Adelantes for FGW (again?)

[MCR247]

I accept people have dismissed the idea of a shared pool, but a TPE/Hull Trains shared pool could actually work pretty well. My thought is that they could be diagrammed mainly on Scotland services for TPE, with some early morning/late evening 'positioning moves' between Manchester and Hull to allow for maintenance rotation.

Diagram 1:

0600 Hull - Manchester (cut short to Picc/Airport)
0900 Piccadilly - Glasgow 1228
1254 Glasgow - MIA 1647
1700 MIA - Glasgow 2033
0710 GLC - MIA 1047
1105 MIA - NCL 1406
1418 NCL - MIA 1712
ECS MIA - MAN
1742 MAN - HULL

Of course that seems quite simple, but you have to deal with all of the diagrams that are messed up because of this

 

[starrymarkb]

Theres a reason Salisbury has such good maintenance, as most of the stock based there is because half the fleet will be sat the for half of the day.

Its all right for some..

They need 27 of the 30 159s each day, sure some will be sat during the off peak though but not sure how much you could do in the 4ish hours before they head back to London for the evening peak
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I agree SWT Salisbury units aren't the heaviest utilised units but they could have just let them rot during down time rather than keep them maintained where possible. SWT are after all experts at penny pinching and ripping customers off. Salisbury depot is their one bright lights..compared to Salisbury station with its ill-informed,rude, slow and basically useless staff and management team.

One thing with SWT is that the depots specialise in one or two fleets. Desiros at Northam, Diesels at Salisbury and everything else at Wimbledon

 

[MCR247]

But which fleet is going to better condition, one that is intensely used, or one that sits around for half of the day....

 

[WestCoast]

But which fleet is going to better condition, one that is intensely used, or one that sits around for half of the day....

This is the 180s we are talking about, so perhaps the latter is the only option.

I still want TPE to get them, they are an obvious candidate. Failing that, FGW. I don't see why SWT should get them, I really don't.

I bet other operators wish they could do that with their 158s. Look at their sister TOC.

 

[150222]

Yes most 159's are used but the 158's on the other hand are not. They must be the most flexible fleet of 158's in the country.

 

[MCR247]

I wouldn't even go as far to say 'most'

 

[starrymarkb]

I wouldn't even go as far to say 'most'

27 out of 30 is most to me... 90% utilisation

 

[thefab444]

Yes most 159's are used but the 158's on the other hand are not. They must be the most flexible fleet of 158's in the country.

IIRC there are 10 diagrams for 11 units, although that does include the one on hire to FGW.

People assume that just because SWT have similar stock to EMT or Northern that the style of operations is the same. It isn't, just because there's spare stock when you pass Salisbury Depot on a weekend, that does not mean it isn't needed.

 

[150222]

They seem to have plenty to hire out! (fgw.emt and northern mostly) How many were transferred to scotrail?

 

[WestCoast]

People assume that just because SWT have similar stock to EMT or Northern that the style of operations is the same. It isn't, just because there's spare stock when you pass Salisbury Depot on a weekend, that does not mean it isn't needed.

SWT can't really be compared to the other operators due to the service pattern. I do sense a slight bitterness towards them. However, then again, when the stock situation is so uneven in this country, that is inevitable. The 158s are very versatile units as we all know, and have a variety of missions.

Before the (NT) 180s go to anyone, they will need an interior spruce-up. A few years on stoppers hasn't exactly done wonders for the interior trim in the first class coaches.

 

[starrymarkb]

They seem to have plenty to hire out! (fgw.emt and northern mostly) How many were transferred to scotrail?

when they were hiring the fleet out it was because they'd been acquired for future services that had yet to commence, with NR taking a while to do the Axminster Loop and Platform extensions for 10 car operation there was slack in the fleet. This has now been taken up

 

[TEW]

The 158s are also totally unsuitable trains for the Salisbury 6 services, and the Lymington branch.

 

[thefab444]

I will admit they aren't perfect for either service, especially not the Lymington shuttle, but neither were the 170s, and to be honest, I'd rather not see 150s or other early 2nd gen units on the Salisbury Loop services. The only solution that would be better than present is for the Salisbury area to be electrified.

SWT can't really be compared to the other operators due to the service pattern. I do sense a slight bitterness towards them. However, then again, when the stock situation is so uneven in this country, that is inevitable. The 158s are very versatile units as we all know, and have a variety of missions.

