A Sensible plan for rolling stock

[90019]

This is probably correct and explains why people trespassing on the railways, who have received 25KV shocks have lived to tell the tale. People who have got a shock from a third rail, have usually been electocuted. Despite the voltage being lower at about 750VDC, the current will be much higher and as it's DC is more lethal. The OLE on the former 1500VDC Woodhead route was a lot more substantial than a modern 25KV installation, probably due to the fact that it carried higher current.

Exactly, It's only 3A that is needed to kill someone, so, i would guess that OHLE is slightly under this, however, the actual power is probably the same from 25kV AC OHLE and 750V DC 3rd rail, but the current will be massively different, well over the 3A needed to be fatal. I'd be very surprised if it wasnt.

 

[ed1971]

Exactly, It's only 3A that is needed to kill someone, so, i would guess that OHLE is slightly under this, however, the actual power is probably the same from 25kV AC OHLE and 750V DC 3rd rail, but the current will be massively different, well over the 3A needed to be fatal. I'd be very surprised if it wasnt.

I remember being told when I was at college that it only takes a sustained 0.1A to stop someone's heart from beating.

 

[90019]

I remember being told when I was at college that it only takes a sustained 0.1A to stop someone's heart from beating.

It think that may be right, but with a quick electric shock, I'm sure it's 3A that would kill someone, but that could be wrong.

 

[ed1971]

It think that may be right, but with a quick electric shock, I'm sure it's 3A that would kill someone, but that could be wrong.

You are probably right. I have been told that AC is not as dangerous as DC because if you touch a live DC conductor, you cannot let go.

 

[bluenoxid]

DC also has a reputation for clamping you to it, whilst AC throws you away.

 

[ed1971]

DC also has a reputation for clamping you to it, whilst AC throws you away.

Yes, that is what I meant.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Nevertheless - best not going near them!

There is a thread in another topic area discussing electrifying routes in the north west with a 3rd rail, the chances of this happenng being highly unlikely.

If they were to do that though, I think a massive awareness scheme would have to be put in place, particuarly in schools, warning people who normally be uaware of the dangers of the 3rd rail. With the exception of the Merseyside area you dont get them = unawareness.

 

[90019]

There is a thread in another topic area discussing electrifying routes in the north west with a 3rd rail, the chances of this happenng being highly unlikely.

Actually, I think thy're non existant. I dont think they're allowed to build any new 3rd rail, except for extending 3rd rail that's already there.

 

[tbtc]

Actually, I think thy're non existant. I dont think they're allowed to build any new 3rd rail, except for extending 3rd rail that's already there.

I think Merseyrail have said that any potential extension to Wrexham would have to be overhead, rather than third rail.

Best to keep to one type of electrification in areas, where possible, to make rolling stock etc easier.

 

[WillPS]

Out of interest, how would a trespasser on an overhead electrified railway reveive a shock... surely it's just the same as stepping on tram tracks in that you don't receive a shock because you don't 'complete the circuit'?

 

[TEW]

The electric current from the overhead wires can jump, obviously not all the way from overhead but if you got closer to it then there is a risk.

 

[Zamracene749]

They would recieve a shock if they came close to or touched the overhead wires (as you would on a tramway).
The rails however are the neutral or return path-these are not insulated and are at roughly 0v relative to the ground-if they weren't we would get electrocuted every time we stepped on or off a train!

Trespassers that have been shocked have usually been climbing about on the train roof.......

Out of interest, how would a trespasser on an overhead electrified railway reveive a shock... surely it's just the same as stepping on tram tracks in that you don't receive a shock because you don't 'complete the circuit'?

 

[ed1971]

I think Merseyrail have said that any potential extension to Wrexham would have to be overhead, rather than third rail.

Best to keep to one type of electrification in areas, where possible, to make rolling stock etc easier.

That problem can be overcome by using EMUs that can either work from overhead AC or 3rd rail DC. They have them in the Southern areas.

