Appealing a Fixed Penalty Notice?

[trainlateagain]

So today i got a fpn from northern rail, here is what happened.

I was commuting to university from heaton chapel to salford crescent (changing at manchester piccadily). When i arrived at heaton chapel station I queued to buy a ticket, by the time I got to the front of the queue the train was already at the platform and the member of staff gave me permission to board the train without a ticket with the understanding I get one from piccadily (i do this commute 5 days a week and this guy has sold me tickets many times before so knows where i'm going).

upon arrival at manchester, i proceeded to go to the only cash machine that allows £5 withdrawals, the natwest one near platform 13/14. I did this because for some reason the little hand held machines they use at piccadily do not accept my card anymore for some unknown reason. Whilst my card was in the cash machine a northern rail member of staff approached me in a rather rude manner demanding to see my ticket, as he'd observed me getting off a train.

I attempted to explain that I was in the process of buying one and had to explain several times that i would not go with him to buy one as my card was still in the machine and was getting cash, after which i would more than happily pay. I found his demeanour rather frustrating and stressful as he continued to criticise me on the way to purchase a ticket. there was just no reason for him to speak to me in the manner in which he did. I was so distracted by this that i made a genuine mistake of asking for "a return to salford crescent", forgetting to state i had boarded at heaton chapel.

after returning to the waiting lounge, the same member of staff asked again to see my ticket and upon producing it noticed my mistake. even though I offered to rectify this genuine mistake a report was taken for fare evasion.

I had absolutely no intention of not paying the full amount and was a genuine mistake caused by my distress due to what i felt was harassment. Now because I accidently paid £0.60 less than what i should, i now have to pay £80.60 which is completely out of proportion.

Is there a way to appeal fpn's? there are no details on the letter, it just says failure to respond will result in legal action

thanks

 

[bb21]

Is Heaton Chapel barriered? My instinct is that it isn't. If that is the case, my first instinct is the question how you can prove that you were given permission to board without a ticket. (I don't know if it is normal practice for staff to suggest that when the train is in the platform so don't know how likely your claim will be believed.) Where was the "barrier" line at Piccadilly? I thought coming from Platform 14 it would have been before the cashpoint. How did you get past it without a ticket if so?

Asking for a short ticket is a Regulation of Railways Act, unfortunate as the situation may have been.

If you travel five days a week, would one of the season ticket products not be better value? Do you have a Railcard?

Northern Rail's Fixed Penalty Notice is not legally binding, more like an offer of a settlement not to take matters further. You are of course free to decline to pay it, but obviously Northern may take the matter further.

 

[trainlateagain]

Is Heaton Chapel barriered? My instinct is that it isn't. If that is the case, my first instinct is the question how you can prove that you were given permission to board without a ticket. (I don't know if it is normal practice for staff to suggest that when the train is in the platform so don't know how likely your claim will be believed.) Where was the "barrier" line at Piccadilly? I thought coming from Platform 14 it would have been before the cashpoint. How did you get past it without a ticket if so?

Asking for a short ticket is a Regulation of Railways Act, unfortunate as the situation may have been.

If you travel five days a week, would one of the season ticket products not be better value? Do you have a Railcard?

Northern Rail's Fixed Penalty Notice is not legally binding, more like an offer of a settlement not to take matters further. You are of course free to decline to pay it, but obviously Northern may take the matter further.

Heaton chapel is does not have barriers but does have a member of staff blocking each access to the manchester platform while the ticket office is open, so it is usually not possible to gain access without a ticket.

the train came in at platform 11 so there were no barriers in between me and the cash point.

a season ticket would not be cheaper as i travel off peak amounting to £11.50, a season ticket is £16.40 or something like that. and no i do not have a railcard

 

[bb21]

It's a difficult one. In theory if what you said was true, you had permission from staff at Heaton Chapel to board without a ticket and your first opportunity to pay (assuming that the guard did not come through between Heaton Chapel and Piccadilly) is at Piccadilly. However again the question is how you can prove that you were given permission to do so. (Yes, I know there are people at each exit but it is not difficult to get past them without a ticket.)

What complicates the matter, and which I suspect is now the more serious issue, is that you asked for a short ticket. Now that is a Section 5.3(a) offence, which on conviction (should it go that far) carries a criminal record. This may be what Northern will concentrate their effort on.

All the other issues regarding the RPI being rude to you and stressing you out do not officially speaking provide a valid excuse. If you feel strongly about it, make a separate complaint about the RPI, if you noted down his name.

I don't think you can appeal the Fixed Penalty Notice, however as I said before you are free to ignore it (but always pay them the fare owed - 60p in this case). They may take the matter further.

 

[furlong]

he'd observed me getting off a train.
...
"a return to salford crescent", forgetting to state i had boarded at heaton chapel.

