Alliance Rail

[YorkshireRider]

Is it not time for Alliance to bog off and stop wasting everybody's time.

 

[pt_mad]

Is it not time for Alliance to bog off and stop wasting everybody's time.

But as regards their West Coast plans, are these not completely viable?

Run the xx33 path out of Euston with Pendos.

What is the problem with allowing that?

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly tbtc its an ORCATs raid but not even bothering to hide it!

It also allows for them to secure long term services and buy their own rolling stock, while the East Coast franchise will be for a shorter term and they'll have to lease rolling stock of DfT's choosing.

will they be as good at running trains as they are at using photoshop?

For practical purposes it would be a Grand Central service under a GNER name. While Alliance and Grand Central were rivals after Ian Yeowart left GC and started up Alliance they are both owned by the same company now so are sister companies where Alliance do the planning and Grand Central do the day to day running.
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But as regards their West Coast plans, are these not completely viable?

Run the xx33 path out of Euston with Pendos.

What is the problem with allowing that?

Isn't that the one the WC franchise bids wanted for new Lancashire services?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The RUS view of that path is that it should go to Preston and/or Liverpool, stopping in the Trent Valley and Crewe/Warrington/Wigan.
This would allow the nn30 Glasgows to be speeded up south of Preston.
What if Alliance didn't want to do that?
Do you disadvantage (say) Glasgow and Liverpool so that Alliance can serve whatever stations it wants?

 

[pt_mad]

Isn't that the one the WC franchise bids wanted for new Lancashire services?

Yes from what I understand this is the only spare path and all are competing for that.

 

[londonboi]

just seen this on the bbc news website

would look fantastic seeing these going up and down the ECML although didnt virgin trains want to run the WCML and the ECML it would make sense to give it to them surely after all the work they done the WCML to get the 390's running they would have learnt the mistakes on the WCML so can learn from that to make the ECML work

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-25340545

 

[northwichcat]

The RUS view of that path is that it should go to Preston and/or Liverpool, stopping in the Trent Valley and Crewe/Warrington/Wigan.
This would allow the nn30 Glasgows to be speeded up south of Preston.
What if Alliance didn't want to do that?
Do you disadvantage (say) Glasgow and Liverpool so that Alliance can serve whatever stations it wants?

One of the Alliance proposals is for a 2 hourly Euston-Blackpool interworked with a 2 hourly Euston-Carlisle via Barrow service. The Alliance proposal is slower than the West Coast one for the additional Lancashire service alternating between Blackpool and Lancaster but it would serve more stations and create more new direct links e.g. Warrington to Winsford and Crewe/Warrington to Barrow.

 

[Geezertronic]

I doubt they would be 390s (probably a newer one with a different class) but I guess it would be good to see

 

[Harpers Tate]

They may be fast, but I think the Pendos on the WCML are very claustrophobic inside - especially with their miniscule portholes where windows should be, especially when busy and strapped out with people and luggage, and even more especially if you are "lucky" enough to get the seats at the end of the car that are not by a window at all.

 

[northwichcat]

GNER being now a trading name of Alliance Rail rather than of Deep Sea Containers.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

They may be fast, but I think the Pendos on the WCML are very claustrophobic inside - especially with their miniscule portholes where windows should be, especially when busy and strapped out with people and luggage, and even more especially if you are "lucky" enough to get the seats at the end of the car that are not by a window at all.

Couldn't have put it better myself, sitting in the seats 'not by a window' is like sitting in a cupboard underneath the stairs!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is this perhaps in response to the expectation that on December 6th they would have a decision on their West Coast application? Is this a case of plan F rejected straight into promoting plan H? They do seem to have a historical habit of taking every rejection of their plans as an invitation to be even more adventerous in their next proposal.

Their persistence paid off with the initial Grand Central service, even though that plan relied heavily on revenue abstraction at York.

As for finding the paths on the ECML, that shouldn't be too much of a challenge. The current pathing was agreed on the basis that NXEC were to run trains to Lincoln, and indeed several 180s were allocated to them for that very service. The service didn't happen because of the franchise failure, becoming a pointless Newark "short", and the 180s were handed to First Great Western after a stint on loan at Northern. Given NXEC didn't run the service they said they were going to, I wouldn't see an issue with taking the paths off them and giving them to someone else.

The question will be who that someone else is. At that last pathing auction First Hull Trains wanted to run a London to Harrogate service via York, and Grand Central wanted the paths to run extra trains to Yorkshire and the north east. The ORR went with NXEC whose plans were never implemented.

 

[Geezertronic]

Slight exaggerations from you two there, wonder how you cope flying then

 

[Tetchytyke]

Even on Sleazyjet or Ryanair the seats line up with the windows. The Pendolinos have huge bulkheads and if you're in a seat next to one you can't see a thing.

 

[pt_mad]

One of the Alliance proposals is for a 2 hourly Euston-Blackpool interworked with a 2 hourly Euston-Carlisle via Barrow service. The Alliance proposal is slower than the West Coast one for the additional Lancashire service alternating between Blackpool and Lancaster but it would serve more stations and create more new direct links e.g. Warrington to Winsford and Crewe/Warrington to Barrow.

So is the proposed West Coast path for Blackpool and Lancaster or Liverpool and Preston (as someone said was the preferred option).

