Appealing a Fixed Penalty Notice?

[cuccir]

You don't have to pay. If you think that your case is strong enough to defend yourself against possible charges in court, then you try this.

However, asking for a ticket of a distance shorter than the one that you have travelled is usually interpreted as deliberately trying to evade the fare. If it wasn't, ask yourself how the court could ever differentiate between someone who has made a mistake, and someone who has done this deliberately? This allows for prosecution under the Regulation of the Railways Act which would result in a fine and criminal record if successful.

At £80, you can consider this an expensive mistake. You could take the approach of sending in a lower amount - Northern could accept that you made a genuine mistake, and accept the lower payment. But it's a risk and we have no reason to believe that they would accept the lower amount; we know that they would accept the £80.

 

[trainlateagain]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here (which I will probably just add to!)
Does this sound right?
You made the first part of your usual journey from Heaton Chapel to Salford Crescent changing at Piccadilly. You didn't have a ticket and were allowed to travel anyway for whatever reason. While changing at Piccadilly you were getting some money out for a ticket and you were accosted by an RPI. When asked where you had traveled from you misunderstood/got confused and asked for a ticket to where you were traveling to. This led the RPI to believe that you were attempting to evade the higher fare from Heaton Chapel.

hmm no this isn't quite right. the orignal RPI never asked for any details of my journey, he escorted me an another member of staff selling tickets and left. I told this other member of staff i was going to salford but did genuinely forget to say from heaton chapel. so when the first RPI came back and checked my ticket he noticed it was from manchester and got another RPI to write a report.

If they asked for £80, I would guess that they are not going to haggle.

I think they'd prefer it to be settled out of court, it is a long shot but i will include in the letter that if that is not satisfactory for them to contact me again

Pretty poor behaviour from the RPI approaching someone and talking to them while they're in the process of making an ATM transaction.

my thoughts exactly. why else would i be getting cash then and there when if i had no intent on buying a ticket i would have just got to the platform of my next train and got cash at the other end of my journey if needed.

 

[Haywain]

at the moment i'm thinking of sending a letter to Northern enclosing a check for the owed fare and additional £20-30 for admin costs that's in line with DfT regulations for penalty fares, hoping that will be enough to settle it out of court

I don't really see what the DfT regulations have to do with this. You were not offered a penalty fare and Northern do not operate a penalty fare scheme. Therefore Penalty Fare regulations seem somewhat irrelevant.

Regarding your going to the cash machine, did you actually attempt to pay by card first, or just assume the card would not work? This would probably affect how Northern might view this as going to the cash machine might suggest to them that you travelled without actually having the means to pay for the fare.

 

[trainlateagain]

I don't really see what the DfT regulations have to do with this. You were not offered a penalty fare and Northern do not operate a penalty fare scheme. Therefore Penalty Fare regulations seem somewhat irrelevant.

Regarding your going to the cash machine, did you actually attempt to pay by card first, or just assume the card would not work? This would probably affect how Northern might view this as going to the cash machine might suggest to them that you travelled without actually having the means to pay for the fare.

on this occasion i did not attempt to pay by card first, however i have done several times before and it never works either on trains or anywhere using the small hand held card machines they have.

 

[jon0844]

on this occasion i did not attempt to pay by card first, however i have done several times before and it never works either on trains or anywhere using the small hand held card machines they have.

What card/type do you have? Is it a faulty card (damaged chip or magnetic strip) or one that they can't accept?

If the former, I'd seek to get a replacement card or ask your bank for advice. Maybe also ask the train company, as it would save you a lot of problems if you had a means of payment that didn't require going to get cash after travel.

 

[island]

What card/type do you have? Is it a faulty card (damaged chip or magnetic strip) or one that they can't accept?

If the former, I'd seek to get a replacement card or ask your bank for advice. Maybe also ask the train company, as it would save you a lot of problems if you had a means of payment that didn't require going to get cash after travel.

It's probably one of the type that doesn't permit offline transactions due to the bank deeming the holder to be a poor credit risk, due to the account being a basic account, or due to the holder having requested not to be permitted to make offline transactions.

As regards the question of what ticket was asked for/given and given the mentioned difference of 60p, I am going to speculate that the ticket appropriate to the OP's journey was an off-peak day return from Heaton Chapel to Salford Crescent at £2.30. I am going to further speculate that he either asked for "a return from Salford Crescent" implying a destination of Manchester Ctlz, or "a return to Salford Crescent", which the attendant interpreted as the same ticket assuming that the passenger had just come from Salford Crescent. Either of these translates to an off-peak day return at £1.70.

Assuming for the moment that the OP requested "a return to Salford Crescent" and omitted, for whatever reason, to state the point where he commenced his journey, he also states that it is a journey which he regularly makes. I would therefore expect that he would realise that the fare being asked for was less than the usual fare, and therefore take extra care to verify that the ticket he had been sold was the right one for the journey he was planning to make.

I therefore have reason to believe that the OP has committed a criminal offence of travelling on a train without previously paying the fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof, and would be well advised to pay the whole sum requested by Northern Rail in its offer to take the matter no further.

