Avanti West Coast - Renationalisation on March 7th 2027

[Hophead]

As far as I'm concerned, the main thing is the continuation of Club Avanti benefits until at least this time next year - I've got a free pair of Standard Premium journeys to be redeemed!

 

[Hedge Fund]

This currently encompass West Midlands Railway and London Northwestern Railway routes, although the latter will join Avanti West Coast in 2027 in a business unit due to be called One West Coast.

It's probably just my way of thinking, but I absolutely hate the mess of different TOC brands, names, websites, and so on that we have allowed to happen in this country. It is just messy and confusing, especially for people visiting here from other countries.

Ignoring the argument of passenger railways being publicly owned and operated, versus being Private/PLC TOC's, all passenger trains on ALL of Britains railways should run under one single brand and name, and tickets should be available from ONE website that carries that branding. I have no issue with 3rd party Trainline type companies selling the tickets as well, but you should also be able to buy them from ONE official website and app, not 20 different ones like you can at the moment.

Someone may tell me the reasoning behind it, but I have no idea why we allowed this to happen. Sure, offer rail franchise to private companies, but tell them they brand the trains as British Rail. Surely there is no requirement for say Avanti to brand their trans as Avanti?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone may tell me the reasoning behind it, but I have no idea why we allowed this to happen. Sure, offer rail franchise to private companies, but tell them they brand the trains as British Rail. Surely there is no requirement for say Avanti to brand their trans as Avanti?

It was because the idea of private enterprise and competition was being promoted. A single brand with operation subcontracted would be an option, but it wasn't the "brave new world" that was being sold (or mis-sold, as the case may be).

 

[Djgr]

As far as I'm concerned, the main thing is the continuation of Club Avanti benefits until at least this time next year - I've got a free pair of Standard Premium journeys to be redeemed!

I think you might be being optimistic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2026 ==

It was because the idea of private enterprise and competition was being promoted. A single brand with operation subcontracted would be an option, but it wasn't the "brave new world" that was being sold (or mis-sold, as the case may be).

Yep...and they were told

 

[Hedge Fund]

It was because the idea of private enterprise and competition was being promoted. A single brand with operation subcontracted would be an option, but it wasn't the "brave new world" that was being sold (or mis-sold, as the case may be).

I would agree with mis-sold...

But what competition was ever being promoted? I have travelled from Carlisle to London for years, for work, and I have only ever had Virgin, and then Avanti as the only option. There was no completion. (I note the recent introduction of Lumo, but still...)

Not having a go at you of course, but I just can't see the sense in any of the TOC's being allowed to brand as whatever they wanted. Most passengers don't get any choice or competition. They get the one TOC that serves their route or area. The only real exception being some of the London routes where you might be able to choose between Southern or ThamesLink for example.

Rant over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what competition was ever being promoted? I have travelled from Carlisle to London for years, for work, and I have only ever had Virgin, and then Avanti as the only option. There was no completion. (I note the recent introduction of Lumo, but still...)

I agree it was flawed, but more stuff like the First North Western London service was part of it, plus from Scotland to London you basically have the two options. There's also direct competition on a few other lines of route. It was never going to be everywhere.

 

[officewalla]

Sounds like more of a headache trying to put all the terms and conditions the same across the board.
Why wouldn’t they just keep it as is and have the routes, staff and pay stay the same as they are now?

Because if you are doing the same job for the same company than it is a reasonable expectation to get paid the same. The equal pay Law enshrines this right between men and women but not for same job different department type stuff. Exceptions such as experience,shift allowance and location enhancements are allowed. If I were to predict how harmonising T&Cs and pay across the whole of England under the GBR management was to go, I predict local and national industrial action and a race to the bottom for GBR clashing with race to the top by the unions.

 

[The Planner]

I'm interested to know what WCML infrastructure enhancements will flow from this announcement that are not already in the CP7 funding package.

None

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because if you are doing the same job for the same company than it is a reasonable expectation to get paid the same. The equal pay Law enshrines this right between men and women but not for same job different department type stuff. Exceptions such as experience,shift allowance and location enhancements are allowed. If I were to predict how harmonising T&Cs and pay across the whole of England under the GBR management was to go, I predict local and national industrial action and a race to the bottom for GBR clashing with race to the top by the unions.

I've created a speculative thread on pay harmonisation here:

Will GBR pay all drivers/guards the same in the end or will a hierarchy of service types develop again?

Because if you are doing the same job for the same company than it is a reasonable expectation to get paid the same. The equal pay Law enshrines this right between men and women but not for same job different department type stuff. Exceptions such as experience,shift allowance and location...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JamesT]

I would agree with mis-sold...

But what competition was ever being promoted? I have travelled from Carlisle to London for years, for work, and I have only ever had Virgin, and then Avanti as the only option. There was no completion. (I note the recent introduction of Lumo, but still...)

Not having a go at you of course, but I just can't see the sense in any of the TOC's being allowed to brand as whatever they wanted. Most passengers don't get any choice or competition. They get the one TOC that serves their route or area. The only real exception being some of the London routes where you might be able to choose between Southern or ThamesLink for example.

Rant over.

