Antisocial behaviour on trains

[billio]

For drunkeness please visit York on a Saturday night or alternatively a race day.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Or post 29 on this thread.

 

[swj99]

And your solution to the problem is ?
We are in a me, me, me society now

First, a clear definition of what's acceptable and what isn't is needed. Get rid of the grey areas. People who are peacefully going about their business can do just that. People who are swearing or shouting abuse, vomiting, urinating in doorways, smashing bottles on the floor etc, damaging property and attacking people need to be arrested and charged.
The sentencing would of course need to be changed in order to provide a better deterrent than exists at present, and in serious cases, could and I think should involve a period of imprisonment in order to keep those offenders away from society in order to make it safer.
Of course it's far too sensible for it to ever happen. In the meantime, society is drifting closer and closer towards lawlessness. It's already not safe for many people to go out on weekend evenings in some parts of the UK as it is. And unless something radical is done to reverse that trend, I don't see how it's going to improve.

 

[Springs Branch]

No surprises to see that trains out of larger towns & cities on Friday/Saturday night appear in this thread.

I was a bit surprised to see places like Weymouth, Bath and Bridgwater mentioned, but I know weekend binge drinking can be a problem in market towns as much as gritty industrial localities (a friend at university in the 1970s always maintained Biggleswade was a rough, brawling town on Saturday night!)

What about the weekend drunkeness on the TransPennine Rail Ale Trail?

I know it's winter and the problem is probably in hibernation, but did the police, Northern Rail & pennine locals manage to put a lid on the excesses of big groups & stag parties last summer?

On the same theme, the remote, request-stop at Entwistle and trains on the Bolton/Blackburn line had significant trouble on Sundays a few years ago, caused by groups of drunks who had spent the day in the real ale pub next to the station. Apart from a row of ex-railway cottages & a farm or two, the Strawbury Duck is the only building near Entwistle station (and road access & parking is not the best). I think the problem here has been brought under control, or ran its course.

 

[Robertj21a]

And your solution to the problem is ?
We are in a me, me, me society now

1. Start by increasing tax on alcohol by another 50%

2. Sentence drunks/abusers etc to community service of, say, 200 hours, for a first offence - they can clean up graffiti, clear drains, weed gardens etc (I really don't care what the menial job is, just force them to suffer!).

3. Increase custodial sentences for any subsequent offences.

4. Ignore those with vested interests in the drinks/hospitality industry.

5. Listen more to the doctors, nurses and police officers.

6. If 1-3 above aren't working to the satisfaction of the sober majority in this country, continue to tighten the belt until compliance becomes the better option.

 

[pne]

Its all very well declaring trains "dry" but most of the trouble makers are already drunk when they get on the train - the onboard police should prevent them from getting on.

A couple of TOCs here in northern Germany declared their trains "dry" as well, and there was a bit of soul-searching around your suggestion (i.e. prohibit drunks from getting on).

In the end, the decision was made to let them on because people figured that if someone thought they wouldn't be let onto the train once drunk they would instead take the car home, which would be even more dangerous.

 

[berneyarms]

1. Start by increasing tax on alcohol by another 50%

And unfairly penalise the vast majority of people who do manage to drink responsibly?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The last service from Weymouth towards Bristol is double manned (two Guards), and on a saturday has a regular BTP escort. The last Bristol - Frome also has two Guards on board, as do some late Paddington to Bristol trains. Evening services on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route omit Cosham, in the Portsmouth suburbs, and have done for years. Bridgwater, between Bristol and Taunton, has a well versed reputation for problematic clientele.

The last Weymouth - Bristol train on Saturdays is also a dry train - Passengers are not even allowed to carry alcohol with them.

The last Bristol - Frome train on the weekend is definitely an experience - Two guards unfortunately do not act as a deterrent and they generally don't walk through the train. This train is usually full of groups of people who have just had a night out in Bristol and Bath and are a little rowdy!

I know that alcohol consumption some lines north of Pontypridd are prohibited too. Was it just to Merthyr Tydfil, or all three lines?

Where is the problem on the 20:21 ex-Weymouth?