I also endorse DaveNewcastle's post above.

Heaton Chapel has a booking office and ticket machine, and I would suggest that the OP use these facilities in future.

 

[trainlateagain]

What card/type do you have? Is it a faulty card (damaged chip or magnetic strip) or one that they can't accept?

If the former, I'd seek to get a replacement card or ask your bank for advice. Maybe also ask the train company, as it would save you a lot of problems if you had a means of payment that didn't require going to get cash after travel.

it's a natwest visa card, it's not faulty and works at the normal ticket outlets just not the hand held ones. I did raise this with the RPI at the time and he said I should have tried first as it "just depends whether it's online or not" which makes no sense what so ever. if they could accept the tender, why would they ever have it offline? and all attempts in recent months says to me that it does not work.

the issue here is that I did make a genuine mistake and feel the response from northern rail is completely out of proportion. I had no intent to evade the correct fare and did offer to rectify this as soon as I was made aware of the mistake.

 

[furlong]

it is a journey which he regularly makes. I would therefore expect that he would realise that the fare being asked for was less than the usual fare, and therefore take extra care to verify that the ticket he had been sold was the right one for the journey he was planning to make.

Forget the rest of the chatter on this thread: If you allow the matter to proceed further, this is the sort of argument you'd need to defend yourself against to avoid a criminal record.

 

[bb21]

Is it a Visa Debit? Some Visa Debit cards are what's commonly referred to as "online-only" cards, which means that a connection to the bank is required to authorise any payment. If you have such a card, you can buy tickets at a normal ticket office or a shop as the terminals are always connected, however the handheld machines, as they currently stand, are all off-line so cannot take money from such cards.

It is difficult to tell which card you have as there is usually nothing to suggest either way if you have a card which has embossed numbers. That said, if the industry advertises a payment scheme as being acceptable, I do not believe it should be the passenger's job to differentiate between different cards under that payment scheme, but that's for another thread. I can see questions being asked in your case however that if you knew the card would not work, why did you not have any alternative method of payment with you? That said, I don't think that is as serious a matter as asking for a short ticket (due to misunderstanding possibly) as you were withdrawing cash in order to pay your fare anyway.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Is it a Visa Debit? Some Visa Debit cards are what's commonly referred to as "online-only" cards, which means that a connection to the bank is required to authorise any payment.

Surely, if this were the case the card holder would have been notified in the terms & conditions of use by the card provider at the time of issue.

 

[maniacmartin]

Surely, if this were the case the card holder would have been notified in the terms & conditions of use by the card provider at the time of issue.

You'd think so, but banks don't. There have been numerous other threads on such cards

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . the issue here is that I did make a genuine mistake and feel the response from northern rail is completely out of proportion. I had no intent to evade the correct fare and did offer to rectify this as soon as I was made aware of the mistake.

As I think I and others have proposed, the issue here is not your belief or assertion, it is how the railway Company's Investigator is likely to assess the evidence - an assessment which they will make based on their knowledge and experience of general patterns as well as specific details. That assessment will be neutral to the 'proportion' of monies, though it may be a consideration if the assessment then goes towards a prosecution (Northern Rail have previously prosecuted for £0.10p). For a criminal prosecution, the assessment is one of 'beyond all reasonable doubt' and for a civil prosecution is 'on the balance of probablilities'.

The extent of the 'mistake' on the day of travel is something to which only you have unique access. Conversely, the railway Company's have access to accumulated data from thousands of other passeners. However, what was in your mind on the day will not be of interest to the test of the evidence against the wording of the Act. Based on what you have told us on here, and as I have already illustrated, I am confident that an Investigator will assume that it was an attempt to defraud the Company and would pass the matter forward for prosecution if a settlement had not been reached.

 

[Llanigraham]

You'd think so, but banks don't. There have been numerous other threads on such cards

They do!
However it is hidden in the small print of the T & C's you receive and which no-one ever reads!

 

[Anvil1984]

Im going to take a guess and reckon the OP has a NatWest blue debit card. The blue ones are Online only while the purple ones usually allow offline payments.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They do!
However it is hidden in the small print of the T & C's you receive and which no-one ever reads!

In fairness to NatWest they do make it quite obvious and include trains in the examples where it cant be used

http://www.natwest.com/downloads/global_options/docs/NatWest-Basic-Account-Visa-Debit-Card-Guide.pdf

 

[sheff1]

I remain at a loss to understand how asking for a ticket to one's destination can be confidently asumed as being an attempt to defraud. However, as a number of people clearly think that assumption is such an obvious one there is no need for any further explanation, I can only assume () I am being dim.

 

[bb21]

I remain at a loss to understand how asking for a ticket to one's destination can be confidently asumed as being an attempt to defraud.

I don't think it is the act of asking for a ticket to his destination that is causing problems, but rather not stating clearly the origin.

I am not sure that he intended to defraud anyone, but his actions can quite easily be interpreted in that way.

 

[sheff1]

But the assumption* is that the OP 'often says Salford Crescent'. If that is where they are going it seems to me to be the obvious thing to say.