If he observed you getting off a train, how could he (or any other member of staff he was working alongside) have then sold you a ticket without first ascertaining where you began your journey?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

We all make mistakes, and perhaps more to the point, we all know that we all make mistakes.

When mistakes happen, they happen randomly.

Railway Companies have noticed (over a period of over a hundred years!) that passengers make the mistake of claiming to board a train at a station closer to their destination than the name of the station where they did board the train and they do so with relentless regularity. Dozens of passengers make that mistake every day.
It's not a random mistake.

In fact, they have devised an elaborate scheme involving several staff, legal advice, and a lot of bits of paper to monitor this mistake, and they find that dozens of people, every time they check, are making the mistake of claiming to board a train at a station closer to their destination

Quite why people make the mistake of saying the name of a station that they didn't get on at, I don't know. It seems an odd mistake to make - I wonder how many people getting off at Manchester Piccadilly make the mistake of sayng that they got on at Inverness.
I went to London today, and although I made several silly mistakes, I managed not to tell anyone that I got on the train at Finsbury Park. I got on at Newcastle, it was a very stressful day indeed, but I didn't forget it was Newcastle. Unless, of course, it isn't a mistake and people hope to defraud the Railway Company out of a little bit of money.
Now the Prosecutions Officer at Northern Rail knows all this, and hears about that same mistake which those dozens of passengers tell every day - what you are asking on here is how to reply to the Officer.

If you expect to say any of these, then you are doomed:
"mistake caused by my distress due to what i felt was harassment"
"the member of staff gave me permission to board the train without a ticket "
"i made a genuine mistake of asking for "a return to salford crescent", forgetting to state i had boarded at heaton chapel."

You know what? I'm going to make an assumption here, having read through your post a few times. This isn't the first time that you have said "Salford Crescent" when you have boarded further out. Is it?

 

[sheff1]

You know what? I'm going to make an assumption here, having read through your post a few times. This isn't the first time that you have said "Salford Crescent" when you have boarded further out. Is it?

I know it is late at night, but I don't understand this at all. According to the OP, Salford Crescent was the destination and they were at Piccadilly having come from a station south of Piccadilly.

 

[Chew Chew]

We all make mistakes, and perhaps more to the point, we all know that we all make mistakes.

When mistakes happen, they happen randomly.

Railway Companies have noticed (over a period of over a hundred years!) that passengers make the mistake of claiming to board a train at a station closer to their destination than the name of the station where they did board the train and they do so with relentless regularity. Dozens of passengers make that mistake every day.
It's not a random mistake.

In fact, they have devised an elaborate scheme involving several staff, legal advice, and a lot of bits of paper to monitor this mistake, and they find that dozens of people, every time they check, are making the mistake of claiming to board a train at a station closer to their destination

Quite why people make the mistake of saying the name of a station that they didn't get on at, I don't know. It seems an odd mistake to make - I wonder how many people getting off at Manchester Piccadilly make the mistake of sayng that they got on at Inverness.
I went to London today, and although I made several silly mistakes, I managed not to tell anyone that I got on the train at Finsbury Park. I got on at Newcastle, it was a very stressful day indeed, but I didn't forget it was Newcastle. Unless, of course, it isn't a mistake and people hope to defraud the Railway Company out of a little bit of money.
Now the Prosecutions Officer at Northern Rail knows all this, and hears about that same mistake which those dozens of passengers tell every day - what you are asking on here is how to reply to the Officer.

If you expect to say any of these, then you are doomed:
"mistake caused by my distress due to what i felt was harassment"
"the member of staff gave me permission to board the train without a ticket "
"i made a genuine mistake of asking for "a return to salford crescent", forgetting to state i had boarded at heaton chapel."

You know what? I'm going to make an assumption here, having read through your post a few times. This isn't the first time that you have said "Salford Crescent" when you have boarded further out. Is it?

The thumbs up symbol is just as good as a like button on here.

If someone was scrutinising the journey I was making I would be making sure I got it correct, not giving out incorrect details that resulted me in paying a smaller fare.

 

[Llanigraham]

I know it is late at night, but I don't understand this at all. According to the OP, Salford Crescent was the destination and they were at Piccadilly having come from a station south of Piccadilly.

First line, second paragraph:
from heaton chapel to salford crescent (changing at manchester piccadily).

 

[sheff1]

If someone was scrutinising the journey I was making I would be making sure I got it correct, not giving out incorrect details that resulted me in paying a smaller fare.

If I was selling tickets at a barrier line and someone approached me from within the barrier I would ask them where they had travelled from.

 

[sheff1]

First line, second paragraph:
from heaton chapel to salford crescent (changing at manchester piccadily).

Exactly.

