Alliance Rail

[Masbroughlad]

From the Alliance Rail website:

"A NEW BRIEFING DOCUMENT WILL BE AVAILABLE AFTER MIDDAY ON 12TH DECEMBER 2013. PLEASE CHECK BACK THEN"

Does that mean they have one prepared for whatever the outcome of the bid to run new Open Access services?

1) Successful - extensive, glossy brochure of exciting plans to come
2) Unsuccessful - ???? Closure of Alliance Rail - just one of my thoughts.....

I hope it is number (1)!!

What do you reckon?

 

[markydh]

Plans for new high-speed trains between London, Newcastle and Edinburgh have been announced.

Great North Eastern Railway (GNER) said the "pendolinos" would cut journey times by up to 40 minutes.

The proposals are for tilting, rolling stock capable of up to 140 mph running on a curved track.

Faster journeys would add to "the appeal of the train as being greener and easier than flying", a spokesman said.

The project aims to cut the travelling time from London to Edinburgh from 4 hours 20 minutes to 3 hours 43 minutes. From the capital to Newcastle would take 2 hours 29 minutes.

Similar trains are currently being used on the West Coast Main Line.

The plans are yet to be formally approved by the Office of Rail Regulation.

GNER intends to start the service on the East Coast Main Line in December 2016.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-25340545

I'm guessing this is what will be released later today...

 

[YorkshireBear]

They haven't got a chance in my opinion. Where are these paths for 140mph trains?

 

[Eagle]

Also I'd imagine they wouldn't get very far with the ORR with a service that is nothing but fare abstraction. Unless there's some route they're taking that makes it different enough to East Coast.

 

[ainsworth74]

The plan above hasn't got a chance in hell. There isn't room in the timetable, someone will need to pay to fit track beacons for TASS, there's the ongoing issue with +125mph running an the need in-cab signalling and they'll be shot down for revenue abstraction. As usual Alliance Rail are all talk with no substance.

Of course if the above isn't what's happening then I reserve the right to change my statements

 

[Eagle]

Well the article was written by someone who doesn't know that Pendolino is a proper noun (a trademark in fact), and who saw fit to put an extra comma in "tilting rolling stock" (presumably as in stock that both tilts and rolls).

 

[WatcherZero]

Is this perhaps in response to the expectation that on December 6th they would have a decision on their West Coast application? Is this a case of plan F rejected straight into promoting plan H? They do seem to have a historical habit of taking every rejection of their plans as an invitation to be even more adventerous in their next proposal.

 

[Carlisle]

So for all the above reasons any many more we are basically saying proper competition can probably never really happen on any reasonable scale on the UK passanger railway beyond drawing board plans and ideas and studies ?

 

[The Planner]

Not when people come up with over the top ideas no, however they may have a secret hedge fund somewhere and will pay for all these upgrades themselves.

 

[Goatboy]

So for all the above reasons any many more we are basically saying proper competition can probably never really happen on any reasonable scale on the UK passanger railway

Correct. It's never going to be truely competitive. Imagine of Sainsburys couldnt open a store in the same town as Tesco becuase of 'revenue abstraction'...

The way the system is set up prevents proper competition because lets face it, imagine if they let Alliance in, they were great, good value and customers flocked to them and abandoned East Coast. Who would bid for the East Coast franchise then?

 

[gordonthemoron]

doesn't the BBC article feature a pic of an IEP rather than a Pendolino?

 

[Monty]

I can't help but think sometimes that these 'planned' services from wannabe open access operators are a bit of a con just to get people to invest money into something that has no hope of actually becoming a reality.

 

[IanXC]

So for all the above reasons any many more we are basically saying proper competition can probably never really happen on any reasonable scale on the UK passanger railway beyond drawing board plans and ideas and studies ?

Without going off topic too far the competition in the system occurs at franchise award.

 

[hwl]

I can't help but think sometimes that these 'planned' services from wannabe open access operators are a bit of a con just to get people to invest money into something that has no hope of actually becoming a reality.

If the investment is structured properly (getting more difficult especially after changes in the autumn statement) then it being loss making can be an advantage for high net worth individuals. Think setups similar to the film finance industry. Use of Capital allowances for paying for equipment such as rolling stock or TASS etc would make it a more interesting tax reduction strategy for high net worth individuals depending on their other investments.

I'd love to see the journey comparisons against IEP with a clear run and non stop - I suspect it wouldn't be that special.

 

[northwichcat]

Is this perhaps in response to the expectation that on December 6th they would have a decision on their West Coast application? Is this a case of plan F rejected straight into promoting plan H? They do seem to have a historical habit of taking every rejection of their plans as an invitation to be even more adventerous in their next proposal.

I think Alliance know that Leeds-Huddersfield-Euston can't go ahead due to 6tph on North TPE being an almost certainty now, while other WCML applications won't be considered until after the next WC franchise is awarded and the new franchisee has had the chance to submit revised track access applications based on their franchise bid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

doesn't the BBC article feature a pic of an IEP rather than a Pendolino?

