Antisocial behaviour on trains

[BestWestern]

Preloading has been a thing in Sweden for years. And drinking at home before going out actually came about because of the high price of alcohol in bars. So now we're seeing similar price hikes (£5 a pint in some London pubs) we will get more people doing it. Supermarkets would still be cheaper whatever happens.

Perhaps then it's time we considered whether a supermarket is an appropriate place to sell booze?! Yes I'm serious. For all the uproar and outcry, we cannot continue to ignore that the UK has a serious problem with people who drink to excess. It's everywhere you find trouble - friday and saturday nights in our town centres, football crowds, 'Real Ale' trains (a concept one presumes was aimed squarely at responsible mature 'proper beer' drinkers but which has since been predictably hijacked by roudy p*sshead idiots). The fact is that the nation would be far better off if and when somebody has the balls to reign it in. Pubs and clubs who have the sole aim of getting people unreasonably intoxicated need to be stamped on, as does the local Asda or wherever flogging dirt cheap cans of own-brand lager and bottles of drain cleaning-grade spirits. Think about it, who drinks the stuff? Do you place it proudly on the table when you have friends around for dinner?! Do you hell, it exists to fuel those desperate for booze as cheaply as possible. I wholeheartedly agree that alcohol needs to be unit-priced, and it needs to not be 'cheap'. Yes it'll upset people, but frankly tough. Drink less of the stuff and enjoy it more. You can brew your own stuff indoors if you really don't want to pay for it! As for 'education' - as a society we are a long, long way beyond that and it really isn't difficult to see. Anybody who seriously thinks that is a solution of any sort is terribly naive. De-licence the supermarkets and sell the stuff only in off licences. If people have to do something more than walk 2 minutes up the road and look for whatever is on offer cheapest this week, then our alcohol-fuelled culture might have some hope of recovering.

 

[al78]

One question that needs to be asked is why do a significant minority feel the need to drink to such excess in the first place? Is it really worse in the UK than other countries. If so, why?

 

[sarahj]

Its a northern European thing. Places like Sweden restrict the sale of booze, but boy, do they drink to excess. I was living in Karlstad in the late 90's as part of a uni course, and they drank to excess, and then some more. The ferry from Stockholm to Helsinki even has a special sick proof room the put them when they get carried away.
A group of us went to Norway, English, German, French and Swedish for a little trip. both nights we had to send the Swedes back to the camp site early as they just went whoahhhh.

We, the British (English perhaps), have a little scanidi in us in that we like to drink to excess a little, and perhaps when we are young, but mainly moderate as we get older, but still mainly drink to have a good time, sometimes overdoing it, but 95% of the time being ok. We will never have a French, Spanish or attitude to alcohol as their culture is based on a few glasses of wine, outside in the summer, with a meal, perhaps with the family. For us its, down the pub (no kids), and drinking pints.

So yes, we, in this country, can be bad, but we dont drink like the scandis, and we deff dont drink like the Russians.


So, the trains this morning on the west coastal services from Brighton, were a bit brash, some loud, and few kids being a bit sweary. but by 09.00 they were all gone, and will not come back out again for a few days.

 

[jon0844]

One question that needs to be asked is why do a significant minority feel the need to drink to such excess in the first place? Is it really worse in the UK than other countries. If so, why?

We seem to judge people on how much they can drink, and peer pressure ensures people will consume more than they would on their own.

A measure of a good night out is how little you can remember.

I suspect everyone grows out of it, unless they become alcohol dependent.

 

[muz379]

