A Sensible plan for rolling stock

[Waverley125]

I think it's ovious to everyone that the Pacers are life-expired, and that the 150/3/6s soon will be. They are the nadir of rolling stock that give the railways a bad name, and need replacing.

When we look around the country, we fid these trains are concentrated in 3 main areas-Bristol & the south west, South Wales and Leeds. We need a vision to take this stock out of the system-something that Labour should have done when they first came to office.

1)IEP-make it electric only and wire Paddington-Bristol and Bedford-Wakefield. 10 coaches, it will cascade 222s andHSTs of the MML & GWML

2)Build more Pendos for the WCML, allowing 221s to be cascaded off services that are entirely under wires.

3)Wire Liverpool-Scbro/Mbro/Hull and build new EMUs for TPE services. These need to be 6-8 cars, with full first class & restaurant facilities.

4)Wire Doncaster-Selby, with 225s serving Hull.

the Results:

-222s (7 car) & HSTs cascaded onto XC & Exeter-Waterloo
-222s (4/5 car) & 221s onto Leeds-Glasgow via S&C, Cardiff-Holyhead, Birmingham-Cardiff, Cardiff-Swansea, Norwich-Liverpool, Stansted-Birmingham & Bristol-Penzance
-185s onto Caldervale Line (Leeds-Victoria & York-Blackpool North)
-170s onto Birmingham, Leeds & Cardiff local services
-158s/59s onto SW local services e.g. Exeter-Exmouth, Penzance-Plymouth etc.

-142s, 143s, 150s, 156s, all sent for scrap.

 

[GNERman]

What of the 155's?
Possibly wire Northallerton-Sunderland and Newcastle for GC?

 

[sven945]

Possibly wire Northallerton-Sunderland and Newcastle for GC?

Surely a complete waste of time and money for what is little more than a handful of services a day?

 

[PhilipW]

A lot of common sense in Waverley's proposal.

 

[90019]

What about all the Scotrail 156s?
They make up 42% of the total 156 fleet.

 

[Waverley125]

Scotrail will be wiring Edinburgh-Queen Street and Aidrie-Bathgate freeing up 170s & 158s. There are also plans for wires on the Shotts, and to Kilmarnock. From the north of england there will be a large number of 158s-almost certainly enough to go round.

 

[90019]

What about the West Highland Line though?
I'm sure i read somewhere about 158s being used on that line but it not being viable for some reason, and not just because of the RETB system.

The introduction of the 380s will add extra capacity and free up some 158s and 170s that will be cascaded to the Edinburgh-Glasgow services via the Airdrie-Bathgate line. The 320s working this route will then be cascaded to the Cathcart Circle lines, replacing the 314s which are, at 30 years old, the oldst MUs in the ScotRail fleet. So, if any trains are going to be scrapped, it will be the 314s, not the 156s.

 

[devon_metro]

I think it's ovious to everyone that the Pacers are life-expired, and that the 150/3/6s soon will be. They are the nadir of rolling stock that give the railways a bad name, and need replacing.

When we look around the country, we fid these trains are concentrated in 3 main areas-Bristol & the south west, South Wales and Leeds. We need a vision to take this stock out of the system-something that Labour should have done when they first came to office.

1)IEP-make it electric only and wire Paddington-Bristol and Bedford-Wakefield. 10 coaches, it will cascade 222s andHSTs of the MML & GWML

2)Build more Pendos for the WCML, allowing 221s to be cascaded off services that are entirely under wires.

3)Wire Liverpool-Scbro/Mbro/Hull and build new EMUs for TPE services. These need to be 6-8 cars, with full first class & restaurant facilities.

4)Wire Doncaster-Selby, with 225s serving Hull.

the Results:

-222s (7 car) & HSTs cascaded onto XC & Exeter-Waterloo
-222s (4/5 car) & 221s onto Leeds-Glasgow via S&C, Cardiff-Holyhead, Birmingham-Cardiff, Cardiff-Swansea, Norwich-Liverpool, Stansted-Birmingham & Bristol-Penzance
-185s onto Caldervale Line (Leeds-Victoria & York-Blackpool North)
-170s onto Birmingham, Leeds & Cardiff local services
-158s/59s onto SW local services e.g. Exeter-Exmouth, Penzance-Plymouth etc.

-142s, 143s, 150s, 156s, all sent for scrap.

