45mph Heritage Railways?

[BerkshireRails]

Why 45mph for passenger services?
1) Top speed of tender locos in reverse
2) Top Speed of small locos like the GWR (Great Western Railway) 57XX Panniers
3) Allow them to be quicker than buses which is already the case with some railways like the East Lancs Railway.
4) Allowing for more frequent service
5) Allowing for the locos to be able to stretch there legs
6) A number of railways* are already allowed to do above 25mph in testing rolling stock so the track can take the increased speeds.
7) Some railways** apparently already let DMUs do 40mph in service.
8) North Yorkshire Moor Railway is allowed to 45mph in passenger service on the Esk Valley Line between Battersby and Whitby.

* West Somerset Railway = 60mph, Great Central Railway = 75mph Diesel, 60 = mph Steam, Severn Valley Railway = 35mph,

** West Somerset Railway,


Mitigations for 45mph passenger service
1) Enhanced ORR (Office of Rail & Road) assessment
2) AWS (Automatic Warning System) for all signals which would have it on the mainline*
3) Rolling stock must be in a fit state to do 45mph
4) Ban on unbraked passenger stock in service** when running above 25mph

* Watercress Line already does this so it isn't impractical to do it
** Isle of Wight Steam Railway has a couple of unbraked passenger carriages

Type	Example loco	Total Driving Wheel Diameter (In)	Piston Stroke (In)	Number of Cylinders	Max Speed (mph)
Ex-Great Western Railway
Saint 4-6-0	2999	80.5	30	2	70
Hall 4-6-0	4965	72	30	2	65
Castle 4-6-0	5043	80.6	26	4	75
King 4-6-0	6024	78	28	4	75
57xx 0-6-0PT	9600	54	24	2	45
94xx 0-6-0 PT	9466	56	24	2	45
Ex-Southern Railway
N15 Arthur 4-6-0	30777	79	28	2	70
Lord Nelson 4-6-0	850	79	28	4	75
WC/BB 4-6-2	34067	74	24	3	75
MN 4-6-2	35028	74	24	3	75
Ex-London Midland Scottish Railway
5MT 4-6-0	45407	72	28	2	65
5XP 4-6-0	5690	81	26	3	75
6P 4-6-0	46115	81	26	3	75
Princess Royal 4-6-2	6201	78	28	4	75
Duchess 4-6-2	6233	81	28	4	80
8F 2-8-0	48151	57	28	2	50
Ex- London North Eastern Railway
A4 4-6-2	60007	80	26	3	80
A3 4-6-2	4472	80	26	3	75
A1 4-6-2	60163	80	26	3	80
A2 4-6-2	60532	74	26	3	75
P2 2-8-2	2007	74	26	3	75
V2 2-6-2	4771	74	26	3	75
B1 4-6-0	61264	74	26	2	70
K1 2-6-0	2005	62	26	2	55
K4 2-6-0	3442	62	26	3	60
British Rail Standard
7P 4-6-2	70013	74	28	2	75
8P 4-6-2	71000	74	28	3	75
4MT 2-6-0	76079	63	26	2	60

Table Data

 

[Cowley]

Reasons not to run at 45 mph

Just off the top of my head.

1) Extra wear and tear
2) Extra use of coal (which is already expensive)
3) Having to remove various foot crossings
4) Huge amounts of pointless extra expenditure in an already struggling sector
5) What’s the point of it?

Surely the idea is to have a leisurely trip in an old style steam (or even diesel) train, looking at the view from the window and relaxing?

Not barely having time to sit down before having to get off again while everyone tears around trying to keep the timetable moving.

I fear that your ideas are very much coming from an enthusiasts point of view with very little thought of what makes a family day out and it’s the latter that pay most of the bills…

 

[CMS1]

All you would achieve is visitors thinking 'that didnt last long'. Longer the trip, higher the perceived value

 

[LowLevel]

The North Yorks Moors surrendered their rights to run to Battersby and now only do 25 mph to Whitby.

The West Somerset DMU is only allowed to do 25 mph in passenger service.

The authorities would want Central door locking at higher speeds to reduce the risk of people falling out, expensive and technically difficult though possible.

You make the journey shorter which on many lines is less appealing as they're not very long as it is.

You increase wear and tear on trains and infrastructure.