Perhaps then it's time we considered whether a supermarket is an appropriate place to sell booze?! Yes I'm serious. For all the uproar and outcry, we cannot continue to ignore that the UK has a serious problem with people who drink to excess. It's everywhere you find trouble - friday and saturday nights in our town centres, football crowds, 'Real Ale' trains (a concept one presumes was aimed squarely at responsible mature 'proper beer' drinkers but which has since been predictably hijacked by roudy p*sshead idiots). The fact is that the nation would be far better off if and when somebody has the balls to reign it in. Pubs and clubs who have the sole aim of getting people unreasonably intoxicated need to be stamped on, as does the local Asda or wherever flogging dirt cheap cans of own-brand lager and bottles of drain cleaning-grade spirits. Think about it, who drinks the stuff? Do you place it proudly on the table when you have friends around for dinner?! Do you hell, it exists to fuel those desperate for booze as cheaply as possible. I wholeheartedly agree that alcohol needs to be unit-priced, and it needs to not be 'cheap'. Yes it'll upset people, but frankly tough. Drink less of the stuff and enjoy it more. You can brew your own stuff indoors if you really don't want to pay for it! As for 'education' - as a society we are a long, long way beyond that and really isn't difficult to see it. Anybody who seriously thinks that is a solution of any sort is terribly naieve. De-licence the supermarkets and sell the stuff only in off licences. If people have to do something more than walk 2 minutes up the road and look for whatever is on offer cheapest this week, then our alcohol-fuelled culture might have some hope of recovering.

I actually tend to agree with the sentiments of what you are saying here

On the ale trail trains its the young lads going out and drinking a pint of lager and a shot of whisky or sambuca or vodka at every pub. The middle aged and older men who are actually going out for the real ale are hardly ever the problem , they are usually in high spirits yes but they are certainly no trouble . The young lads who have had too many larger and vodkas however think that they can fight anything and anyone .

As for selling cheap larger at supermarkets . I actually think more alcohol duty is required . When you can buy a litre of own brand vodka for about a tenner I dont see how any more tax here would be harmful .

As for bars and clubs , make them actually comply with licensing law . You cant serve someone who is intoxicated but clearly that is often contravened . Bars and Clubs just make their money pouring this crap down peoples necks and then they spill out onto the streets at closing time and once the bouncers have removed them all they are the polices problem . I want to see bars and clubs actually contribute to local policing in the same way football clubs do . and I want to see the police and local licensing teams actually put their foot down on clubs that allow people to reach these levels of intoxication add to that clubs that are complicit in drug taking on their premises should be shut down and the owners banned from running a licensed premises in the future .

 

[455driver]

A night in the cells + a fine would probably discourage future re-offending. If they've got the money to waste on the alcohol they can waste a bit more of their hard-earned contributing to the costs of being dealt with for a night.

Or a night in the cells (possibly a breakfast thrown in so your human rights are not infringed :roll and then released without charge the next morning!

Why would anyone pay for a taxi or a Hotel when you can get it for free just by acting the tw@!

 

[Starmill]

If you were to arrest people for vomiting, swearing or urinating in Leeds on a typical Saturday night, you would probably have thousands come the dawn. Leeds at 5 am on Saturday morning is like a post apocalyptic cesspit.

 

[muz379]

Or a night in the cells (possibly a breakfast thrown in so your human rights are not infringed :roll and then released without charge the next morning!

Why would anyone pay for a taxi or a Hotel when you can get it for free just by acting the tw@!

Ironically if you are taken into police custody whilst intoxicated and posibbly under the influence of drugs you are probably going to get better medical attention and care than if you ended up at A&E and your certainly going to get looked after better than if you just went home because the police are kind of keen to prevent you dying whilst in custody

 

[RichmondCommu]

Or a night in the cells (possibly a breakfast thrown in so your human rights are not infringed :roll and then released without charge the next morning!

Why would anyone pay for a taxi or a Hotel when you can get it for free just by acting the tw@!

You're making the assumption here that there are plenty of empty cells on a Friday and Saturday night. Let me assure you that this is not the case!