Agreed mostly. Electrification of the GWML should be done, no arguments. It serves many major economic centres, Reading, Newbury, Swindon (M4 economic corridor), Bath, Bristol, South Wales high tech industries at Newport, Cardiff also Exeter etc.

The time savings of electrification to Exeter would allow trains to be dragged by diesel as far as Penzance.
158/159s aren't really suitable for local stopping services particularly in Devon and Cornwall - they should really stick on mid-distance services as they have a hopeless door layout. A new batch of 172s should be built for local services basically to replace the 150/153/156.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely a complete waste of time and money for what is little more than a handful of services a day?

Agreed, a silly idea from the person that knows everything about railways...

 

[TEW]

158/159s aren't really suitable for local stopping services particularly in Devon and Cornwall - they should really stick on mid-distance services as they have a hopeless door layout. A new batch of 172s should be built for local services basically to replace the 150/153/156.

I would definatly agree with that, 158s and 159s are great to travel in but very slow at loading on local services, they would work on Bristol-Penzance or Cardiff-Swansea.

 

[P156KWJ]

what about Lincs, Notts and Derbys sprinters on these routes:
Leicester-Lincoln via Nottingham
Nottingham-Matlock via Derby
Nottingham - Worksop
Nottingham - Skegness
Cleethorpes - Newark NG
Doncaster - Lincoln - Spalding - Peterborough

must be about 40 153s/156s and then 25 158s

 

[route:oxford]

What about all the Scotrail 156s?
They make up 42% of the total 156 fleet.

Purely from a passenger point of view. I rather like the 156s Especially in Scotland.

In the wintery mornings (of which there tend to be quite a few north of the border), the end carriage doors and vestibule make a huge difference to the comfort on board the train. 1/3rd & 2/3rd doors are hopeless when it's cold/wild.

I've no idea of their true reliability (when they are maintained to a good standard), but there is something distinctly reassuring about a 156 with the ploughs fitted.

How reliable are they? They do appear to be fairly solidly built beasts with little to go wrong (compared to a Voyager for example).

 

[Pumbaa]

Sensible idea. Henceforth it won't happen.

 

[507 001]

you seem to be forgetting northern too.... remember that their entire fleet is made up of the units that you propose to withdraw.

I also wouldn't say that they were life expired. unsuitable yes, life expired maybe not.

 

[Waverley125]

the idea is that Northern would be getting a lot of new 333s for Leeds services to Harrogate, Sheffield, Hull , York, Scaborough, Huddersfield, Halifax etc, as well as 185s off TPE for secondary transpennine services. There would be a lot of services still needing diesels, but many of these would be cascaded off other routes-a hope of 170s for northern to go with Adelantes or even 222s.

 

[sven945]

the idea is that Northern would be getting a lot of new 333s for Leeds services to Harrogate

That would be rather nice! But in the grand scheme of things, aren't there sections of track that would be more suitable for electrification than the Leeds-Harrogate-York like with its (if my memory serves me correctly) two trains per hour in each direction?

 

[The Planner]

Agreed mostly. Electrification of the GWML should be done, no arguments. It serves many major economic centres, Reading, Newbury, Swindon (M4 economic corridor), Bath, Bristol, South Wales high tech industries at Newport, Cardiff also Exeter etc.

You couldnt electrify it any further than Bristol Parkway towrds Wales I wouldnt have thought ?. Is the Severn Tunnel big enough to handle OHLE ? and also the fact its a tad damp.

MML will be the one that gets announced for wires, Id put a small wager on that.

 

[sven945]

Presumably the benefits of electrification are greater on long distance routes? Memories of covering power and electricity in physics lessons are distant, but I imagine that's the case?

Also, isn't the running of 125s on most of the ECML a bit of waste? I know (or at least I'm pretty sure) northern sections of the line don't have wires, but speaking entirely on an energy level wouldn't it be better to run 225s from King's Cross to where the wires stop then have changes to125s there? Obviously in the real world that wouldn't happen, and travelling by train would be even less appealing if there was no way to get to Edinburgh without changing!

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably the benefits of electrification are greater on long distance routes? Memories of covering power and electricity in physics lessons are distant, but I imagine that's the case?

Also, isn't the running of 125s on most of the ECML a bit of waste? I know (or at least I'm pretty sure) northern sections of the line don't have wires, but speaking entirely on an energy level wouldn't it be better to run 225s from King's Cross to where the wires stop then have changes to125s there? Obviously in the real world that wouldn't happen, and travelling by train would be even less appealing if there was no way to get to Edinburgh without changing!