Indeed, but the solution to the Northern/EMT/FGW capacity problems is not to pilage SWT's fleet. They should find, fund or beg for their own stock, otherwise you're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The maximum number of units SWT have had on hire is two, one to either EMT or Northern, and one to FGW. The ones sent up north had, apparently, a tendency to come back trashed inside.

when they were hiring the fleet out it was because they'd been acquired for future services that had yet to commence, with NR taking a while to do the Axminster Loop and Platform extensions for 10 car operation there was slack in the fleet. This has now been taken up

There's also a small amount of capacity in the fleet for the proposed hourly Exeter - Honiton stopper, although I'm not sure what the status of the dynamic loop at Whimple is, so that may well have been put on hold.

 

[WestCoast]

I will admit they aren't perfect for either service, especially not the Lymington shuttle, but neither were the 170s, and to be honest, I'd rather not see 150s or other early 2nd gen units on the Salisbury Loop services. The only solution that would be better than present is for the Salisbury area to be electrified.

I reckon the whole Southern region should be electrified ASAP filling in all the gaps, to ensure cascades of all DMUs to FGW, EMT and Northern.

I'd rather not see 142s on two hour inter-urban runs, but that's skewed stock for you.

The maximum number of units SWT have had on hire is two, one to either EMT or Northern, and one to FGW. The ones sent up north had, apparently, a tendency to come back trashed inside.

Really? Northern's own 158s are usually very presentable, the very best DMU they have, certainly on the runs across the Pennines through the Calder Valley.

The worst vandalism happens in the London area - if 158s had to perform inner London workings, the picture wouldn't be as rosy. SWT do a good job with things like that anyway (they do have time to keep them neat!) and all SWT units on hire seemed presentable to me. Rarely see scratchitti and other trashed features on Northern units either. Certainly compared to a SE 465 with spray painted seat cushions!

Admittedly, the 180s on hire are a little scathed from intense use, they aren't trashed though!

 

[jopsuk]

I'd suggest "persuading" GC to take more 180s to replace HSTs (I know this would upset people, but hey, they can be upset) and transfer the HSTs (with additional modified carriages) to the EC, XC or GW fleets (with interiors to match whichever home they end up in)

 

[talltim]

As I see it, whoever ends up with the 180s loses.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, although the three car units were replaced by the 185s, it's only really the 11 two car 158s for 8 two car 170s where TPE lost out.

A 185 has less capacity than a 3 car 158 though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The ones sent up north had, apparently, a tendency to come back trashed inside.

There was an issue with a SWT 158 on loan to Northern getting vandalised when it was left at Scarborough overnight. However, the 158s that SWT loaned to EMT were stabled at Nottingham overnight and used just as much in the East Midlands and Anglia as much as the North so if they didn't come back in the same state you can't really blame 'the North' for trashing units.

I seem to remember the ex-CT 158s that Northern leased but got subleased to FGW before they arrived at Northern arrived trashed internally.

 

[WestCoast]

Central Trains units were just trashed anyway, without any intervention from vandals!

 

[thefab444]

Nearly all of FGW's fleet around that time was pretty trashed!

A 185 has less capacity than a 3 car 158 though.

That's true, but at the time of the swap weren't there still hopes of TPE getting additional coaches for at least some of their 185s?

There was an issue with a SWT 158 on loan to Northern getting vandalised when it was left at Scarborough overnight. However, the 158s that SWT loaned to EMT were stabled at Nottingham overnight and used just as much in the East Midlands and Anglia as much as the North so if they didn't come back in the same state you can't really blame 'the North' for trashing units.

The East Midlands constitutes 'the North' to me, I was referring to the periods of hire with both EMT and NT.

 

[WestCoast]

The East Midlands constitutes 'the North' to me, I was referring to the periods of hire with both EMT and NT.

I wouldn't even go there if I was you. If this is a contest about which area of the country trashes its trains the most, then the Greater London area would win every time. However, it shouldn't be. SWT seem to do a great job monitoring and rectifying things like that, but that doesn't mean their trains don't suffer wear and tear.

Both times where the units would probably have seen more "intensive" use. EMT's chronic overcrowding on 2-car Liverpool to Norwich services being an example. Interior upkeep is going to suffer.

 

[graham43404]

I'd suggest "persuading" GC to take more 180s to replace HSTs (I know this would upset people, but hey, they can be upset) and transfer the HSTs (with additional modified carriages) to the EC, XC or GW fleets (with interiors to match whichever home they end up in)

I am sure I have read somewhere that GC are looking at replacing their HST's and East Coast would then be interested in getting the GC HST's rather having the class 180's.

Considering the problems over the last month Hull Trains have had with there 180's and the overall history of the units you can't blame East Coast can you?

 

[northwichcat]

The East Midlands constitutes 'the North' to me, I was referring to the periods of hire with both EMT and NT.

