Absurd argument trying to buy a ticket!

[ANorthernGuard]

To be fair on a small minority of Northern services I've been on in the South Yorkshire area the guard didn't check tickets, or just walked through without stopping calling for any fares. On the other hand I've been on a Huddersfield-Sheffield service and the guard was constantly walking up and down the train. I do think Northern suffer from having a number of guards who perhaps don't go around doing tickets as much as they should.

With respect we have a ride out every 6 months with a CTM who not only checks are rules knowledge etc. but also goes through revenue, amount of tickets sold etc. anyone who does go a lot below the average will get spoken to. For a few different reasons (not to be gotten into in here) I tend to be below average most times but for me I have reasons the people who do not will get a target to aim for (with a hint from a line manager that they need to get out more) (Revenue/Customer service duties not a life lol) again I must remind people that our first duty is SAFETY THEN performance and THEN Revenue.

 

[Wath Yard]

I do think Northern suffer from having a number of guards who perhaps don't go around doing tickets as much as they should.

You're absolutely correct. There is a very definite East/West split on Northern when it comes to guards and revenue protection. I won't state which side of the Pennines they bother doing it and which one they don't because it will probably cause an argument and it isn't a case that one side always does and one never does, but there is a very obvious difference in attitude towards checking and selling tickets.
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Perhaps the clerk was trying to find evidence that you had failed to buy at the first opportunity and should therefore be sold an anytime ticket? I had such an experience with SWT once which resulted in me missing a connection.

But surely that would be both extremely petty and pointless. As the OP stated, if he hadn't any intention of buying a ticket he would have just walked out of the station. He wasn't caught without a ticket at a ticket check, he went to the ticket office to buy one.

 

[bb21]

As I said, you have to have a ticket TO Sheffield to get a plusbus and I asked him to confirm that when he first questioned me. He said "yes" as in you do have to have an inward ticket to Sheffield to get a plusbus and the conversation continued not believing me the guard hadn't been round!!

Duff information I am afraid. You can buy Plusbus for both the origin station and the destination station of your journey if you wish.

Next time if you are refused sale for your origin station, show them the answer to Question 2 on this page.

As already mentioned, Sheffield ticket office appears to have a particular issue with giving incorrect information, which is pretty bad even by EMT standards, considering how many EMT ticket offices offer excellent service.

Or simply bought a return to Chinley with a Sheffield Plusbus, which presumably is the same price. Less confusion and no fare dodging

Technically not valid, although probably not detectable in most cases.

What is the price of a tram ticket to the ground, out of interest

Screaming out £2.20 at the back of my head but I don't know why. It is definitely more than £2.

The days of a first generation DMU with a guard sat visibly in an open van at the centre of the train are long gone

Unless you are on a 444 or 450.

Also I believe Southern require guards to be visible at all times.

 

[TUC]

Would it of been a possiblity of giving the Guard a knock on the cab door?

This keeps being on said on such threads. Do you really think that even more honest passengers would think to go knocking on doors? They would genuinely want to pay but not think they have to go on a trawl down the train. Why would anyone think that? Beside which it takes a certain amount of confidence to knock on a stranger's door which shy people may not feel able to do. It seems to place all the responsibility and inconveinience on the passenger and zero on the staff.

 

[Greenback]

Chapeltom didn't already have a rail ticke tthough. As you can't buy Plusbus in Sheffield unless you have a valid ticket, or have arrived form an unstaffed station without the opportunity to buy a ticket, I think that may be the udnerlying cause of the confusion.

The clerk might well have thought that someone who was not entitled to buy a Plusbus ticket was trying to do so - I think Chapltom's use of the phrase 'I need to buy a ticket to get Plusbus' may have contributed to this!

Of course, the idea that someone would buy a ticket from Chinley unnecessarily in order to save a couple of pounds on tram travel is ludicrous, but this is Sheffield and the clerk may have thought they he was going out to Chinley later.
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This keeps being on said on such threads. Do you really think that even more honest passengers would think to go knocking on doors? They would genuinely want to pay but not think they have to go on a trawl down the train. Why would anyone think that? Beside which it takes a certain amount of confidence to knock on a stranger's door which shy people may not feel able to do. It seems to place all the responsibility and inconveinience on the passenger and zero on the staff.

There is no requirement to do so, and, in fact, I have seen two occasions where the guard has not been at all pleased when someone has knocked on the door. On one of those occasions, the passenger did indeed want to buy a ticket!