Is it leaving Weymouth or going into Bristol?

 

[Bletchleyite]

6. If 1-3 above aren't working to the satisfaction of the sober majority in this country, continue to tighten the belt until compliance becomes the better option.

When you take those who can't legally drink out (children), is the majority of the population "sober", i.e. do the majority of people abstain?

If not the taxation one will hit the sensible majority who drink but don't cause trouble?

Neil

 

[thenorthern]

What is the definition of Anti-Social Behaviour though? For Example:

I got on a train at Manchester Piccadilly the other day and a group of about 5 people got on and sat where I was in Coach A (Quiet Zone) and the train was rather busy so they sat where they could get a seat. I doubt any of them had tickets.

One of the girls kept using her mobile phone and one of the lads who was drunk was having a conversation with a lad who was sitting 4 rows behind him about some garbage to do with his girlfriends.

I reminded the girl that she was in the quiet zone so she spoke quieter on her mobile and I then reminded her again that its not a case of be quiet its no mobile calls full stop. I then spoke to the drunk lad who was shouting down the coach and then one of the members of the group just said "we know where we aren't welcome" and they moved to the vestibule area which after they did I got a thank you from several passengers.

Some would say in this case I was rather hard on the other passengers but I felt that I was perfectly justified as they were being rather disruptive in a coach that is designed for quiet passengers. Where do you draw the line though.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

People who are swearing or shouting abuse, vomiting, urinating in doorways, smashing bottles on the floor etc, damaging property and attacking people need to be arrested and charged.

In which case you'd end up arrest several thousand in each of Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool etc alone in one night. Totally impractical.

 

[Withnailandi]

Last Chester to Picc when the races are on. Horrendous.

 

[jon0844]

In which case you'd end up arrest several thousand in each of Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool etc alone in one night. Totally impractical.

At first, yes, but I think the result in the longer term would be a marked reduction in antisocial behaviour.

We've managed to make drink driving socially unacceptable (but you could argue it is starting to become a problem again, as people push boundaries through lack of enforcement) so it can be done if there's a desire to do so.

Zero tolerance will eventually get people to comply. Today most people do what they like because they can say 'what are you going to do about it?' and find the answer is nothing.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

At first, yes, but I think the result in the longer term would be a marked reduction in antisocial behaviour.

We've managed to make drink driving socially unacceptable (but you could argue it is starting to become a problem again, as people push boundaries through lack of enforcement) so it can be done if there's a desire to do so.

Zero tolerance will eventually get people to comply. Today most people do what they like because they can say 'what are you going to do about it?' and find the answer is nothing.

I would agree eventually it would stem some of the flow, but arresting people for something like vomiting whilst intoxicated sounds like something to come out of Stalin-era Russia. You'd need practically every registered policeman in the West Midlands in Birmingham alone to arrest people using that sort of yardstick.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Would think the police would rather put them on a train so they become another police forces problem at the other end.

Stick them on a train and they're BTP's problem until they've left the railway at the other end (possibly the problem of the same officer(s) deciding to stick them on a train, given how ludicrously short staffed the BTP are). Eject them from the station and they're the local force's problem immediately (who are likely far better equipped to deal with them)

 

[Robertj21a]

In which case you'd end up arrest several thousand in each of Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool etc alone in one night. Totally impractical.

It just goes to show how ridiculously lenient we have become. No wonder that the law is abused so much.

 

[bramling]

And unfairly penalise the vast majority of people who do manage to drink responsibly?

Just tax it. People don't *need* to drink, even those who are responsible. Use the tax revenue to inject some investment in to the health service, fair given how much we read about how alcohol consumption is currently such a contributor to poor NHS statistics.

All night running on London Underground will just make the problem worse, as did 24-hour drinking.

We have speed limits on the road because some people can't be trusted to make a good judgement on how fast to drive in a given location, don't see people complaining about this unfairly penalising those people who do know how to drive competently.

 

[Statto]

Yawn that's the answer to everything in the UK, let's either ban it or tax it.

