-coupled like Pendolinos? and is the drawbar springing the same? I have no idea. However the RAIB comment

The derailment occurred because the design of the Intercity Express Train is susceptible to derailment in low speed collisions. This susceptibility is related to the use of high-strength couplers with large freedoms of movement in pitch and yaw. These features were part of the train’s design. However, the impact of these features on the train’s resistance to derailment and lateral displacement in low speed collisions, was not considered by the train’s designers.

makes absolutely no reference to 80 mph derailmants, and so is probably completely irrelevant...

 

[35B]

er, what Azuma derailment? Is that another name for the ICE?
You will have to explain the comment further as I can't make any sense of it.

There was a low speed collision in 2019 in Leeds where a class 800 (the LNER class 80x are referred to as “Azuma”) ran into an HST. It caused the Azuma to jackknife across the adjacent running line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2025 ==

However the RAIB comment

makes absolutely no reference to 80 mph derailmants, and so is probably completely irrelevant...

it’s relevant to discussion of the role of the bar coupler in the behaviour of the train in the incident.

 

[AndrewE]

There was a low speed collision in 2019 in Leeds where a class 800 (the LNER class 80x are referred to as “Azuma”) ran into an HST. It caused the Azuma to jackknife across the adjacent running line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2025 ==


it’s relevant to discussion of the role of the bar coupler in the behaviour of the train in the incident.

I think the claim was that the springing and the pitch and yaw restraint was relevant, not the bar coupling itself. and 80mph?.

 

[bahnause]

I looked up the German ICE disaster as I thought part of the cause of the jackknifing was that they stuck with screw-couplings between coaches, but it's not mentioned.

Between the middle cars and between the middle cars and the power cars, the ICE 1
has a center buffer coupling manufactured by Schaku. It is designed as a semi-automatic coupling, in which the fiber optic cables, air lines, and electrical are connected automatically. The mechanical connections have to be made manually using bolts.

 

[43096]

I looked up the German ICE disaster as I thought part of the cause of the jackknifing was that they stuck with screw-couplings between coaches, but it's not mentioned.

The ICE1 sets are not screw coupled. From photos they look to be Dellner-type couplers.

TGV sets, however, are screw coupled between power car and train, at least up until the TGV-A generation, and there are photos of double deck trailer sets being hauled by locos without translator cars.

 

[JModulo]

117 now headed to Longsight this morning after repairs at Polmadie.

 

[DaveyJones]

Realtime Trains | 5H88 0624 Polmadie Car M.D. to Longsight Car. M.D. | 21/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5H88 0624 departure from Polmadie Car M.D. to Longsight Car. M.D. on 21/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[RGM654]

er, what Azuma derailment? Is that another name for the ICE?
You will have to explain the comment further as I can't make any sense of it.

Neville Hill a few years ago. https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2020-collision-and-derailment-at-neville-hill

 

[AndrewE]

Neville Hill a few years ago. https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2020-collision-and-derailment-at-neville-hill

thank you. Previously explained in post #392/394.
About as different a set of conditions as you could imagine.

 

[Class 170101]

Realtime Trains | 5H88 0624 Polmadie Car M.D. to Longsight Car. M.D. | 21/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5H88 0624 departure from Polmadie Car M.D. to Longsight Car. M.D. on 21/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Can all the repairs not be done at Polmadie?

 

[MCR247]

117 now headed to Longsight this morning after repairs at Polmadie.

It’s repaired already?

 

[Steddenm]

It’s repaired already?

There was a picture of it on Facebook earlier with a new front cone and under its own power moving to Manchester.

 

[MCR247]

There was a picture of it on Facebook earlier with a new front cone and under its own power moving to Manchester.

That’s impressive!

 

[AndrewE]

There was a picture of it on Facebook earlier with a new front cone and under its own power moving to Manchester.

could it have been made fit to travel for that one journey ECS?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

could it have been made fit to travel for that one journey ECS?

The RTT schedule (linked above) said it was timed for 56mph (90km/h) max, which suggests it was not in prime nick.

 

[800001]

The RTT schedule (linked above) said it was timed for 56mph (90km/h) max, which suggests it was not in prime nick.

Ignore timing loads on RTT. That does not translate down to what they will
Operate at on the ground on the day.

 

[zwk500]

The RTT schedule (linked above) said it was timed for 56mph (90km/h) max, which suggests it was not in prime nick.

That's almost certainly a data error, likely because it's a VSTP schedule.

 

[Trainguy34]

Judging by RTT, 1M07 was cancelled between Glasgow C and Preston to facilitate the movement down to Longsight.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Judging by RTT, 1M07 was cancelled between Glasgow C and Preston to facilitate the movement down to Longsight.

There were a few cancellations on the Avanti website when I looked first thing that morning. As I was intending to travel around that time. Something to do with the problems the previous day I thought.

 

[800001]

Judging by RTT, 1M07 was cancelled between Glasgow C and Preston to facilitate the movement down to Longsight.

How have you worked that out from RTT?

 

[Trainguy34]

There were a few cancellations on the Avanti website when I looked first thing that morning. As I was intending to travel around that time. Something to do with the problems the previous day I thought.

Could be problems the previous day then, I didn't think about cross-referencing with anything else. Odd that the ECS had booked stops from Motherwell down to Preston though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2025 ==

How have you worked that out from RTT?

More of an educated guess based on the fact that it ran in the path of 1M07, and had stops scheduled at all booked stops to Preston.

 

[zwk500]

More of an educated guess based on the fact that it ran in the path of 1M07, and had stops scheduled at all booked stops to Preston.

Entirely possible that 1M07 had been cancelled after the signalling failures around Stoke displaced stock, and then control took the opportunity of a free path to send the unit south.

 

[Trainguy34]

Entirely possible that 1M07 had been cancelled after the signalling failures around Stoke displaced stock, and then control took the opportunity of a free path to send the unit south.

I completely forgot about the Stoke signal failures, yeah probably that then.

 

[6Gman]

It’s repaired already?

But, but people on here were speculating that it would be written off hours after the mishap! ! !

 

[hwl]

The RTT schedule (linked above) said it was timed for 56mph (90km/h) max, which suggests it was not in prime nick.

56ms^-1 which is 125mph...

The problem is automatic labelling with the wrong speed units.

This comes up every few month on the forum...

 

[Pinus contorta]

The Edinburgh West Midlands Euston train usually 18 behind the (part cancelled) Glasgow (Preston) to Euston just mentioned upthread had to make extra stops and got delayed.

I don't think it was following something travelling at 56 mph if it was only around 20 late at Preston. That's the impression I got standing on Preston station and deciding which train to board to get to St. Helens

 

[DaveyJones]

390117 is back in traffic today

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2025 ==

Realtime Trains | 5A14 0624 Longsight Car. M.D. to Manchester Piccadilly | 29/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5A14 0624 departure from Longsight Car. M.D. to Manchester Piccadilly on 29/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

390117 is back in traffic today

 

[chrisjo]

That's ECS, followed by this one with guinea pigs...

Realtime Trains | 1A14 0715 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston | 29/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 1A14 0715 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston on 29/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[390136]

390117 went from Polmadie to Longsight non tilt btw, Longsight needed to do some further tilt tests and a few component changes.

It’s out today for one day only before being stood down for a week for exams and vinyl repairs.