What about Peterborough and Norwich, which Liverpool-Norwich also serves are they in the 'North' in your view?

 

[thefab444]

What about Peterborough and Norwich, which Liverpool-Norwich also serves are they in the 'North' in your view?

Geographically speaking yes, socially speaking probably not. The point I was making that if EMT/Northern can't return the units in a similar condition to when they were sent up, why should loaning take place? North was the geographical direction in which they were loaned.

P.S. Fair enough point about London, West Coast, but I guess I could claim that to me London is in 'the North' as well.

 

[WestCoast]

Geographically speaking yes, socially speaking probably not. The point I was making that if EMT/Northern can't return the units in a similar condition to when they were sent up, why should loaning take place? North was the geographical direction in which they were loaned.

P.S. Fair enough point about London, West Coast, but I guess I could claim that to me London is in 'the North' as well.

So basically what you are really saying is that SWT shouldn't send units up to the "poor north" because the savages will ruin them. That could be construed as quite offensive. Money doesn't make people well mannered, sensible, intelligent or friendly. The fact is vandalism doesn't seem to be a huge problem on the Northern/EMT units, they always seem to be very presentable when I use them.

Even if it does, there are places within the "poor north" that are just as wealthy, or even wealthier than Wiltshire and the surrounding areas.

This has nothing to do with the Adelantes, so lets get back on topic. Enough of this silly debate.:roll:

 

[Blindtraveler]

as a different slant, stil slightly OT but when scotrail sent 150s to ATW they were not in great shape internally and although they were transfered rather than hired they had still to be refurbed by ATW

 

[starrymarkb]

To me anything North of Bristol is the North! But then I live as far south as it is possible to get on this island

 

[thefab444]

So basically what you are really saying is that SWT shouldn't send units up to the "poor north" because the savages will ruin them.

No, the point I'm making is that when they do get ruined, Northern/EMT should put them back together. It's like borrowing a book, scribbling on all the pages, and returning it - then expecting the owner to not only rub out all the scribbling, but let you borrow the book again!

As for the point about Norwich/Peterborough was that the culture there is different to that in the industrial north i.e. Yorkshire, or that of the far north i.e. Cumbria, but like I said, to me they are all in the geographical north.

That could be construed as quite offensive.

Only if you construe my point as being the units were trashed because they were sent up north. My point actually was the units were trashed when they were sent up north, and this damage was apparently not repaired. You've read too much into what I was saying and brought in a load of stuff about economical factors having relevance to whether trains get trashed or not.

 

[Class172]

To me anything North of Bristol is the North! But then I live as far south as it is possible to get on this island

To me north is north of the A50 (Stoke-Derby) and south is south of Gloucester/Banbury. I'm in the Midlands though I was born in Wiltshire (south).

Anyway, back on topic. If FGW don't get the 180s in the end for some reason then I would give them to FTPE get rid of their 170s (if numbers work out).

 

[WestCoast]

No, the point I'm making is that when they do get ruined, Northern/EMT should put them back together. It's like borrowing a book, scribbling on all the pages, and returning it - then expecting the owner to not only rub out all the scribbling, but let you borrow the book again!

I can understand that, I am just wondering what you mean by "trashed". Would there not be something in the contract of the loan about this? For example, return as sent?!

Only if you construe my point as being the units were trashed because they were sent up north. My point actually was the units were trashed when they were sent up north, and this damage was apparently not repaired.

Right, that makes it clearer. The stuff about economical factors and vandalism is an interesting one, however, I take your point it's not right for this thread. However, I find it odd since Northern/EMTs own 158s seem to be in a good condition. So, it's more of a problem with the relevant TOCs, not fixing the damage.

Could it be more of a case of "not our unit, lets not bother"? EMT and SWT are sister companies anyway!

 

[northwichcat]

Anyway, back on topic. If FGW don't get the 180s in the end for some reason then I would give them to FTPE get rid of their 170s (if numbers work out).

That wouldn't work. The 170s are diagrammed to be used in 2 car formation due to a shortage of carriages for North and South TPE since having to move extra 185s over to the Scottish route. There should really be 4 lots of 4 car 170 diagrams, as there used to be but TPE are really short of carriages. Giving TPE the 180s as extra units will really put TPE back where they were before being given the Scottish services - replacing 9x170s with 5x180s will mean services will have to be removed from the timetable.

Even if TPE had 51x185s, 9x170s and 5x180s they will still be short of carriages until at least when Man Airport-Blackpool goes over to EMUs and even then they may still be short if passenger numbers continue to grow at the same level.