 

[Anon Mouse]

This keeps being on said on such threads. Do you really think that even more honest passengers would think to go knocking on doors? They would genuinely want to pay but not think they have to go on a trawl down the train. Why would anyone think that? Beside which it takes a certain amount of confidence to knock on a stranger's door which shy people may not feel able to do. It seems to place all the responsibility and inconveinience on the passenger and zero on the staff.

Why not? I've had passengers knocking on my cab door and I've happily sold them a ticket. Someone mentioned a que of people knocking on the back cab....do you really think that would happen? Guards will always be happy to sell somebody a ticket, there might have been a perfectly good reason why the Guard was unable to come down the train. If the OP had of gave the Guard a knock he might have saved himself the argument. I cannot understand why a suggestion of a solution causes so much derision.

At theend of the day it was a SUGGESTION and at the end of the day as said before there was probably a perfectly valid reason why the Guard did not go down the train, our responsibilities go much further than selling tickets. In addition it is actually the passengers responsibility to ensure they have a valid ticket, the OP did this and hence he went to the Ticket Office at Sheffield and should have been sold the ticket he asked for without an argument.

A passenger walking down a 12 coach Southern service looking for the Guard probably is a big inconvinience, but walking by most 2 coach lengths on a 142, is that really a huge inconvinence.

Also, I have never said that passengers MUST look for the Guard to buy a ticket, but only that in this sort of scenario it is a POSSIBLE scenario. Also you said "It seems to place all the responsibility and inconveinience on the passenger and zero on the staff" by saying this, are you saying its acceptable for a passenger to get on a train, not see the Guard, get off the train & leave the station without buying a ticket? Its the same principle as going into a shop, picking up a bottle of milk and walking out as the assistant never saw you.
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There is no requirement to do so, and, in fact, I have seen two occasions where the guard has not been at all pleased when someone has knocked on the door. On one of those occasions, the passenger did indeed want to buy a ticket!

I never said there was a requirement to do so, but as said before its a possible solution. I also cannot see why the Guard would be displeased. If there is an emergency onboard I would much rather somebody knocked on the door to tell me what was going on rather than finding BTP/Paramedics at the next stop!

 

[Greenback]

I never said there was a requirement to do so, but as said before its a possible solution. I also cannot see why the Guard would be displeased. If there is an emergency onboard I would much rather somebody knocked on the door to tell me what was going on rather than finding BTP/Paramedics at the next stop!

I know you never said that, my reply was to TUC who referred to all of the responsibility beign placed ont he passenger. There is no responsibility, as it is not required!

As to the why the guards were not happy, I don't know, but my hunch is that when the passenger wanted to buy a ticket, the guard felt that it was up to them to walk down the train and sell tickets, not up to the passengers to disturb them when they may have been doing something else.

The second occasion was a youngster who wanted to know train times. Presumably it was another case of don't disturb me, I will be out shortly. Although that occasion was on a Pacer, so perhaps they wer emore annoyed at that!

I would hope that both would prefer to be informed of an emergency. By the responses given at the time, I assume it was more a case of the reasons didn't necessitate knocking on the cab door.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I know you never said that, my reply was to TUC who referred to all of the responsibility beign placed ont he passenger. There is no responsibility, as it is not required!

As to the why the guards were not happy, I don't know, but my hunch is that when the passenger wanted to buy a ticket, the guard felt that it was up to them to walk down the train and sell tickets, not up to the passengers to disturb them when they may have been doing something else.

The second occasion was a youngster who wanted to know train times. Presumably it was another case of don't disturb me, I will be out shortly. Although that occasion was on a Pacer, so perhaps they wer emore annoyed at that!

I would hope that both would prefer to be informed of an emergency. By the responses given at the time, I assume it was more a case of the reasons didn't necessitate knocking on the cab door.

Cheers.

Thats pretty bad that on them to occasions that the Guard had that attituite, thats terrible! Yes we may be busy doing something else, but we still should be avalible for passengers questions. The only times I've ignored knocks on the doors is when an angry and aggresive passenger has been baying for blood and kicking and punching the cab door, then for my own safety I would not answer! A young lad asking for train times or a concerned passenger wanting to buy a ticket knocking on the door and I will be more than pleased to help!

 

[Greenback]

Cheers.