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps then it's time we considered whether a supermarket is an appropriate place to sell booze?! Yes I'm serious. For all the uproar and outcry, we cannot continue to ignore that the UK has a serious problem with people who drink to excess. It's everywhere you find trouble - friday and saturday nights in our town centres, football crowds, 'Real Ale' trains (a concept one presumes was aimed squarely at responsible mature 'proper beer' drinkers but which has since been predictably hijacked by roudy p*sshead idiots). The fact is that the nation would be far better off if and when somebody has the balls to reign it in. Pubs and clubs who have the sole aim of getting people unreasonably intoxicated need to be stamped on, as does the local Asda or wherever flogging dirt cheap cans of own-brand lager and bottles of drain cleaning-grade spirits. Think about it, who drinks the stuff? Do you place it proudly on the table when you have friends around for dinner?! Do you hell, it exists to fuel those desperate for booze as cheaply as possible. I wholeheartedly agree that alcohol needs to be unit-priced, and it needs to not be 'cheap'. Yes it'll upset people, but frankly tough. Drink less of the stuff and enjoy it more. You can brew your own stuff indoors if you really don't want to pay for it! As for 'education' - as a society we are a long, long way beyond that and really isn't difficult to see it. Anybody who seriously thinks that is a solution of any sort is terribly naieve. De-licence the supermarkets and sell the stuff only in off licences. If people have to do something more than walk 2 minutes up the road and look for whatever is on offer cheapest this week, then our alcohol-fuelled culture might have some hope of recovering.

Couldn't agree more, nice to see such sensible comments. I don't care what all the do-gooders think, just force the prices up (most notably at supermarkets). We seem unable to control an increasing population of drunks and the health services and police have to use their resources to sort it all out.

I don't want my taxes spent on pampering drunks and putting vulnerable, genuinely ill, people at the end of a waiting list of idiots.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Couldn't agree more, nice to see such sensible comments. I don't care what all the do-gooders think, just force the prices up (most notably at supermarkets). We seem unable to control an increasing population of drunks and the health services and police have to use their resources to sort it all out.

I don't want my taxes spent on pampering drunks and putting vulnerable, genuinely ill, people at the end of a waiting list of idiots.

It all depends on what prices you intend to put up. Four bottles of bitter for £6.00 is not crazy cheap but its certainly cheaper then going to the pub, even outside of London.

 

[GatwickDepress]

You're making the assumption here that there are plenty of empty cells on a Friday and Saturday night. Let me assure you that this is not the case!

Nor is the food anything to write home about. One's likely to get more nutrition and taste by sucking the rubber mattress.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Nor is the food anything to write home about. One's likely to get more nutrition and taste by sucking the rubber mattress.

If you're lucky a friendly desk sergeant like my wife will show you some kindness if you behave.

 

[Aldaniti]

Perhaps then it's time we considered whether a supermarket is an appropriate place to sell booze?! Yes I'm serious. For all the uproar and outcry, we cannot continue to ignore that the UK has a serious problem with people who drink to excess. It's everywhere you find trouble - friday and saturday nights in our town centres, football crowds, 'Real Ale' trains (a concept one presumes was aimed squarely at responsible mature 'proper beer' drinkers but which has since been predictably hijacked by roudy p*sshead idiots). The fact is that the nation would be far better off if and when somebody has the balls to reign it in. Pubs and clubs who have the sole aim of getting people unreasonably intoxicated need to be stamped on, as does the local Asda or wherever flogging dirt cheap cans of own-brand lager and bottles of drain cleaning-grade spirits. Think about it, who drinks the stuff? Do you place it proudly on the table when you have friends around for dinner?! Do you hell, it exists to fuel those desperate for booze as cheaply as possible. I wholeheartedly agree that alcohol needs to be unit-priced, and it needs to not be 'cheap'. Yes it'll upset people, but frankly tough. Drink less of the stuff and enjoy it more. You can brew your own stuff indoors if you really don't want to pay for it! As for 'education' - as a society we are a long, long way beyond that and really isn't difficult to see it. Anybody who seriously thinks that is a solution of any sort is terribly naieve. De-licence the supermarkets and sell the stuff only in off licences. If people have to do something more than walk 2 minutes up the road and look for whatever is on offer cheapest this week, then our alcohol-fuelled culture might have some hope of recovering.

Spot on. The first hurdle however is to tackle the problem of politicians (local and national) who are in the pocket of the drinks industry.

 

[Antman]

Ironically if you are taken into police custody whilst intoxicated and posibbly under the influence of drugs you are probably going to get better medical attention and care than if you ended up at A&E and your certainly going to get looked after better than if you just went home because the police are kind of keen to prevent you dying whilst in custody

That is certainly true, deaths in custody are quite rightly frowned upon
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You're making the assumption here that there are plenty of empty cells on a Friday and Saturday night. Let me assure you that this is not the case!