Who is the RUS?

And if Virgin got this path could it happen this franchise?

 

[Oswyntail]

Slight exaggerations from you two there, wonder how you cope flying then

No exaggeration at all. Flying is as bad if not worse, but at least aircraft "designers" can claim there's not that much to see. Being able to see stuff out of the windows is one of the prime elements in rail advertising. To anyone of moderate height or above, all you can see on a Pendo is the PW.

 

[sprinterguy]

just seen this on the bbc news website

would look fantastic seeing these going up and down the ECML although didnt virgin trains want to run the WCML and the ECML it would make sense to give it to them surely after all the work they done the WCML to get the 390's running they would have learnt the mistakes on the WCML so can learn from that to make the ECML work

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-25340545

Virgin will be bidding for the East Coast franchise yes, with a 10% stake in a partnership with Stagecoach. The winning bidder of the East Coast franchise, Virgin or otherwise, will have to use the new Intercity Express trains stipulated in the franchise by the Government (though with some free reign to specify the formation and internal layout), not Pendolinos.

The Alliance Rail open access proposals that intend to resurrect the Great North Eastern Railway title are already being discussed here (as mentioned by jcollins):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93853

 

[gordonthemoron]

I often travel after sunset, can't see a thing

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The RUS is the Network Rail Route Utilisation Strategy (on their web site).
This predates the last franchise shambles but is still the NR view of how to get the best out of the capacity available.
Much of this depends on the completion of the Stafford/Norton Bridge upgrade, which hasn't started yet. It might be ready for 2016/17.
Before then there are capacity and reliability problems, which is why Virgin can't get approval for extra paths, so no chance for Alliance either.

VT only have 2 Voyagers available, and planned to use one on Shrewsbury and one on Blackpool, two round trips each (ie 4 of the nn33 paths out of Euston), but this has not yet been approved.
Beyond that they will need new trains.
They planned to replace the Voyagers with Pendolinos but that's off the agenda now until the next franchise agreement.

2016 (Dec) is the date for a new WCML timetable, and the Alliance proposals are aiming to start running then.
To do that they need to place orders for trains in the next year.
LM and the freight TOCs also want extra paths.
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Brochure now on the Alliance web site: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/Edinburgh_Briefing_Document.pdf

Hourly service King's Cross-Edinburgh calling only at Newcastle, journey time 3h43m.
Apart from local depots they are proposing to use the current Alstom Wembley and Polmadie depots for maintenance.
£300m investment apparently.
9-coach Pendolinos, 217m length. Needs new platform at Edinburgh.
They will fund TASS on the curvy sections of the ECML (north of Darlington).
They want 15 years of access rights to make it worthwhile.

 

[ianhr]

I for one, as a regular user of EastCoast, will NOT be pleased to see Pendos. I think the 390s are dreadful trains. The performance may be good but the passenger environment is appalling and I note from the posts above that I am not alone in thinking this.

If I wanted to fly I would fly, I don't want the illusion that I am in an aeroplane on rails! Anyhow, as has already been pointed out you have a better chance of a window seat and a view on Easyjet or Ryanair!

 

[gordonthemoron]

at least Pendo seat backs are not as high as Mallards

 

[sprinterguy]

I doubt they would be 390s (probably a newer one with a different class) but I guess it would be good to see

If it was possible for a new build of Pendolinos to retain the taller windows, within the UK loading gauge, and proportion of table bays currently seen on the New Pendolinos in service in Switzerland then that wouldn’t be bad. They still seemed a bit dark inside though.

 

[Jonny]

I can't see how it's going to be any faster than the IEP with ERTMS/ETCS, which will enable 140mph running anyway. Besides, where are the paths going to come from?
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Just to make matters worse, according to Wikipedia (as well as some open data-driven sites), East Coast Train's designation is "GR", from the days when GNER was the name of the franchised operator on that route.

 

[gordonthemoron]

actually, it sounds pretty good (from what I read)

 

[jon0844]

Is it not time for Alliance to bog off and stop wasting everybody's time.

Alliance has probably done some harm to the HS2 campaign too. You can be sure that people will now latch on to this and use it as an argument for why HS2 isn't needed (however flawed we know it will be).

Add in people saying they could do the same on the WCML and, bingo, suddenly a new wave of arguments about how we can just use the existing network to solve all our current and future problems.

Good as the current open access operators are, they're hardly providing the same level of service (frequency) to make a massive impact on anything.

 

[BantamMenace]

So if they fund TASS north of Newcastle. How possible/expensive would it be to add tilting capabilities to say {figure plucked from the sky} 20 or so IEPs or however many are needed for Scotland services so they can utilise the max speeds?

 

[ainsworth74]

Seeing as IEP isn't designed for tilt very expensive and very difficult...

 

[BantamMenace]

So a complete no go. So they'd have to fund all TASS themselves as there'd be no other benefactor other than themselves

 

[YorkshireBear]

This is dangerous dangerous territory. If they invest 300 million they need a long pay back. What happens post HS2 then? When we dont want trains going non stop Newcastle-London. If they have a long contract we have to honor it!

Makes me feel uneasy if government are considering this. I sincerely hope they are not.

 

[cf111]

This is an aside, but if the signalling was installed on the ECML would Class 91s be allowed to travel at 140MPH assuming the cab equipment was installed?