Thats pretty bad that on them to occasions that the Guard had that attituite, thats terrible! Yes we may be busy doing something else, but we still should be avalible for passengers questions. The only times I've ignored knocks on the doors is when an angry and aggresive passenger has been baying for blood and kicking and punching the cab door, then for my own safety I would not answer! A young lad asking for train times or a concerned passenger wanting to buy a ticket knocking on the door and I will be more than pleased to help!

That's to your credit, sadly not everyone appears to feel the same!

The two incidents I have witnessed have been over six years of commuting, so not bad considering the number of journeys I must have made standing in the vestibule in front of the rear cab!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Someone mentioned a que of people knocking on the back cab....do you really think that would happen?

If you are suggesting that passengers should knock on the back cab to find the guard if they need to a buy a ticket, then yes I think it could happen.
Remember on some routes, most of the stations are unmanned without any ticket machines.

 

[455driver]

I went into my local shop today, picked up a few things but because there wasnt anyone on the checkout I just walked straight out of the store with the items in hand, I dont think there is a requirement for me to go looking around the store for somebody to serve me is there?

Pretty much the same thing as looking for the guard in my book so I assume I am not guilty of anything because it is their job to be there when I want.


I didnt really but you get my drift.

 

[Greenback]

Not really the same thing, as in most shops the customer walks around picking up what they want, and then takes it to a pre assigned spot to pay.

On trains, the accepted norm, particularly when travelling from an unstaffed station, is to take a seat and wait for the guard to come to you and issue your ticket.

Of course, it would be different if shops only had one member of staff to take payment using a hand held machine with a tendency to malfunction!

 

[Flamingo]

Although walking out with the goods would still count as theft...

 

[maniacmartin]

But if you couldn't find someone to pay, you could leave the goods. On a train its too late as you've already made the journey

 

[Flamingo]

But if you couldn't find someone to pay, you could leave the goods. On a train its too late as you've already made the journey

Then it should be paid for.

 

[Wath Yard]

The journey was paid for, at the first possible opportunity, but only after he underwent a grilling from the person who sold him the ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

The journey was paid for, at the first possible opportunity, but only after he underwent a grilling from the person who sold it him.

I know that in this case (I have read the thread).

 

[sheff1]

So the guard should know that the ticket machine at <a station> is accepting card only, no cash, or the ticket machine at <another station> has just been vandalised do they, the passengers couldnt be bothered/ got there too late to buy from the ticket machine etc?

I take it you are another one that doesnt actually know what you are talking about?:roll:

Have you ever travelled on the Hope Valley line ?

What is the price of a tram ticket to the ground, out of interest

£2.20 single, £3.90 return.

 

[Goatboy]

I went into my local shop today, picked up a few things but because there wasnt anyone on the checkout I just walked straight out of the store with the items in hand, I dont think there is a requirement for me to go looking around the store for somebody to serve me is there?

Please, give us more analogies where you use theft of physical items to relate to non-payment of a service. They are so thrillingly relevent.

Pretty much the same thing as looking for the guard in my book

Except of course it's nothing like the same thing, as you well know. You don't go hunting for a shop assistant in Tesco anyway - you walk to the advertised and dedicated checkout. Who knows where the guard is? Perhaps he's in the back cab. Perhaps he's in the front (Your average passenger has no idea what the rulebook says so wont know thats not allowed). Perhaps he's in the loo? Perhaps... why not just take a seat and wait for him to come round?

 

[sheff1]

Clerk: "You've just come from Chinley?"
Me: "Yes"
Clerk: "I don't believe that the guard hasn't come round on such a long journey"

EMT training will be proud. 'Accuse the passenger of lying at the first available opportunity'.

 

[mirodo]

£2.20 single, £3.90 return.

£3.90 is actually the price of a Day Rider, which gives unlimited use on the tram for the day.

Is the PlusBus supplement any cheaper?

 

[lemonic]

£3.90 is actually the price of a Day Rider, which gives unlimited use on the tram for the day.

Is the PlusBus supplement any cheaper?

PlusBus for Sheffield is £3.70 but only £2.45 if you have a railcard.

 

[AlexS]

The guard already knows perfectly well that he or she isn't selling tickets and that stations at which passengers have boarded do not have ticket issuing facilities. It should not take a knock on the door to make the guard aware of that.

A PA announcement would certainly be helpful, but (as guards in this forum remind us) it's not the passenger's place to pass judgment and offer advice on how or how well a guard is peforming the job.