 

[Chew Chew]

If I was selling tickets at a barrier line and someone approached me from within the barrier I would ask them where they had travelled from.

They didn't travel from Salford Crescent though.

 

[trainlateagain]

You know what? I'm going to make an assumption here, having read through your post a few times. This isn't the first time that you have said "Salford Crescent" when you have boarded further out. Is it?

you know what? you assumed wrong. I always pay at Heaton Chapel, and this was an isolated incident.

Furthermore, my mistake was not incorrectly naming a station, it was a lack of mentioning the station at all, which is quite a different mistake to the one you were talking about.. As i usually pay at Heaton Chapel i do ask for "A return to Salford Crescent" as that is all the information required. In the incident in question, I wasn't not thinking clearly and merely gave my usual response.

 

[sheff1]

How did the person asking the question know the person answering them wasn't telling the truth? Telepathy?

???

If someone inside the barrier asks for a ticket to Salford Crescent it seems fairly obvious that they have travelled into Piccadilly from somewhere else. No telepathy required, unless of course you believe the traveller has used teleporting and is starting their journey at Piccadilly.

They didn't travel from Salford Crescent though.

Yes, we know. Your point is ?

 

[trainlateagain]

They didn't travel from Salford Crescent though.

Correct, I was travelling to salford crescent from another destination. Thinking about it, it should have been obvious that I could not have been where I was had I begun my journey from Manchester.

This was not a calculated ploy to save £0.60. I stand by my statement that it was a genuine mistake.

 

[Chew Chew]

Yes, we know. Your point is ?

They asked for a return to/from Salford Crescent. If you ask for that ticket at another station it suggests that was your starting point. It wasn't.

Instead s/he is trying to blame the big bad railway worker for their inability to buy the right ticket.

I'd suggest the OP hasn't told us everything that really happened and has instead tried to paint a picture to make people feel sympathetic to them.

 

[trainlateagain]

They asked for a return to/from Salford Crescent. If you ask for that ticket at another station it suggests that was your starting point. It wasn't.

Instead s/he is trying to blame the big bad railway worker for their inability to buy the right ticket.

I'd suggest the OP hasn't told us everything that really happened and has instead tried to paint a picture to make people feel sympathetic to them.

the only thing i failed to mention that may have caused a little confusion is that the guard that sold me the ticket on the inside of the barrier was not the same guard that challenged to see the ticket in the first instance. Though if you read the account i thought that would have been obvious. Maybe not. However why would me making a case to make you be sympathetic to me be of any benefit what so ever?

 

[sheff1]

They asked for a return to/from Salford Crescent. If you ask for that ticket at another station it suggests that was your starting point.

Not when you are inside the barrier at an interchange station it doesn't. Especially when that interchange ststion is served by trains from a large number of unstaffed stations (I realise Heaton Chapel is staffed but the ticket seller has no way of knowing where someone has travelled from without asking).

You mentioned Porthlethen. If you travel from there going to Inverurie and approach the barrier at Aberdeen and ask for a ticket to Inverurie, negelecting to state where you commenced the journey, is it really the case that they would automatically sell a ticket just from Aberdeen when, for all they knew you had started in, say, Perth ?

 

[bb21]

If I was selling tickets at a barrier line and someone approached me from within the barrier I would ask them where they had travelled from.

The OP did not approach the RPI from inside the barrier. He approached the RPI from outside the barrier as his train terminated in Platform 11 and he approached G4S staff at the top of Platform 13/14 after using the cashpoint at the top of the travelator as far as I can tell. (Please correct me if I were wrong.)

 

[trainlateagain]

The OP did not approach the RPI from inside the barrier. He approached the RPI from outside the barrier as his train terminated in Platform 11 and he approached G4S staff at the top of Platform 13/14 after using the cashpoint at the top of the travelator as far as I can tell. (Please correct me if I were wrong.)

yes you are wrong. sorry i was unclear. after being challenged at the cash point the RPI escorted me to the ticket guys at the bottom of platform 11 where he then proceeded to leave. I was inside the barrier at all times but either way the staff at the staff at the top of platform 13/14 are still inside the barrier. It would still have been impossible for me to be there without starting my journey at another destination

 

[bb21]

Ah I see. Apologies. I was just wondering where the RPIs were positioned as I was getting a little confused.

Ignoring all the chitchat about what the RPIs should have asked when you requested "a return to Salford Crescent", I think the difficulty is that at the end of the day it is your responsibility to ask for the correct ticket. You may be able to argue in your response that there was misunderstanding on the day, however I am doubtful of your chances when you were unclear about where you wanted your ticket to start from. It is not unreasonable for the RPI who issued the ticket to assume that you wanted a ticket from Piccadilly as there could be all sorts of reasons why you were inside the barrier and "escorted" to him even if only starting there.

