Availability of train toilets

[ryan125hst]

Thanks for the information so far!
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ANSWERS

1. far too often
2. Voyagers, Pendolinos, 350s (specially). [ Of other classes I travel on regularly, 158s and 175s almost never have a problem ]
3. LM / Virgin
4. Longer routes I guess - certainly toilets should be sorted before the journey starts.

It's not as bigger problem on Virgin trains, particularly the Pendolinos as there is a toilet in most carriages. The biggest problems are on trains such as the 350's where there are four carriages but only two toilets.

How are East Coast for failures? I'm sure it would be rare for them all to be OOU, especially on a 9 coach HST!
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I use late night SWT services out of Waterloo fairly often (1B01 especially) and lock-outs seem to be a worryingly regular occurrence on those, especially considering the fact that a passenger in need can't use the facilities at an intermediate station if they're on the last train of the night (Not that said facilities are ever open anyway!) and I've come across some extremely unpleasant circumstances in my time as a result.

One example that sticks in my mind was a journey on 1B01 just before Xmas (I think it might've been on the 19th Dec) where all four toilets on our two Class 450 units were out of service, but the one next to where I had to stand because I had my bike stowed in the appropriate space had been forced open by a passenger at Waterloo and was getting a lot of use during the journey, despite both the bowl and floor being flooded and leaking out into the saloon. This was unpleasant enough of course (Indeed, it caused one poor passenger to vomit at the sight of it) but the fact that we'd been routed through East Putney, Effingham Jct and Guildford due to engineering works that night made it altogether worse.

Worst of all was the fact that I'd actually noticed that all of the bogs were U/S as I was walking up to board (I normally check the OOU lights as I'm walking up) and knowing we were to be diverted as above I asked the Guard if we could be swapped out to another consist with working loos (A suitable consist was on the adjacent platform) to avoid the inevitable problems I could forsee, but he appeared to disregard it and not enquire with Wessex as to whether or not this might be possible.

Needless to say, SWT received a very clear and strongly worded letter of complaint in relation to that particular run...And hopefully they'll have made the appropriate adjustments to their operating procedures as a result!

That's very bad, particularly on a late night diversion! Did the passengers not ask the guard to stop somewhere or unlock the toilet that was in the most suitable state?

It looks like SWT don't empty the CET tanks often enough. I wonder if the problem is as bad on the 444's to Weymouth? That is a VERY long way to go without a toilet!

 

[MCW]

So far, I haven't yet encountered too much of an issue with U/S toilets as much as bodily waste splattered all over toilets etc, and to consider the fact I have OCD tendancies and am very 'germ aware' it completely puts me off going to the loo.

I have found that the cleanest and most maintained toilets on my travels to date are on East Midlands Trains services.

That is another thing as well, I think there is a link between massive open spaced DDA toilets and the older enclosed ones A la Mk.3's and 15X DMU's. When you are enclosed you have less room to wobble and bounce about and something to grab is nearer to you. I have many a time struggled to keep it all in the pan whilst doing my gentleman's waste function on a class 350 or something, but to me, that's what it really boils down to.

Also Neanderthals... Quite. Some people are obsessed with caused disruption and discomfort to others yet others go OTT with the bog roll sometimes.... idk its a strange one.

 

[Broken Viking]

That's very bad, particularly on a late night diversion! Did the passengers not ask the guard to stop somewhere or unlock the toilet that was in the most suitable state?

As I mentioned in my OP, I did actually ask the Guard if we could have a different consist (Which wouldn't have required anything more difficult than having passengers cross the platform to the train sat opposite) but he appeared to dismiss this. :roll:

We got held up slightly due to a couple of passengers using the platform at Guildford for this purpose (With their mates holding the doors to prevent left-behinds) but the thing to remember is that we were routed non-stop to Guildford (We might've called Surbiton, but I can't recall) from Clapham via East Putney LUL, Effingham Jct and Clandon, so we were running for at least 45 minutes between those two stops!

It looks like SWT don't empty the CET tanks often enough. I wonder if the problem is as bad on the 444's to Weymouth? That is a VERY long way to go without a toilet!