The structure of rail privatisation in the UK was that competition was largely at the franchise stage. Though even so, there are far more routes with multiple operators than just the London ones. Taking your journey from Carlisle to London, Virgin/Avanti may have been the only TOC providing a direct service, but you had alternatives if you're willing to accept changes and a slower journey. TPE to Manchester, XC to Birmingham, LNWR to Euston.

With branding, rail is not the only transport method. It's competing with buses, planes, cars, etc. I think the individual TOC advertising campaigns have been much more effective than generic rail ones.

 

[JamieL]

Not keen on changes to Avanti - the overall experience of travelling with them is fairly good with an app with seat selector, good policing of the premium carriages and fairly nice trains. The experience is only likely to go downhill from here.

 

[Djgr]

I agree it was flawed, but more stuff like the First North Western London service was part of it,

If I recall this was accompanied by a collapse in their "bread and butter" services, presumably because their attention was distracted onto their sexy but vain project.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2026 ==

Not keen on changes to Avanti - the overall experience of travelling with them is fairly good with an app with seat selector, good policing of the premium carriages and fairly nice trains. The experience is only likely to go downhill from here.

although appalling punctuality

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

None

Well, I see there is this in the DfT announcement:

Transport Secretary to nationalise Avanti West Coast services at first opportunity

From 7 March 2027, Avanti West Coast's services will be nationalised to improve infrastructure, cut delays and improve the passenger experience.

www.gov.uk

Changes passengers will see include:

• Fewer delays and cancellations thanks to an extra £10 million boost for power and signalling maintenance to be delivered by the end of 2027. This is in addition to the existing £840 million investment to improve infrastructure problems, which account for a third of delays on the WCML.
• Faster and more reliable services through changes to existing timetables, focusing on routes going in and out of Manchester. Amendments will start to come in from December 2026.
• Upgraded facilities at Euston with a £50 million investment at Euston station over the next 3 years. £11 million will initially go towards creating more seating, better waiting areas and refurbished toilets and within the next year, passengers will also be able to access their train further in advance of departure to streamline boarding. A further £10 million will be invested in other stations on the WCML to improve comfort and cleanliness before the end of 2027.
• More stable internet connection along the route through the deployment of low earth orbit satellite technology to secure faster and more reliable wifi and 5G coverage onboard.

Maybe all this was in the CP7 or Avanti pipeline anyway (like the Crewe canopy replacement), but it reads as though it's new investment.

 

[JamieL]

although appalling punctuality

For long distance operators, this is the nature of the railway regardless of who runs the trains. And it means many journeys are free or half-price! I doubt a change of operator will change anything for punctuality.

 

[The Planner]

Well, I see there is this in the DfT announcement:

Transport Secretary to nationalise Avanti West Coast services at first opportunity

From 7 March 2027, Avanti West Coast's services will be nationalised to improve infrastructure, cut delays and improve the passenger experience.

www.gov.uk

Maybe all this was in the CP7 or Avanti pipeline anyway (like the Crewe canopy replacement), but it reads as though it's new investment.

None of which are enhancements. £10 million for maintenance. Euston facilities and better internet aren't going to sort performance.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But what competition was ever being promoted? I have travelled from Carlisle to London for years, for work, and I have only ever had Virgin, and then Avanti as the only option. There was no completion. (I note the recent introduction of Lumo, but still...)

Not having a go at you of course, but I just can't see the sense in any of the TOC's being allowed to brand as whatever they wanted. Most passengers don't get any choice or competition. They get the one TOC that serves their route or area. The only real exception being some of the London routes where you might be able to choose between Southern or ThamesLink for example.

Virgin/Avanti had direct competition with London Midland/WMT over much of the southern WCML, with Chiltern in the mix as well - offering three different fare structures.
But the main competition was for each franchise term, when the DfT chose from the bids available.
Branding was usually up to the bidder to choose, though DfT had the final word, in, say, resurrecting LNER and GWR brands.
It's all been tightly controlled by the DfT since 2020, with little freedom for individuality for the TOCs, public or private.

 

[Sorcerer]

I'd put money on that, or a variation of it being what happens to be honest for the most part.

We'd just have to hope no incoming government decides to go back to privatisation during this decades long transition.

It is interesting, isn't it that LNER (plus Great Eastern) and GWR - and to an extent Southern - were resurrected by the TOCs but LMS has not...

It's probably a bit complex. The GWML is an obvious spine with a load of branches. The "LMS" is much more complex - yes, they can integrate WMT's LNR branded services fairly well, but Northern and TPE really complicate things.

I know LMS isn't quite as straight forward as GWR or even LNER, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it was complex. It's still very much the passenger services of the London Midland region, and to an extent the Scottish Central Belt region as well even though nowadays it would only really be under InterCity services. I think the only issue with using LMS is that it might've been confused with London Northwestern and passengers who might still know it as London Midland.

 

[Russel]

Well, I see there is this in the DfT announcement:

Transport Secretary to nationalise Avanti West Coast services at first opportunity

From 7 March 2027, Avanti West Coast's services will be nationalised to improve infrastructure, cut delays and improve the passenger experience.

www.gov.uk

Maybe all this was in the CP7 or Avanti pipeline anyway (like the Crewe canopy replacement), but it reads as though it's new investment.