It has been looked at a few times and concluded to be a bad idea.

 

[frankmoh]

I thought the point of heritage railways was to be a nice slow ride through the countryside. Obviously its a bit sad for some trains that can actually go fast, like the HSTs at the Colne Valley Railway, but that's ok

Also a lot safer for the people who like to window hang, even though its not supposed to be allowed anymore. (going back to the HSTs I seem to recall a picture of video of someone window hanging at 125mph, bloody hell!)

 

[BerkshireRails]

Reasons not to run at 45 mph

Just off the top of my head.

1) Extra wear and tear
2) Extra use of coal (which is already expensive)

I have a feeling it is £600 a ton.

3) Having to remove various foot crossings

I didn't consider they had to be removed I thought it might be possible to just upgrade them.

4) Huge amounts of pointless extra expenditure in an already struggling sector
5) What’s the point of it?

It would give a Unique selling point (USP) which could attract additional visitors however it is a fair comment that this maybe insufficient to offset the increased operating cost.

Surely the idea is to have a leisurely trip in an old style steam (or even diesel) train, looking at the view from the window and relaxing?

Not barely having time to sit down before having to get off again while everyone tears around trying to keep the timetable moving.

I fear that your ideas are very much coming from an enthusiasts point of view with very little thought of what makes a family day out and it’s the latter that pay most of the bills…

Yeah, it does come from an enthusiasts and volunteer point of view. It would mainly be a way of making galas better and making heritage railway more competitive with buses. The East Lancs Railway is one of the few heritage railways which is an attractive local public transport option instead of the slower buses.

The North Yorks Moors surrendered their rights to run to Battersby and now only do 25 mph to Whitby.

Do you roughly know when they surrendered there rights?

The West Somerset DMU is only allowed to do 25 mph in passenger service.

Does that also apply to the Great Western Railway units on the Taunton to Bishop Lydeard service?

 

[cav1975]

Mitigations for 45mph passenger service

4) Ban on unbraked passenger stock in service** when running above 25mph


** Isle of Wight Steam Railway has a couple of unbraked passenger carriages

Type

Table Data

All the passenger carrying vehicles and some of the engineering fleet on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway are air braked in full compliance with the regulations.

 

[Cowley]

All the passenger carrying vehicles and some of the engineering fleet on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway are air braked in full compliance with the regulations.

That’s very true. But then who would be willing to sign off on Victorian wooden bodied stock rattling along at 45 mph?

 

[BerkshireRails]

All the passenger carrying vehicles and some of the engineering fleet on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway are air braked in full compliance with the regulations.

I remember them saying in the Channel 4 TV programme the 'Great Rail Restorations' that the Oldbury coach had to have an exemption because it had no brakes for when they ran it on Llangollen Railway or did they not tell the whole truth as Llangollen Railway is Vacuum and Isle of Wight is Air?

That’s very true. But then who would be willing to sign off on Victorian wooden bodied stock rattling along at 45 mph?

That sounds like something West Coast Railways would do.

 

[cav1975]

I remember them saying in the Channel 4 TV programme the 'Great Rail Restorations' that the Oldbury coach had to have an exemption because it had no brakes for when they ran it on Llangollen Railway or did they not tell the whole truth as Llangollen Railway is Vacuum and Isle of Wight is Air?

The Oldbury coach was vacuum piped for the filming. On its return to the Island a full air brake system, including a passenger communication valve, was fitted.

That’s very true. But then who would be willing to sign off on Victorian wooden bodied stock rattling along at 45 mph?

We're perfectly happy with running our vintage carriages at 25mph max.

 

[satisnek]

45mph running would be cool on the GCR, but it would be a very quick journey...

 

[BerkshireRails]

45mph running would be cool on the GCR, but it would be a very quick journey...

It would still take at least 40 minutes to do a complete end to end run of the line (post extensions). So you get a decent run time and a decent mileage.

Up 45 mph GCR.