Indeed and that is the main reason why these fixed penalty fines were introduced
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps then it's time we considered whether a supermarket is an appropriate place to sell booze?! Yes I'm serious. For all the uproar and outcry, we cannot continue to ignore that the UK has a serious problem with people who drink to excess. It's everywhere you find trouble - friday and saturday nights in our town centres, football crowds, 'Real Ale' trains (a concept one presumes was aimed squarely at responsible mature 'proper beer' drinkers but which has since been predictably hijacked by roudy p*sshead idiots). The fact is that the nation would be far better off if and when somebody has the balls to reign it in. Pubs and clubs who have the sole aim of getting people unreasonably intoxicated need to be stamped on, as does the local Asda or wherever flogging dirt cheap cans of own-brand lager and bottles of drain cleaning-grade spirits. Think about it, who drinks the stuff? Do you place it proudly on the table when you have friends around for dinner?! Do you hell, it exists to fuel those desperate for booze as cheaply as possible. I wholeheartedly agree that alcohol needs to be unit-priced, and it needs to not be 'cheap'. Yes it'll upset people, but frankly tough. Drink less of the stuff and enjoy it more. You can brew your own stuff indoors if you really don't want to pay for it! As for 'education' - as a society we are a long, long way beyond that and really isn't difficult to see it. Anybody who seriously thinks that is a solution of any sort is terribly naieve. De-licence the supermarkets and sell the stuff only in off licences. If people have to do something more than walk 2 minutes up the road and look for whatever is on offer cheapest this week, then our alcohol-fuelled culture might have some hope of recovering.

But most of us go into supermarkets, buy our alcohol and take it home and drink it without causing any problem to anybody.

It isn't the alcohol that is the problem it is the misuse of it by an irresponsible minority and it seems to be something to do with the British culture. I rarely see such problems abroad and any I do see are invaribly boozy Brits!

 

[yorksrob]

1. Start by increasing tax on alcohol by another 50%

Good luck in getting people to vote for that, as I certainly won't be.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps then it's time we considered whether a supermarket is an appropriate place to sell booze?!

But where else would you sell it ? I don't think a blanket ban on alcohol for consumption at home would be desirable or enforceable.

That said, I'm not against minimum unit pricing for alcohol. I'm of the opinion that a pint of beer for £3 - £4 which is what it tends to be in most pubs, really doesn't need to be made more expensive. However, I can understand the concern with booze being flogged at ridiculously cheap prices.

 

[muz379]

But where else would you sell it ? I don't think a blanket ban on alcohol for consumption at home would be desirable or enforceable.

That said, I'm not against minimum unit pricing for alcohol. I'm of the opinion that a pint of beer for £3 - £4 which is what it tends to be in most pubs, really doesn't need to be made more expensive. However, I can understand the concern with booze being flogged at ridiculously cheap prices.

This is where many people wrongly saw blind panic and rejected minimum unit pricing in my opinion

Minimum unit pricing would have not effected the cost of drinking in a pub where a pint of beer with about 2.5-3 units is already around £3-£4 well above the proposed minimum unit price of 50p .

The minimum unit pricing would however have hit the drain cleaning lighter fuel like vodka and other spirits as well as the own brand larger sold in supermarkets . Lets face it these are the drinks that are the problem with people buying them as the cheapest route to getting drunk .It would have also hit the nightclubs doing shots for 1p or bottles of beer for 1p like some of them have been known to do in the past

 

[yorksrob]

This is where many people wrongly saw blind panic and rejected minimum unit pricing in my opinion

Minimum unit pricing would have not effected the cost of drinking in a pub where a pint of beer with about 2.5-3 units is already around £3-£4 well above the proposed minimum unit price of 50p .

The minimum unit pricing would however have hit the drain cleaning lighter fuel like vodka and other spirits as well as the own brand larger sold in supermarkets . Lets face it these are the drinks that are the problem with people buying them as the cheapest route to getting drunk .It would have also hit the nightclubs doing shots for 1p or bottles of beer for 1p like some of them have been known to do in the past

Indeed. This would be far better for the hospitality industry than the sort of blanket tax hikes that have been undertaken in recent years.