As it is 80% of the price of alcohol already goes on tax, with pubs & clubs already suffering, what is needed is educating people the affects of binge drinking, rather than pricing people off alcohol.

 

[jon0844]

If you relied on tax money on booze for funding the NHS, you'd have to encourage people to drink more! That's a totally crazy idea and punishes those who can drink in moderation (and I'd expect they're still the majority).

Other countries offer booze for a lot less than here, and don't have the same problems so it's clearly an attitude problem more than an alcohol problem. If cheap booze was the main cause, the rest of the EU and further afield would be in total anarchy.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Just tax it. People don't *need* to drink, even those who are responsible. Use the tax revenue to inject some investment in to the health service, fair given how much we read about how alcohol consumption is currently such a contributor to poor NHS statistics.

That's a good idea, which is why it's what presently happens

We have speed limits on the road because some people can't be trusted to make a good judgement on how fast to drive in a given location, don't see people complaining about this unfairly penalising those people who do know how to drive competently.

Plenty of people complain about that. The problem is that nobody realises that they're one of the idiots that everyone else needs protection from.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not just an UK thing - travelled on a late evening local train into Freiburg in Germany last year - (lovely summer evening) - plenty of young German youth swigging away on beer , wine and vodka. No problems though the conducter did not do a ticket check ! .

 

[NorthernSpirit]

That Transpennine Ale Trail did settle down last summer, when idiots in fancy dress and banana costumes who were bevved up on larger on the various stations were banned from turning up as the Ale Trail as it was becoming a magnet for hen & stag do's.

The problem being is that its normally the same lot of lard ar** drunks that par-take in this sort of thing. Every Saturday is normally the same as there is always one who will delay the train just so that they and their drunk mates can board, cause problems for other passengers for a few minutes before bailing out at Mirfield to do the same again or in most cases ending up in Brighouse (and in one case as far as Todmorden which isn't even on the Ale Trail itself) and urinating in someones garden.

 

[bramling]

Yawn that's the answer to everything in the UK, let's either ban it or tax it.

As it is 80% of the price of alcohol already goes on tax, with pubs & clubs already suffering, what is needed is educating people the affects of binge drinking, rather than pricing people off alcohol.

Tax it more then, until the increased price starts to reduce demand. Eventually this will start to have an effect.

We are already educating people on the negative health and social effects of binge drinking, this approach is clearly not working since the problem continues, and appears to be getting worse.

As for pubs & clubs suffering, time they adapted and offered a social experience that doesn't rely on people intoxicating themselves to excess (or at all) in order to have a good time, if they are unable to do this then let them be forced to pay for measures which mitigate against the problem they are part of, for example more police. Failing that, let them close down. There are far more essential and important services in the country than pubs and clubs.

I wasn't suggesting funding the health service entirely via tax on alcohol, merely that any (short-term) windfall created could be directed in that direction to achieve some benefit.

 

[RichmondCommu]

What is the definition of Anti-Social Behaviour though? For Example:

I got on a train at Manchester Piccadilly the other day and a group of about 5 people got on and sat where I was in Coach A (Quiet Zone) and the train was rather busy so they sat where they could get a seat. I doubt any of them had tickets.

One of the girls kept using her mobile phone and one of the lads who was drunk was having a conversation with a lad who was sitting 4 rows behind him about some garbage to do with his girlfriends.

I reminded the girl that she was in the quiet zone so she spoke quieter on her mobile and I then reminded her again that its not a case of be quiet its no mobile calls full stop. I then spoke to the drunk lad who was shouting down the coach and then one of the members of the group just said "we know where we aren't welcome" and they moved to the vestibule area which after they did I got a thank you from several passengers.

Some would say in this case I was rather hard on the other passengers but I felt that I was perfectly justified as they were being rather disruptive in a coach that is designed for quiet passengers. Where do you draw the line though.

A quick question here. Have you ever had a night out with your mates (including drinking alcohol) and then caught the train home? All too often we are not aware of our own actions and mistakes when questioning other peoples behaviour.

Do you have any proof that those individuals that annoyed you didn't have tickets? I don't think its very fair to make these kind of assumptions.