To be brütally honest: If I have to take a SWT or FGW Link service for a journey longer than half an hour, I pack a bottle just in case. hock:

That is another thing as well, I think there is a link between massive open spaced DDA toilets and the older enclosed ones A la Mk.3's and 15X DMU's. When you are enclosed you have less room to wobble and bounce about and something to grab is nearer to you. I have many a time struggled to keep it all in the pan whilst doing my gentleman's waste function on a class 350 or something, but to me, that's what it really boils down to.

I tend to use the DDA bogs in 350s/444s/450s if I can, as the standard ones in those are often too small for me to stand comfortably in with my luggage on my back where I tend to keep it at all times. I find the handrails and flip-down handle provide more than sufficient stability for me to steady myself with one hand (Even when going through Wimbledon at close to the ton) whilst using the other to attend to my business.

 

[Starmill]

As I mentioned in my OP, I did actually ask the Guard if we could have a different consist (Which wouldn't have required anything more difficult than having passengers cross the platform to the train sat opposite) but he appeared to dismiss this. :roll:

We got held up slightly due to a couple of passengers using the platform at Guildford for this purpose (With their mates holding the doors to prevent left-behinds)

The platform!? Aye aye aye! That can't have been pleasant for the guard!

Alternatively, the LU solution: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=454213747984546&set=a.446139678791953.101573.446108865461701&type=1&theater

 

[Flamingo]

As I mentioned in my OP, I did actually ask the Guard if we could have a different consist (Which wouldn't have required anything more difficult than having passengers cross the platform to the train sat opposite) but he appeared to dismiss this. :roll:

It involves quite a lot more than the guard just telling everybody to walk across the platform to do a set swap, and according to my colleagues in traction control, it can cause chaos to a lot of planning and maintenance issues if a train is moved out of course, usually meaning it misses it's booked slot for a lot of things (including tanking / toilet emptying). It's a decision taken by Control, usually for serious faults / delays.

Probably the reason the guard dismissed it.

 

[172212]

Often 323 toilets aren't available, however LM don't often advertise this, although they have begun to do so

 

[yorksrob]

It involves quite a lot more than the guard just telling everybody to walk across the platform to do a set swap, and according to my colleagues in traction control, it can cause chaos to a lot of planning and maintenance issues if a train is moved out of course, usually meaning it misses it's booked slot for a lot of things (including tanking / toilet emptying). It's a decision taken by Control, usually for serious faults / delays.

Probably the reason the guard dismissed it.

Although that said, I have seen Norrthern Rail swap a 2 car Pacer (originally intended for the Calder valley) with a 150 (originally heading for Huddersfield) at Man Vic at short notice. This was mainly because there were too many Calder valley passengers to physically fit on a 2 carriage pacer at the time.

 

[Dave1987]

Set swaps are usually out of the question as each unit is on a particular diagram and will end up at a particular depot, some diagrams are specific maintenance diagrams and as such the unit will end up going to the main maintenance depot at some point for scheduled maintenance, unit control will normally never allow a unit to be taken off those diagrams as the unit might have low miles remaining.

 

[trentside]

Recently took a couple of trips with SWT, Southern and Southeastern. Found all but one on train toilet to be in good condition - one Southern 377 was a little smellier than ideal, but the loo itself appeared clean enough to use. Was quite impressed that even in peak times, the loos were in such good condition - routes may have been a factor here, though.

Southern go as far as publishing a 'Toilet Availability Report' publicly on their website which appears to be updated daily - including which toilets are U/S or those which need water; http://storage.railtechsolutions.co.uk/Southern/Toilet-Report.pdf

 

[wintonian]

It involves quite a lot more than the guard just telling everybody to walk across the platform to do a set swap, and according to my colleagues in traction control, it can cause chaos to a lot of planning and maintenance issues if a train is moved out of course, usually meaning it misses it's booked slot for a lot of things (including tanking / toilet emptying). It's a decision taken by Control, usually for serious faults / delays.

Probably the reason the guard dismissed it.

Not to mention the bloke/ lass who was to drive thing and might not be=cleared for the new traction.

 

[Monty]

It looks like SWT don't empty the CET tanks often enough. I wonder if the problem is as bad on the 444's to Weymouth? That is a VERY long way to go without a toilet!

The problem is that SWT can only empty the CET tanks at depots, and since not all stock goes to a depot overnight (infact quite a bit of stock is stored in sidings and at stations) it's very difficult to ensure all units have their tanks emptied at the end of each day.