 

[LateThanNever]

This is where many people wrongly saw blind panic and rejected minimum unit pricing in my opinion

Minimum unit pricing would have not effected the cost of drinking in a pub where a pint of beer with about 2.5-3 units is already around £3-£4 well above the proposed minimum unit price of 50p .

The minimum unit pricing would however have hit the drain cleaning lighter fuel like vodka and other spirits as well as the own brand lager sold in supermarkets . Lets face it these are the drinks that are the problem with people buying them as the cheapest route to getting drunk .It would have also hit the nightclubs doing shots for 1p or bottles of beer for 1p like some of them have been known to do in the past

Absolutely right.
A missed opportunity and (working for a long time in the drinks industry) it was also something that was not generally opposed by people that worked in it. It would have affected the supermarkets and those retailers illegitimately avoiding duty, and in effect nobody else - and even then all would be complying with the same conditions. The other thing the government should do, as a start, is tax alcohol according to volume, rather than having 'bands' as at present. The current system makes (amongst other anomalies) cider and alcopops cheaper and low alcohol wines more expensive than their 'volume' rate would otherwise be.
This would produce a more level playing field and then you just have to work on self-restraint by the consumer, which is the difficult bit! The more we all drink generally the more difficult it is to resist another. I fear this only comes with practice... This isn't entirely a counsel of despair as we are, as a nation, in spite of the 24hour licensing, drinking less year on year...
And alcohol is a drug, albeit one which most of the population have generations of history dealing with, but for some people it is character changing and/or highly addictive. Given this we are unlikely ever to sort out all the problems it causes but we could certainly make some improvements to the current situation.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Speaking as a member of CAMRA of many years I will would like to point out that real ale lovers are not immune from acts of misbehavior after they've had a few. I think sometimes its all rather too easy to point the blame at lager drinkers. Walk into a Wetherspoons on a weekday afternoon and some of the worst culprits have been drinking bitter all day.

 

[Antman]

Speaking as a member of CAMRA of many years I will would like to point out that real ale lovers are not immune from acts of misbehavior after they've had a few. I think sometimes its all rather too easy to point the blame at lager drinkers. Walk into a Wetherspoons on a weekday afternoon and some of the worst culprits have been drinking bitter all day.

Absolutely, they're not all the stereotypical lager louts

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps it's equally worth pointing out at this stage that sober people are also not immune from misbehaviour.

 

[muz379]

Speaking as a member of CAMRA of many years I will would like to point out that real ale lovers are not immune from acts of misbehavior after they've had a few. I think sometimes its all rather too easy to point the blame at lager drinkers. Walk into a Wetherspoons on a weekday afternoon and some of the worst culprits have been drinking bitter all day.

Oh Im well aware of the fact .

Just that my experience of working some Ale trail trains tells me that majority of the trouble is caused by young lads walking around with a bottle of fosters or something in their hands who have had too much larger .

Maybe its more about volumes drunk and aims for the day . Larger drinkers are going out to have a "messy" day and get as drunk as possible and so drink accordingly . Wheras ale drinkers are going out to actually enjoy some ale and maybe the scenery .

And this is speaking as someone who drinks larger some of the time . Although not in the excesses everyone else seems to do .

 

[RichmondCommu]

Oh Im well aware of the fact .

Just that my experience of working some Ale trail trains tells me that majority of the trouble is caused by young lads walking around with a bottle of fosters or something in their hands who have had too much larger .

Maybe its more about volumes drunk and aims for the day . Larger drinkers are going out to have a "messy" day and get as drunk as possible and so drink accordingly . Wheras ale drinkers are going out to actually enjoy some ale and maybe the scenery .

And this is speaking as someone who drinks larger some of the time . Although not in the excesses everyone else seems to do .

Once again, please do not suggest that all real ale drinkers are saints. And in my experience middle age drinkers (of which I'm one of them) are all too often worse than men in their twenties, the excuse being that they are "away from the wife" for the day.