 

[alexl92]

I think part of the problem is cultural. In France, whilst they do still have some problems with drunkenness (where doesn't?), there isn't the same level because the culture is that wine and beer (in particular) are to be enjoyed at leisure whilst chatting wtih friends and appreciating the drink - as a result young people are introduced to alcohol at a younger age and with a different attitude towards it, whereas in the UK the culture is to drink as much as you possibly can in order to hve the best time possble. British yp hit 16/18 and go 'Woohoo, I can drink! *guzzle*' whereas for the french, they've been enjoying wine and cheese since 13 or younger, so it's not novel and they've learned to appreciate it.

 

[pne]

I think part of the problem is cultural. In France, whilst they do still have some problems with drunkenness (where doesn't?), there isn't the same level because the culture is that wine and beer (in particular) are to be enjoyed at leisure whilst chatting wtih friends and appreciating the drink - as a result young people are introduced to alcohol at a younger age and with a different attitude towards it, whereas in the UK the culture is to drink as much as you possibly can in order to hve the best time possble. British yp hit 16/18 and go 'Woohoo, I can drink! *guzzle*' whereas for the french, they've been enjoying wine and cheese since 13 or younger, so it's not novel and they've learned to appreciate it.

I'm reminded of a study I had once read about about alcohol use in New York between families of Italian and Irish descent, which also differed wide along similar lines as you mention: Italians "appreciating" vs Irish "guzzling", due to the different role alcohol (especailly wine) played (or didn't play) in their culture.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think part of the problem is cultural. In France, whilst they do still have some problems with drunkenness (where doesn't?), there isn't the same level because the culture is that wine and beer (in particular) are to be enjoyed at leisure whilst chatting wtih friends and appreciating the drink - as a result young people are introduced to alcohol at a younger age and with a different attitude towards it, whereas in the UK the culture is to drink as much as you possibly can in order to hve the best time possble. British yp hit 16/18 and go 'Woohoo, I can drink! *guzzle*' whereas for the french, they've been enjoying wine and cheese since 13 or younger, so it's not novel and they've learned to appreciate it.

Are you suggesting that to have a good time with alcohol you have to eat cheese? Perhaps if our own young people learn't to eat cheese we would have less issues with drunken anti social behavior.

 

[FQ]

Surly the Manchester Airport to York services through the night will be pretty bad.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[jon0844]

It's fine to suggest closing pubs and clubs, but surely we don't all live to work, so to get rid of things people like to do for leisure is rather silly.

What you do is change attitudes, which can surely be done? It didn't take many years to see almost everyone get addicted to smartphones and spend their life on them, preferring to communicate with people that are miles away than those just metres away. At some point, we're going to need to try and stop this - and I'm very much a victim and was so years before most given my line of work.

I don't propose pricing booze so high it will either be only for the rich, or will just mean people still drink anyway but now have no money left for anything else.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Yawn that's the answer to everything in the UK, let's either ban it or tax it.

As it is 80% of the price of alcohol already goes on tax, with pubs & clubs already suffering, what is needed is educating people the affects of binge drinking, rather than pricing people off alcohol.

I think this might be the most sensible thing I've read on this thread. Increasing indirect taxes like VAT and alcohol/tobacco duties always disproportionately affect the poorest, and no price is going to stop an addict if they want a drink therefore pushing them further towards 'lawlessness,' or a life of crime, desperation and despondency. To try and ban or tax things into obsolescence is the worst form of populism and scores zilch for policy creativity or dynamism. What's needed is a serious look at 24 hour drinking and how the supermarkets can get away with selling staggering amounts of alcohol for a fraction of what you'd pay in the pubs and clubs (which means people tank-up and are already p*ssed before they even leave the house, rather than going to a pub and consuming alcohol in an at least partially-controlled environment.)

 

[jon0844]

Preloading has been a thing in Sweden for years. And drinking at home before going out actually came about because of the high price of alcohol in bars. So now we're seeing similar price hikes (£5 a pint in some London pubs) we will get more people doing it. Supermarkets would still be cheaper whatever happens.