If the guard cannot sell tickets, for example due to a broken machine, or has chosen not to sell tickets, for example due to other duties (such as safety) which as we all know take priority over revenue, then surely the last thing he or she will welcome is the intrusion of passengers.

And the big heavy opaque locked security door with red warning notices, and no means of attracting attention other than knocking against the acoustic chaos of a train at speed, at the far end of a long and possibly crowded unit, behind which the invisible guard may or may not actually be (especially in the case of multiple ungangwayed units), is not exactly the most customer welcoming process one can think of. The days of a first generation DMU with a guard sat visibly in an open van at the centre of the train are long gone, and it's silly to pretend that guards are still just as available to customers as they used to be. And it is *horribly* open to misinterpretation if you're going towards the rear of the train to find the guard, if in fact the guard is at the front, working towards the rear, but you haven't seen him or her. If anything looks like fare evasion, that does.

These days, "finding the guard" is a ludicrously impractical piece of advice, no matter how many times people here (including, occasionally, a minority of guards) repeat it.

A PA announcement to explain that you're not doing tickets should be mandatory. Time and time again passengers seem to tell TOCs that they want better communication from them regarding issues, and that staff availability is also a problem. If you're sat in the back cab and you are not selling tickets then you should tell the passengers that, it doesn't take more than 30 seconds to say so and offer a quick apology. Obviously there may be occasions when this is not appropriate, for example, abusive passengers, but it is a common courtesy. Nothing is more annoying than when you get a guard on a train who dips in and out of the cab to do the doors and disappears without a trace, no announcements, no walking through the train etc.

Even if you can't sell tickets because your Avantix is shagged it doesn't hurt to have the odd walk up and down the train in case anyone has any questions to ask.

It's not the passenger judging how well the guard is doing their job, it's the guard keeping their passengers informed.

While the safety element is obviously the most important one, some members of railway staff really could do with remembering they work in a customer service industry.

 

[Flamingo]

How about a PA announcement from the guard saying they are in coach X, and any passengers who need tickets can come and buy them there?

Or what would be wrong with that?

 

[bb21]

How about a PA announcement from the guard saying they are in coach X, and any passengers who need tickets can come and buy them there?

Or what would be wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that. I have heard quite a few SWT guards (both commercial and non-commercial) make similar announcements.

 

[Flamingo]

So that would count as an opportunity to buy, if boarding from an unmanned etc station?

 

[Goatboy]

So that would count as an opportunity to buy, if boarding from an unmanned etc station?

Common sense would dictate it would. It's a specific instruction to come and purchase a ticket.

 

[Oswyntail]

How about a PA announcement from the guard saying they are in coach X, and any passengers who need tickets can come and buy them there?

Or what would be wrong with that?

That would do (always assuming the guard can handle the throng). What does guard training actually say should be done?

 

[RJ]

Would it of been a possiblity of giving the Guard a knock on the cab door?

I did that on a CrossCountry service between Nuneaton and Leicester once. The guard opened the door and all his change was sprawled out on the seat - I had disturbed him whilst he was cashing up. He said it was fine and that I could travel for free. Very nice of him, but I actually needed the ticket doing

I then went to the ticket office at Leicester and spent the best part of 30 minutes trying to get the SDS from Nuneaton to Hinckley I had purchased excessed to a Priv SOR from Rugby to my destination. The clerk decided to ring Nuneaton to check if it was actually shut, then queried why I didn't buy a ticket on board, then asked why I was trying to buy a ticket from Rugby when I had come from Nuneaton and countless other irrelevant questions.

After all that time, I left in frustration as I was about to miss the train I had a 25 minute connection for. I ended up missing it as well.

I hate it when ticket office clerks try and play detective and don't just do what's asked of them. I've sat alongside clerks who ask too many questions and watched customers virtually explode with frustration. Sometimes it's clear that a customer knows exactly what they want - a good clerk will recognise this and act as appropriate. It's even worse when they do this when they know next to nothing about tickets and the procedures.
However, this is the way things are and it's best to find a way to deal with it. My way of dealing with it is to make use of Southern's ticket machines and online retailing websites as much as possible!

It's a small wonder consultants are able to wade in and propose culls on front line staff numbers, when the industry perperuates a culture of mediocrity and p*ss poor training / appraisal schemes.

 

[Flamingo]

That would do (always assuming the guard can handle the throng). What does guard training actually say should be done?

No mention of it.

On the occasions I've done it, I would hardly describe the desultory few that trickled up as a throng, though.