 

[theblackwatch]

Southern go as far as publishing a 'Toilet Availability Report' publicly on their website which appears to be updated daily - including which toilets are U/S or those which need water; http://storage.railtechsolutions.co.uk/Southern/Toilet-Report.pdf

A year or two back I was on a Southern service from Brighton to Victoria which had no working toilets, and it had a toilet stop for 5 minutes at Haywards Heath.

Going back to the mid-1990s, there was a time when Tyseley depot had reformed most of its DMUs, removing the centre cars (which had toilets)and replacing them with another power car (no toilet) to enable them to keep to EMU timings on the Cross City line. Unfortunately, these units also worked a summer Saturday diagram from Leicester to Skegness. Train full of families with kids going to/from Skegness with no toilet, apparently the brake vehicle got used for some purposes other than housing the guard and storing luggage! After the first couple of weeks, the units started being reformed on a Friday night, with the centre cars being put back into the formation for the weekend.

 

[Starmill]

Last time I went up the WCML, my LM 350 waited for 11 mins at Nuneaton to do a toilet stop!

 

[colchesterken]

I liked the S R Nelsons it was good fun to see the track running under the train at 60+mph
The good old days nothing to fail. If I remember they had a bin for items not suitable to go onto the track

 

[MCW]

Going back to the mid-1990s, there was a time when Tyseley depot had reformed most of its DMUs, removing the centre cars (which had toilets)and replacing them with another power car (no toilet) to enable them to keep to EMU timings on the Cross City line. Unfortunately, these units also worked a summer Saturday diagram from Leicester to Skegness. Train full of families with kids going to/from Skegness with no toilet, apparently the brake vehicle got used for some purposes other than housing the guard and storing luggage! After the first couple of weeks, the units started being reformed on a Friday night, with the centre cars being put back into the formation for the weekend.

sounds about right, my mate used to do the skeg's a fair bit and he has brought that up on the odd occasion.

Funny this topic came up this week, only today was I travelling on a train from Leeds to Manchester Via Bradford and the loo on the 150 was out of service. Also to note, this was likely to be passenger misuse as the driver said aloud on the platform to his conductor (in a thick Scouse accent!) 'Terry the bloody bog is in a right state!' this then delayed our train departing by ten minutes as they couldn't lock the toilet door shut! d'oh...

 

[martybabes]

The problem is that SWT can only empty the CET tanks at depots, and since not all stock goes to a depot overnight (infact quite a bit of stock is stored in sidings and at stations) it's very difficult to ensure all units have their tanks emptied at the end of each day.

Then it must be up to the TOC to ensure this difficulty is overcome by, if necessary, ensuring there are facilities at sidings and stations to empty the CET tanks. Not to do so is, quite frankly, unacceptable.

What if you were to go to a restaurant or cinema and find the toilets are out of use. If you think that's not OK, then why should it be OK for a train journey to be without basic facilities?

 

[TheEdge]

Because a restaurant or cinema is attached to a tried and tested terrestrial sewerage system which is for all intensive purposes infinite and the toilets there will not see anywhere near as much use in a day than those on a train.

A toilet on a train has a finite water supply, a finite waste capacity and is a mobile version of an inherently non mobile system. Couple that with the world of scheduling and train locations and depot availability you have a problem.

 

[Monty]

Then it must be up to the TOC to ensure this difficulty is overcome by, if necessary, ensuring there are facilities at sidings and stations to empty the CET tanks. Not to do so is, quite frankly, unacceptable.

What if you were to go to a restaurant or cinema and find the toilets are out of use. If you think that's not OK, then why should it be OK for a train journey to be without basic facilities?

There is a bit more to it than simply connecting a pipe to a train when providing provisions to remove human waste from a train. There is simply no space at most stations to be able to do this. On top of that I would imagine the HSE would go spare if TOCs started extractions at platform level with members of the public within arms length. It's a dirty job and there is always a potential for 'spillage'.

 

[SimonS]

Then it must be up to the TOC to ensure this difficulty is overcome by, if necessary, ensuring there are facilities at sidings and stations to empty the CET tanks. Not to do so is, quite frankly, unacceptable.