And as a member of CAMRA, I don't think its fair to start making an example of people who drink Fosters or indeed any other lager brand. A pint of Fosters has the same effect as a pint of Pride.

 

[sarahj]

Funny thing I've noticed is Football fans. The worst on the train are groups of men aged 50 odd. They go to a match, drink, watch the footie, drink, then come back on the train and drink. Even asking them to do something like move from first class,or even see their ticket and you get a load of abuse. Last week there was a group of them in first, and as the train was busy, I said, ok, you can stay. Still got abuse.
Loud, leery, obnoxious and all in their late 40's, early 50's.
I do sometimes think, these were the guys who caused all the trouble when they were young in the late 70's/early 80's at matches and have still not grown up.

 

[muz379]

Once again, please do not suggest that all real ale drinkers are saints. And in my experience middle age drinkers (of which I'm one of them) are all too often worse than men in their twenties, the excuse being that they are "away from the wife" for the day.

And as a member of CAMRA, I don't think its fair to start making an example of people who drink Fosters or indeed any other lager brand. A pint of Fosters has the same effect as a pint of Pride.

This is however my experience as I see it working the ale trail trains and nothing you say will change what I have actually experienced myself

.If you actually read what I said I did say that majority of the trouble is caused by young drinkers .Ive had middle aged drinkers causing problems before , they are slightly different problems but yes they do cause them . Its just that majority of the problems do not come form this group .


Ive certainly never had to attempt to break up a fight between two middle aged men on an ale trail . Ive certainly never had to ring the BTP for a middle aged drinker who has decided climbing down onto the track to cross between platforms is a good idea or indeed a young lady who decided the track was the perfect place to use the toilet so she climbed down and did so . My experience is that younger drinkers walking around with fosters(or any other cheapish larger) are the ones who cause majority of the issues and exhibit behavoir which warrants attention by the police . Middle aged drinkers have been known to cause problems but its certainly less frequently than the young lads and ladies with their larger .

Yes the middle aged ale trailers just like the younger ones are indeed a bit noisy and rowdy having a laugh with their mates . But then so can younger groups of sober teenagers or any other group of people for that matter . It is not this that causes me a problem . It is 9 times out of 10 a young lad who has had to much larger and wants to fight someone or something or is no longer capable of looking after his own safety .

Im not saying there is anything wrong with fosters , it is however the case that in my experience some drinkers of it (and other cheap larger) do behave in a way that is unacceptable when they have had too much . Its not the drink its the consumer having too much that is often the problem .

I do agree that the effects are the same between a pint of fosters and a pint of pride . But the effects between 5 pints of fosters and 2 pints of pride are certainly not the same .

 

[Tibbs]

A night in the cells + a fine would probably discourage future re-offending. If they've got the money to waste on the alcohol they can waste a bit more of their hard-earned contributing to the costs of being dealt with for a night.

As someone who has spent the night in the cells as a result of Drunk & Disorderly (no fine though) I feel able to say conclusively that it has no effect on future behaviour whatsoever.

Growing up on the other hand, did.

 

[Hyphen]

I don't want my taxes spent on pampering drunks and putting vulnerable, genuinely ill, people at the end of a waiting list of idiots.

And I don't want my taxes spent lining the pockets of a certain Mr. Souter and his counterparts in other similar organisations, but we can't all have what we want.

 

[Robertj21a]

And I don't want my taxes spent lining the pockets of a certain Mr. Souter and his counterparts in other similar organisations, but we can't all have what we want.

Alright, I'll fall for it - what reckless behaviour has Brian Souter been up to that you don't like ?

Or is it that you just don't like clever people running major businesses?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were to arrest people for vomiting, swearing or urinating

I'm going to take issue with the latter. The issue with people urinating in town centres once kicked out of closed pubs etc is because there are no public toilets. In most other countries there are, even late at night, albeit for a fee.

If you've had a number of pints you can't necessarily "hold it" all the way home.

Of course, people should arguably not drink so much it becomes an issue. But it could easily be stopped being an issue if attended public toilets were reintroduced, even if there was a charge for their use.

Neil