 

[Bush]

142's are far from life expired. All I would like to see from the 142 fleet are some reliability mods, i.e heater fans fitted underneath alternating seats in the saloon to give more effective heating. Currently they are heated by the engine coolant being pumped into the roof pod where there are two fans that draw air in from the saloon, blown over the pipework and through the roof ducting into the saloon. The heating can be tripped out from the cabs so they shouldnt be hot in the summer. Fitting 2+2 Richmond seating like the 144's should improve the ambience. An air dryer fitted onto the compressor air intake pipe and wired in sync with the compressor and Spirax valves on the air tanks would make them a lot more reliable. That would give them another good 15 years service.

We should be building trains to supplement the existing fleets in the uk, not replacing them, when we build new trains we never seem to build enough to properly double the length of trains.

 

[Waverley125]

the HSTs would stay since they have a)just been refurbished inside, and b)mpstly had new engines put in. So there's very little of the original 30 y.o. train left, and that was the first HSTs for the Western Region-ECML, MML & XC didn't get HSTs till the 80s. HSTs are so good that passengers I was talking to yesterday coming back from London didn't realise how old the train was, because it looks quite new.

As for the Exeter service, either use HSTs or extend the 3rd rail from Basingstoke down to Exeter st Davids, and use either 442s or Junipers.

 

[metrocammel]

On the topic of double deck buses, I once went on the Colchester Open Top bus tour, and I have to admit feeling a little bit nervous on the top deck of the Atlantean as it went underneath the wires at East Gate LC!

 

[clagmonster]

I can't see Worting Jn-Exeter ever being electrified with 3rd rail. I envisage that when it is eventually done, it will OHLE, with dual voltage units working services. I can't see this happening for a long time though.
I also think that HSTs are unlikely, as they would need to be formed entirely of vehicles with SSL bogied, and also have far greater capacity than is needed at most times. Their 125mph capability would also be wasted.

 

[ed1971]

142's are far from life expired. All I would like to see from the 142 fleet are some reliability mods, i.e heater fans fitted underneath alternating seats in the saloon to give more effective heating. Currently they are heated by the engine coolant being pumped into the roof pod where there are two fans that draw air in from the saloon, blown over the pipework and through the roof ducting into the saloon. The heating can be tripped out from the cabs so they shouldnt be hot in the summer. Fitting 2+2 Richmond seating like the 144's should improve the ambience. An air dryer fitted onto the compressor air intake pipe and wired in sync with the compressor and Spirax valves on the air tanks would make them a lot more reliable. That would give them another good 15 years service.

We should be building trains to supplement the existing fleets in the uk, not replacing them, when we build new trains we never seem to build enough to properly double the length of trains.

Hi,

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the ex Northern Spirit refurbished 142s don't have the original heating systems and that the pods on the roof are now dummies. Both these and the Merseytravel ones have heating pipes running alongside the seats. In fact, the latter are often boiling hot in summer as there seems to be a fault that prevents the heating from being switched off!

I do agree that new trains should be built to supplement existing ones rather than replacing anything at present, to prevent overcrowding, especially in the Northern areas.

With regards to Richmond seating, I feel that these are too tall and have ruined the ambiance and visibility on the 144s and ex Northern Spirit 156s, especially the former, which now have claustrophobic interiors at the cost of a seat per row. I find that the 2+2 seating on the ex Northern Spirit 142s are just about the right height to be comfortable, yet not unduly obstructing visibility. In fact, if the arm rest was eliminated then it would be possible to have 2+3 seating of this type, which would probably be the better option for fitting to the ex Merseyrail ones.

 

[bluenoxid]

the HSTs would stay since they have a)just been refurbished inside, and b)mpstly had new engines put in. So there's very little of the original 30 y.o. train left, and that was the first HSTs for the Western Region-ECML, MML & XC didn't get HSTs till the 80s. HSTs are so good that passengers I was talking to yesterday coming back from London didn't realise how old the train was, because it looks quite new.

As for the Exeter service, either use HSTs or extend the 3rd rail from Basingstoke down to Exeter st Davids, and use either 442s or Junipers.

They haven't changed the bodywork and that is usually what goes. You also have to realise that you plans require the replacement of over 300 trains. By the time these arrive, your HST's will have interiors falling apart and MTU's will be approaching their first overhaul. The bodywork will continue to slip.