I think it's an artist's mockup of a Polaris, which Alliance were proposing to use on all their services. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_(train)

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it's an artists mockup of a Polaris, which Alliance were proposing to use on all their services. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_(train)

No, that's definitely an IEP train. The wording "HITACHI" on the nose is one of the big give-aways. Alliance Rail have amended the exterior images of their proposed trains on their website from the previously illustrated CRSE Polaris.

 

[northwichcat]

No, that's definitely an IEP train. The wording "HITACHI" on the nose is one of the big give-aways. Alliance Rail have amended the exterior images of their proposed trains on their website from the previously illustrated CRSE Polaris.

Didn't notice that. It looks like the BBC have got that image of the Alliance website: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gner/ On a different section of that site there is a Photoshopped Pendolino saying Alstom on the front: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gnwr/

 

[Gathursty]

When is the East Coast franchise up for renewal? Could be more room for this in the timetable depending on the answer.

 

[sprinterguy]

When is the East Coast franchise up for renewal? Could be more room for this in the timetable depending on the answer.

The new franchise will be awarded in October 2014 to start in February 2015.

 

[kylemore]

This would completely destroy the East Coast re-franchising process and after the WCML fiasco they're not going to allow that!

Mind you as I understand it Alliance is majority owned by Arriva - in effect DB? So why don't Alliance just bid for the new East Coast franchise with new Pendies throughout or is the new operator forced to take the IEPs?

 

[Jonny]

As an aside, does anyone else think that an Open Access Operator using the name GNER is misleading, given that it is the name used by a previous East Coast franchise holder?

 

[northwichcat]

As an aside, does anyone else think that an Open Access Operator using the name GNER is misleading, given that it is the name used by a previous East Coast franchise holder?

Great Western Holdings got away with using 'North Western Trains' when Cowie Group had North Western Road Car Co registered as a company name and used the trading name of 'North Western' on many bus routes.

A North Western bus: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8471/8093230650_7e80ba6bb1_z.jpg

A North Western Trains vehicle: http://www.therailwaycentre.com/EMU photo file/322_FNW

 

[jimm]

Announcement of the plan is now on the Alliance website homepage, with a picture of a green Pendolino and they quote an Alstom manager. A press release saying much the same thing has gone out, though the briefing document has yet to appear.

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Great Western Holdings got away with using 'North Western Trains' when Cowie Group had North Western Road Car Co registered as a company name and used the trading name of 'North Western' on many bus routes.

A North Western bus: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8471/8093230650_7e80ba6bb1_z.jpg

A North Western Trains vehicle: http://www.therailwaycentre.com/EMU photo file/322_FNW

Hardly 'getting away with' - it wasn't being used by Cowie to operate a rail service, so no issue whatever.

In the case of Alliance using GNER, they bought the rights to use the name after the original GNER folded.

 

[northwichcat]

Hardly 'getting away with' - it wasn't being used by Cowie to operate a rail service, so no issue whatever.

Still a transport service. I imagine many people thought that their bus service was being run by the same company as their train service until they got rebranded as Arriva North West and First North Western.

 

[BantamMenace]

Just order of interest does anyone know how many fast paths out of and into London KX is possible each hour? Can a fast leave every say 6 minutes to create 10 fast tph going north?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just order of interest does anyone know how many fast paths out of and into London KX is possible each hour? Can a fast leave every say 6 minutes to create 10 fast tph going north?

The main constraint is pathing over Welwyn viaduct, not out of King's Cross.
So FCC and freight paths come into the reckoning as well.

 

[tbtc]

Mind you as I understand it Alliance is majority owned by Arriva - in effect DB?

That's the bit that I don't "get".

I could understand some ameteur operation coming up with a childish idea that "we want to be able to run megafast services on an already busy railway, which other trains will have to make way for (but we don't want the headaches of having to meet franchise commitments or take on TUPE'd staff)", but this is a branch of a large transport company, coming up with something ridiculously optimistic that has no chance of ever happening - why do Alliance bother with such ideas?

(they aren't even pretending to offer something with any real difference - e.g. planing a Cramlington - London service that just happens to stop at Newcastle and York)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Exactly tbtc its an ORCATs raid but not even bothering to hide it!

 

[gordonthemoron]

will they be as good at running trains as they are at using photoshop?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's the bit that I don't "get".

I could understand some ameteur operation coming up with a childish idea that "we want to be able to run megafast services on an already busy railway, which other trains will have to make way for (but we don't want the headaches of having to meet franchise commitments or take on TUPE'd staff)", but this is a branch of a large transport company, coming up with something ridiculously optimistic that has no chance of ever happening - why do Alliance bother with such ideas?

On top of which Arriva will be bidding for the ICEC franchise anyway.
They could end up competing with themselves.
It seems to be a spoiler for the franchise competition.
No doubt the same trains will show up on their West Coast plans.

The only surprising thing is that Alstom should put their name to it.
I suppose it takes away the debate as to which trains they plan to operate - Polaris was always nonsense.
A Pendolino has already got all the NR approvals it needs, and has capabilities in reserve if the route is upgraded.
It can also be switched to other routes if needed.
However it does not address the off-wires opportunities.

The press release is now on their web site, but the "new briefing document" is still awaited.