The line to Edinburgh (and through, via Carstairs, to Glasgow) is electrified! The Aberdeen, Inverness and Hull services require HSTs as they run out from under the wires; there's a few services past Leeds need them too as although they run under wires, 225s draw too much power. There are other HST services- I guess they're down to not having sufficient 225s.

 

[metrocammel]

I think it's ovious to everyone that the Pacers are life-expired, and that the 150/3/6s soon will be. They are the nadir of rolling stock that give the railways a bad name, and need replacing.


-142s, 143s, 150s, 156s, all sent for scrap.

That's a very sweeping statement, and elsewhere in your quote you are missing areas, and large fundamental points.

As someone else has mentioned, Manchester / Liverpool are big areas, that rely hugely on your proposed 'axe' list.

Also, 156s seem to be fine in Scotland- and considering 158s are only a couple of years younger than 156s, they should be included??

Also, before 'young' 156s get replaced, surely you should be looking at replacing the 'vintage' electric units, such as 313s / 315s- they are a good 10 years older than the the 'oldest' 2nd gen DMU in service, the 142.

Also, you are looking at this from an 'enthusiast' point of view. In reality, normals don't really know what class 'Train A' is from 'Train B'. If it gets them from A to B at the same speed, it's fine. Their real problem is when over-crowding occcurs, and the train can't physically get you from A to B, because it's too busy. That is why scrapping perfectly good units, that are less than 20 years old is ludicrous.

I agree that the 'pacer' range of trains aren't as comfortable as say, a 170, however, for the type of work they do, they are OK.

A train only really needs replacing when it's uneconomical to run, or legislations says it has to be withdrawn. As long as passengers have a service, in reasonable comfort, they aren't going to complain.

2)Build more Pendos for the WCML, allowing 221s to be cascaded off services that are entirely under wires.

More Pendos are being built. The only 221s working out of Euston on the WCML (except from mid-January, with the interim Voyager working the FO Euston -Preston before the LHCS is available) are those that work to Holyhead. I can't see how they will be replaced, unless they go back to dragging Pendo's with 57s- as the chanced of the North Wales Coast being electrified are very slim!

3)Wire Liverpool-Scbro/Mbro/Hull and build new EMUs for TPE services. These need to be 6-8 cars, with full first class & restaurant facilities.

lol! hmmm, possibly not EMUs, but units Liverpool - North East, with full restaurant cars sounds a lot like the 'Griddle Cars' of the 1960s cl.124s! They were premier units!

Yes, it would be nice to electrify the TPE line, and it probably will happen when everyone on here's either 6 foot under, or at least in possesion of a bus pass I think we'll have to wait even longer before we have a full restaurant service on the services in question! Unless there is something your not sharing with us?

 

[sven945]

jopsuk: I couldn't remember where the wires ran out. Cheers for the clarification on it being Edinburgh.
metrocammel: I believe the Birmingham-Scotland Virgin services are run by Voyagers, which seems an utter waste since the whole thing (including the Edinburgh branch?) is electrified?

 

[Pumbaa]

More Pendos are being built. The only 221s working out of Euston on the WCML (except from mid-January, with the interim Voyager working the FO Euston -Preston before the LHCS is available) are those that work to Holyhead. I can't see how they will be replaced, unless they go back to dragging Pendo's with 57s- as the chanced of the North Wales Coast being electrified are very slim!

Only 4 extra Pendos; the new stock does not replace the SuperVoyagers used on BHM - GLC/EDB. The order is for extending 30 ish Pendos to 11-car, and 4 brand new entire 11-car sets. There is also an option to extend the order to cover the remaining Pendos all to 11-car.

 

[Phoenix]

I do like the sense of everything Proposed Although I would say they all need scrapping.
150's are defiantly ready to go as they are pretty damn old and well one of the worst unit's.
But as for 153's LM have done a good job restoring them.
To be honest even just keeping them for extra capacity at peak hours is quite cost effective for them.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Virgin trains had plans to run a fleet of loco-hauled services using class 67 locomotives and a rake of 5 or so coaches but the plans never came into fruition and they just ordered a load of voyagers instead.

I often wonder how different things could have been....