What if you were to go to a restaurant or cinema and find the toilets are out of use. If you think that's not OK, then why should it be OK for a train journey to be without basic facilities?

Totally agree but the commercial world of the privatised railway is that it is often more convenient for the TOC to make excuses rather than do the job. "What's in the franchise agreement is what gets done" is the motto.

 

[Flamingo]

Then get on to your MP for what has to be included in future franchises.

Just remember that EVERYTHING costs money, which is ultimately funded by fare increases or tax increases.

 

[TheEdge]

Exactly, if people want a perfect service of trains always under 5 years old and with depots and servicing facilities at every possible stabling point then feel free to not complain when fares skyrocket.

 

[Dave1987]

Then it must be up to the TOC to ensure this difficulty is overcome by, if necessary, ensuring there are facilities at sidings and stations to empty the CET tanks. Not to do so is, quite frankly, unacceptable.

What if you were to go to a restaurant or cinema and find the toilets are out of use. If you think that's not OK, then why should it be OK for a train journey to be without basic facilities?

Sorry but you clearly are not aware what is required to CET a train. It requires a lot more time than is available to cleaners to do in the turn around time and it would be very very expensive to install.

 

[TheEdge]

Out of it interest how do they empty CET tanks? I've always assumed they simply attach a special type of pump/vacuum to an outlet valve and then put it to a storage tank in the depot? Or is it more complex?

 

[yorksrob]

Ee

Then get on to your MP for what has to be included in future franchises.

Just remember that EVERYTHING costs money, which is ultimately funded by fare increases or tax increases.

Everything except dumping on the track, so it seems.

 

[6Gman]

Exactly, if people want a perfect service of trains always under 5 years old and with depots and servicing facilities at every possible stabling point then feel free to not complain when fares skyrocket.

I'm not sure that working toilets can be regarded as an extravagant thing to require!

 

[leedslad82]

i've been on a few 185 on the manc pic -leeds route where the toilets have been out of use, the conductor has announced this to passengers and they've had toilet stops at huddersfield and when we've reached leeds they've announced another toilet stop.

on one occasion there was a young lad who was desperate and the conductor opened one of the loos so his mum could take him in(he must have been 4 yr old approx) but the stench was horrendous, i heard her on her phone complaining to control about how could they expect her to do a liverpool lime street to scarborough train on time on a bank holiday monday without a working toilet

I'm not sure that working toilets can be regarded as an extravagant thing to require!

 

[221129]

Out of curiosity what is actually preventing trains discharging onto the Tracks ?

HSTs and the such do so without issues?

(Also at Waterloo there has been some sort of sheeting over the lines that the HSTs are using. I assume due to the toilet issues? )

 

[TheEdge]

I'm not sure that working toilets can be regarded as an extravagant thing to require!

No they're not, but its not always possible to have them all working 100% of the time. If a toilet is blocked, full or out of water and a unit is stabled overnight somewhere without the facilities to sort it out then they can't be fixed.

The only way to get around it is to either have every stabling location set up with all the equipment (costs money) or have all stock moved every night to a depot with facilities and moved back to the right place for the morning (costs money, takes time and not really practical)

So if everything needs to be perfect all the time then the money to do it needs to be found somewhere.
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Out of curiosity what is actually preventing trains discharging onto the Tracks ?

HSTs and the such do so without issues?

(Also at Waterloo there has been some sort of sheeting over the lines that the HSTs are using. I assume due to the toilet issues? )

I believe its emissions control and hygiene basically, MkIIIs, Sprinters and other stock built with discharging toilets have grandfather rights to keep them but when they get refurbished they have to have CET tanks fitted, see the GA 156 refurbishments.

 

[Dave1987]

Out of it interest how do they empty CET tanks? I've always assumed they simply attach a special type of pump/vacuum to an outlet valve and then put it to a storage tank in the depot? Or is it more complex?

They attach a vacuum pump and a fresh water hose but it seems to take a good 15-20 mins to do it.

 

[455driver]

I'm not sure that working toilets can be regarded as an extravagant thing to require!

Can you just imagine-

"We are sorry to announce that due to a toilet problem the 1735 service from <here> to <there> has been cancelled, sorry for any inconvenince caused".

The Daily Mail would have a field day!