* initially stated in post #6 and endorsed by others subsequently

 

[bb21]

But the assumption* is that the OP 'often says Salford Crescent'. If that is where they are going it seems to me to be the obvious thing to say.

* initially stated in post #6 and endorsed by others subsequently

It may be, but the problem is that the OP was not at his origin station. It is fine to just ask for a ticket to Salford Crescent if the OP was buying it at Heaton Chapel. At Piccadilly, the same request would quite naturally result in an assumption that he wanted a ticket from there and not further back up the line.

I explained in Post 21 how this simple request may be misunderstood, and interpreted by the train company as an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare.

 

[trainlateagain]

unfortunately i think it may be extremely difficult for me to win this case. so i think i will have to bite the bullet, pay it and launch a separate complaint as advised earlier

 

[island]

unfortunately i think it may be extremely difficult for me to win this case. so i think i will have to bite the bullet, pay it and launch a separate complaint as advised earlier

This is probably the way to go.

 

[fowler9]

unfortunately i think it may be extremely difficult for me to win this case. so i think i will have to bite the bullet, pay it and launch a separate complaint as advised earlier

I personally think that is the best option. I don't get the impression you were bunking on the train and also went on to try and save 60p when you obviously had to get back to Heaton Chapel later in the day and wouldn't have had a valid ticket. You were very unlucky but it happens to us all sometimes, technically they have you bang to rights, all I can suggest is in future leave the house even earlier and don't give them the chance to catch you out.

As regards what someone said earlier about certain cards being issued to people who are a credit risk etc. I think that was a bit unfair. I have a Nat West Visa Debit card which doesn't work on the portable machines. I am not a credit risk, I didn't ask for a card that doesn't work offline and I wasn't told that it wouldn't either. When I opened my account I asked for one with no overdraught facility and no monthly fees, basically because I don't want to get in to debt and I don't want to pay the bank monthly for a load of stuff I don't need. Sadly it has now become apparent that this means I get a card that works on every continent but apart from on Northerns portable card readers.

 

[bb21]

As regards what someone said earlier about certain cards being issued to people who are a credit risk etc. I think that was a bit unfair. I have a Nat West Visa Debit card which doesn't work on the portable machines. I am not a credit risk, I didn't ask for a card that doesn't work offline and I wasn't told that it wouldn't either. When I opened my account I asked for one with no overdraught facility and no monthly fees, basically because I don't want to get in to debt and I don't want to pay the bank monthly for a load of stuff I don't need.

It isn't always about credit risks.

In your case it is likely that because you asked for no overdraft facilities, the bank decided that they could not issue you with an off-line card as your bank balance is not checked when off-line transactions are processed, potentially leading to you going overdrawn.

 

[fowler9]

It isn't always about credit risks.

In your case it is likely that because you asked for no overdraft facilities, the bank decided that they could not issue you with an off-line card as your bank balance is not checked when off-line transactions are processed, potentially leading to you going overdrawn.

That does make perfect sense for the bank. It does seem insane in a world where many of us walk around with what is effectively a pocket sized PC that can instantly communicate with people on the other side of the planet. Apologies for drifting off thread, this is probably more suited to the one about people paying (Or not) by card.

 

[tony6499]

unfortunately i think it may be extremely difficult for me to win this case. so i think i will have to bite the bullet, pay it and launch a separate complaint as advised earlier

It's the sensible solution as then the matter is closed

 

[island]

That does make perfect sense for the bank. It does seem insane in a world where many of us walk around with what is effectively a pocket sized PC that can instantly communicate with people on the other side of the planet. Apologies for drifting off thread, this is probably more suited to the one about people paying (Or not) by card.

It's more that Avantix Mobile is 11-year old technology but is not by any means end-of-life, and would incur a tremendous cost to replace for very limited benefit.

 

[fowler9]

It's more that Avantix Mobile is 11-year old technology but is not by any means end-of-life, and would incur a tremendous cost to replace for very limited benefit.

Limited benefits being people who don't pay to have a bank account being able to pay by card. Putting signs up in stations may be an idea.

 

[island]

Um... there are plenty of bank accounts on the market which do not charge a fee and issue offline-capable debit cards, and the small percentage of people with online-only cards can still buy at stations or on the internet.

 

[fowler9]

Um... there are plenty of bank accounts on the market which do not charge a fee and issue offline-capable debit cards, and the small percentage of people with online-only cards can still buy at stations or on the internet.

Well Barclays and Nat West don't seem to do them unless there is another reason for my debit cards not working when there is money in my account. What is the percentage of people that have online only cards? Do you have any proof that it is small? Plus until recently my card wouldn't work in the station either. I think we've been here before anyway,my card worked fine in other parts of the world and only seems to have problems on Northern (Whom I hasten to add I generally like a lot).

 

[bb21]

Does your card work on Avantix machines of another train company?

 

[fowler9]

Does your card work on Avantix machines of another train company?

I couldn't really say but it has worked in similar machines in other walks of life than the railways. My main issue was with the comments about some cards being for people with bad credit histories and that plenty of banks offer online cards with none fee paying accounts when if you go to the major high street banks they obviously don't. Anyway, this is way off topic so apologies.