How many more times can they announce that there is to be improvements at Euston before they actually make any material improvements?

I'm sure we've seen this announced in various forms multiple times over the last few years.

• Upgraded facilities at Euston with a £50 million investment at Euston station over the next 3 years. £11 million will initially go towards creating more seating, better waiting areas and refurbished toilets and within the next year, passengers will also be able to access their train further in advance of departure to streamline boarding. A further £10 million will be invested in other stations on the WCML to improve comfort and cleanliness before the end of 2027.

 

[ScottGallagher]

How many more times can they announce that there is to be improvements at Euston before they actually make any material improvements?

I'm sure we've seen this announced in various forms multiple times over the last few years.

And perhaps bar the first class lounge none of which were Avantis domain anyway to spend money on.

 

[moogal]

TBH the improvement at Euston that would have the biggest impact is sorting out the Underground station. The actual main concourse isn't so bad now that they've cleared most of the clutter and (mostly) stopped waiting til the last moment to announce platform allocations.

 

[Russel]

TBH the improvement at Euston that would have the biggest impact is sorting out the Underground station. The actual main concourse isn't so bad now that they've cleared most of the clutter and (mostly) stopped waiting til the last moment to announce platform allocations.

Have they though?

I only use Euston a couple of times a month, usually to get the xx:46 Trent Valley service, or 20:30 Preston service, but I can't say I've noticed the platform being advertised more than 5 minutes before departure most of the time, despite them sitting at the platform for around 20 minutes prior and the info being available in RTT...

 

[moogal]

Have they though?

I only use Euston a couple of times a month, usually to get the xx:46 Trent Valley service, or 20:30 Preston service, but I can't say I've noticed the platform being advertised more than 5 minutes before departure most of the time, despite them sitting at the platform for around 20 minutes prior and the info being available in RTT...

I use it a few times a week and unless things are disrupted, I see most services appear on screen an average at least 15-20 minutes before departure. It's definitely nowhere near as bad as it was back when there was all the fuss over it.

 

[Russel]

I use it a few times a week and unless things are disrupted, I see most services appear on screen an average at least 15-20 minutes before departure. It's definitely nowhere near as bad as it was back when there was all the fuss over it.

Fair enough, good to hear it has improved.

My main gripe with Euston is what happens during disruption, the staff seem to disappear and those that are still visible don't seem to know what day of the week it is.

 

[A S Leib]

with an app with seat selector

As much as I like having the seat selector, I'd happily trade that for a booking site which manages the bare minimum of selling the same (non-split) advance fares which are visible on other sites.

 

[Sorcerer]

I use it a few times a week and unless things are disrupted, I see most services appear on screen an average at least 15-20 minutes before departure. It's definitely nowhere near as bad as it was back when there was all the fuss over it.

To be honest I don't think it would've been as bad if not for the fact Euston's layout and design lead to serious bottlenecks and overcrowding which is only made worse if the gateline staff perform ticket inspections. I imagine if people were able to wait on the platforms it wouldn't be as bad. One thing I noticed in Switzerland was that trains pulled in to their final destination, let passengers disembark and board, and the train was off again within 10-15 minutes.

 

[teaspoon]

None of which are enhancements. £10 million for maintenance. Euston facilities and better internet aren't going to sort performance.

better internet would be very welcome, though - at present the wifi is borderline unusable north of Preston.

 

[Carlisle]

One thing I noticed in Switzerland was that trains pulled in to their final destination, let passengers disembark and board, and the train was off again within 10-15 minutes.

Unless you wish to board a train with drop downs, tables & floors full of the previous journeys litter the above won’t be realistically possible..

 

[Sorcerer]

Unless you wish to board a train with drop downs, tables & floors full of the previous journeys litter the above won’t be realistically possible..

I put that down more to a societal attitude problem. For most of my journeys the trains were still clean despite not having crews tending to them. My original point was more to highlight Euston's design not lending itself well to the habit of announcing close to departure and causing a bottle neck on the station ramps. No amount of nationalisation can fix that even if they are giving people more time to board these days. Sadly a needed rebuild won't be happening in the near future.

 

[6Gman]

I know LMS isn't quite as straight forward as GWR or even LNER, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it was complex. It's still very much the passenger services of the London Midland region, and to an extent the Scottish Central Belt region as well even though nowadays it would only really be under InterCity services. I think the only issue with using LMS is that it might've been confused with London Northwestern and passengers who might still know it as London Midland.

But it isn't is it?

Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Banbury, Leamington, Kidderminster, Barrow, Bolton etc etc say hello.

And I think Scotrail (and the Scottish government in particular) might object to "Scottish" appearing in the name of a train operator that serves only a handful of Scottish stations.

 

[Carlisle]

Euston's design not lending itself well to the habit of announcing close to departure and causing a bottle neck on the station ramps. No amount of nationalisation can fix that

I agree & am not sure what the best solution is. As discussed previously on this forum staff realistically need at least 5-10 mins to clean & service the trains between journeys before boarding takes place.