Could the RPI have been a little more inquisitive? Perhaps, but that is hardly the deal-breaker imo, unfortunately.

 

[trainlateagain]

and maybe something else i was unclear about, there were 4 members of staff involved in this. 1st the one that let me board the train without a ticket. 2nd the RPI that challenged to see my ticket. 3rd the one that sold me a ticket, 4th the RPI the wrote the report who accompanied the 2nd when he came to check my ticket the second time.

 

[trainlateagain]

yes that is true, it would have been possible for me to have had a valid ticket to manchester in the eyes of the ticket seller and i was just purchasing another ticket to elsewhere. I do accept that this was my mistake however section 5.3(a) states "if any person travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof"

so i guess my only case for appeal is that i hadn't traveled anywhere without a ticket without consent of northern rail and i had no intent to avoid payment later, though that may be difficult to prove.

thank you bb for your constructive insight.

 

[furlong]

For background to Northern's "Failure To Pay" scheme go to https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ and search for "Northern Rail £80 fixed penalty" and digest the documents.

I think the gist of this is that their letters should be seen as offers to settle matters out of court for an "average" amount of their costs.

 

[Fare-Cop]

and maybe something else i was unclear about, there were 4 members of staff involved in this. 1st the one that let me board the train without a ticket. 2nd the RPI that challenged to see my ticket. 3rd the one that sold me a ticket, 4th the RPI the wrote the report who accompanied the 2nd when he came to check my ticket the second time.

yes that is true, it would have been possible for me to have had a valid ticket to manchester in the eyes of the ticket seller and i was just purchasing another ticket to elsewhere. I do accept that this was my mistake however section 5.3(a) states "if any person travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof"

You are indeed at liberty to ignore the Fixed Penalty Notice, but in reality it ought to be seen as a letter telling you that Northern believe they have sufficient evidence to prosecute an offence and I guess it's probably because you haven't come to their attention before, they are prepared to deal with it by administrative penalty.

Like DaveNewcastle, post #6, I must say I would not be convinced by the story as known so far. If Northern go for a Section 5 RoRA prosecution in this case they will have three RPI statements confirming what they say happened. The 2nd, 3rd & 4th individuals in your post #22. Your evidence to attempt to refute this will be if you can get a statement from the member of staff at the barrier line to confirm that you were given permission to enter the station without a valid ticket at Heaton Chapel.

If there is no evidence to support that claim, Northern might even consider the Byelaw 18.1 offence.

If you were given permission to enter the station on condition that you paid your fare at the first opportunity, from your story so far Northern can still show that when challenged, you did not hold a valid ticket and could have declared the journey and paid on train. They can show that when you were challenged you offered and paid a fare from a different station to that from which you had actually travelled and in doing so that you paid a lesser fare than that due for the journey you had made.

If you get a statement from the chap at the barrier who, according to your first post, is known to you and you to him in that he lets you do this on a regular basis, then Northern may take a view, but as it is now, I doubt anything is going to change.

It is entirely your choice, you can take the opportunity given to dispose of the matter and learn from the experience, or you can ignore that opportunity and allow Northern to issue summonses and then, after they have heard the evidence, see if the Magistrates share your interpretation.

Intent will be determined by your words and actions at the time.

If you go down the latter route I strongly advise you to seek qualified legal advice.

 

[trainlateagain]

at the moment i'm thinking of sending a letter to Northern enclosing a check for the owed fare and additional £20-30 for admin costs that's in line with DfT regulations for penalty fares, hoping that will be enough to settle it out of court

 

[talltim]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here (which I will probably just add to!)
Does this sound right?
You made the first part of your usual journey from Heaton Chapel to Salford Crescent changing at Piccadilly. You didn't have a ticket and were allowed to travel anyway for whatever reason. While changing at Piccadilly you were getting some money out for a ticket and you were accosted by an RPI. When asked where you had traveled from you misunderstood/got confused and asked for a ticket to where you were traveling to. This led the RPI to believe that you were attempting to evade the higher fare from Heaton Chapel.

 

[Flamingo]

at the moment i'm thinking of sending a letter to Northern enclosing a check for the owed fare and additional £20-30 for admin costs that's in line with DfT regulations for penalty fares, hoping that will be enough to settle it out of court

If they asked for £80, I would guess that they are not going to haggle.

 

[SETCommuter]

Pretty poor behaviour from the RPI approaching someone and talking to them while they're in the process of making an ATM transaction.

 

[tony6499]

If you pay the £80.60 asked for then the matter is closed unless you make another mistake again, if you don't pay it you can guarantee it is going to cost you a lot more money down the line and maybe you'll end up in court.

Check the other threads for people who didn't pay a penalty fare when asked after they had made a mistake and what happened after to them.