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

I quite like the 156s, they are a damn sight more preferable to a 142 or a 158!! The pacers do have one redeaming feature, in that the heaters are usually on full blast in the winter... and the summer!! d'oh

 

[metrocammel]

I quite like the 156s, they are a damn sight more preferable to a 142 or a 158!! The pacers do have one redeaming feature, in that the heaters are usually on full blast in the winter... and the summer!! d'oh

Yes, that is a design flaw of the 142s, the 'hot air' comes directly from the engines, and there is no way of controlling it- although I swear I've seen thermostats on the ATN 142s.

I also like 156s, to me they are quality units, however, from a guards point of view, they are a nightmare when it comes to revenue duties- as has been discussed on here in the past. On a hot day, they are far better than a 158 with broken air-con! Really, there is no replacement for 'real' fresh air sometimes, rather than air-con 'cooled' air.

 

[tbtc]

Surely a complete waste of time and money for what is little more than a handful of services a day?

Electrifying the Durham coast line (through Sunderland) makes a lot of sense - yesterday I travelled from Edinburgh to Doncaster on an NXEC 125 down that line because there's no wires for the 225s.

Electrifying that line would also mean the Middlebrough - Manchester services could go to EMU operation (if the line over the Pennines is electrified, as suggested)...

...the hourly Middlebrough - Newcastle service already runs under (Metro) wires north of Sunderland (albeit not under wires once it reaches Gateshead where the Metro line splits off)...

...plus if the line was "wired" all the way, then NXEC could serve Sunderland (the biggest city between Leeds and Edinburgh), rather than have to rely on an Open Access operator.

As for the rest of this thread, it's a wish list with some sensible proposals (EMUs from Birmingham - Glasgow/ Edinburgh) and some "less so". Personally, I think there's a lot of small "gaps" that we'd be better filling in, a lot cheaper and easier and quicker than wholescale electrification though...

 

[Metroland]

The Voyagers were the most serious traction mistake in a generation. The WCML stock should have been refurbished and cascaded to cross country lines and those lines electrified where possible and certain parts resignalled. Didcot - Banbury in particular suffers from lack of freight loops and long signal sections.

Since then the Voyagers have had the tilt removed. A system which involved a lot extra weight and reduced passenger interior. The shops were a complete joke on such a small train.

The routes are gagging for long trains (easily handled by electric trains) which should have been filled with a lot of cheap tickets - especially as these trains lend themselves to VFR customers often pre-booking. I have never yet been on a voyager that isnt full and standing - sometimes down the isles. I must have been on a couple of dozen.

The timetables have since been padded out, offering little improvement over the old timetable. Passenger numbers would have picked up anyway, some of these routes are ripe for development like Reading-Birmingham and with the extra sock should have offered a core half hourly timetable from Exeter-Leeds/York, or Manchester-Reading, with hourly or less service further out.

As for the replacement of the northern DMUs, I believe there is nothing in the pipeline, the best can be hoped for is cascading of 158s and 156s from Trans-pennine and other duties replaced by Turbostars and 185s.

ROSCOS are not keen to order new diesels, which will have a 30-40 year life right now. By 2040 these could look very old fashioned and offer substandard performance, track load and environmental credentials.

 

[MCR247]

Is it possible to have a train Diesel, but can use overhead electric? If yes I would of made the 390 & Voyagers 1 order and made then diesel for XC services & when they get onto electrified lines they could use the pantograph. Then have a batch of electric only.

 

[jopsuk]

Is it possible to have a train Diesel, but can use overhead electric? If yes I would of made the 390 & Voyagers 1 order and made then diesel for XC services & when they get onto electrified lines they could use the pantograph. Then have a batch of electric only.

Technically a possibility, yes, and this has been specified for the Intercity Express Project (the current name for what started out as HST2, and will end up a total mess). However, you add large amounts of weight to the train, and would struggle (I'd reckon) to do it underfloor. So, you might as well have a coaching rake with a driving car at one end and a loco at the other, and do loco swaps where the wires ran out (as a hybrid loco would be less powerful than either a diesel or electric one)

 

[Pumbaa]

Technically a possibility, yes, and this has been specified for the Intercity Express Project (the current name for what started out as HST2, and will end up a total mess). However, you add large amounts of weight to the train, and would struggle (I'd reckon) to do it underfloor. So, you might as well have a coaching rake with a driving car at one end and a loco at the other, and do loco swaps where the wires ran out (as a hybrid loco would be less powerful than either a diesel or electric one)

Why is DfT not seeing this?! Alternatively, stick an electric loco one end, a diesel the other! Same design, just different engine! Joisus...

Mk4s are a brilliant example of IC travel and how it should be IMO.