	2LXX	2LXX
Ruddington Central	XX:07	XX:37
Rushcliff Halt	XX:16	XX:46
Loughborough Central	XX:28	XX:58
Quorn & Woodhouse	XX:33	XX:03
Rothley	XX:40	XX:10
Leicester North	XX:47	XX:17

Down 45mph GCR

	2NXX	2NXX
Leicester North	XX:07	XX:37
Rothley	XX:13	XX:43
Quorn & Woodhouse	XX:20	XX:53
Loughborough Central	XX:35	Xx:05
Rushcliff Halt	XX:38	XX:08
Radcliffe Central	XX:47	XX:17

 

[A S Leib]

The East Lancs Railway is one of the few heritage railways which is an attractive local public transport option instead of the slower buses.

Although £20 for a day ticket against £6 return by bus, and gaps of an hour and a half or longer between trains on the days the railway's running cuts down on its utility as proper public transport. I'd guess that you're thinking of tourists in east Lancashire more than of people living in Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom?

 

[Nym]

45mph running would be cool on the GCR, but it would be a very quick journey...

GCR can do 75mph under spesific conditions

 

[BerkshireRails]

Although £20 for a day ticket against £6 return by bus, and gaps of an hour and a half or longer between trains on the days the railway's running cuts down on its utility as proper public transport. I'd guess that you're thinking of tourists in east Lancashire more than of people living in Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom?

The bus is only cheaper because of the £3 bus fare.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The authorities would want Central door locking at higher speeds to reduce the risk of people falling out, expensive and technically difficult though possible

Why there is that organisation that runs specials on the London overground network with a MK1 and a pre BR Inspection saloon with CDL.
Its mounted externally to the bottom of the doors.

The biggest problem with running preserved railways at anything over 25mph is that it would probably need to go through Parliament as they wouldn't be classified as a 'Light railway'

 

[LowLevel]

Why there is that organisation that runs specials on the London overground network with a MK1 and a pre BR Inspection saloon with CDL.
Its mounted externally to the bottom of the doors.

The biggest problem with running preserved railways at anything over 25mph is that it would probably need to go through Parliament as they wouldn't be classified as a 'Light railway'

Yes, I bet it cost them a tenner per coach to fit, not. Well worth the thousands of pounds to trot along a bit faster for no reason on a heritage railway.

Bespoke systems running off the coach batteries for the average vacuum braked steam hauled heritage railway coach would need thousands of pounds just to get the batteries up to spec for the most part, they're rarely in good nick as the lighting often isn't used. They also don't like charging at low speeds.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Bespoke systems running off the coach batteries for the average vacuum braked steam hauled heritage railway coach would need thousands of pounds just to get the batteries up to spec for the most part, they're rarely in good nick as the lighting often isn't used. They also don't like charging at low speeds.

Running at 45mph would improve charging, I believe it is around 10mph when the batteries start charging.

 

[LowLevel]

Running at 45mph would improve charging, I believe it is around 10mph when the batteries start charging.

It depends on whether the railway in question have shortened the dynamo belts in the case of Mk1s. In any case, there's no off the shelf solution to the problem.

 

[D365]

Yes, I bet it cost them a tenner per coach to fit, not. Well worth the thousands of pounds to trot along a bit faster for no reason on a heritage railway.

Bespoke systems running off the coach batteries for the average vacuum braked steam hauled heritage railway coach would need thousands of pounds just to get the batteries up to spec for the most part, they're rarely in good nick as the lighting often isn't used. They also don't like charging at low speeds.

And the additional maintenance (read: volunteer) hours that would be required for said battery and door control systems…

 

[SuspectUsual]

I have a feeling it is £600 a ton.

I was quoted £450 - £475 a ton when I was talking to someone at the Talyllyn last year so that’s probably about right by now

 

[michaelh]

Although £20 for a day ticket against £6 return by bus, and gaps of an hour and a half or longer between trains on the days the railway's running cuts down on its utility as proper public transport. I'd guess that you're thinking of tourists in east Lancashire more than of people living in Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom?

And free on the bus for older persons

 

[satisnek]

It would still take at least 40 minutes to do a complete end to end run of the line (post extensions). So you get a decent run time and a decent mileage.

Up 45 mph GCR.

	2LXX	2LXX
Ruddington Central	XX:07	XX:37
Rushcliff Halt	XX:16	XX:46
Loughborough Central	XX:28	XX:58
Quorn & Woodhouse	XX:33	XX:03
Rothley	XX:40	XX:10
Leicester North	XX:47	XX:17

Down 45mph GCR

	2NXX	2NXX
Leicester North	XX:07	XX:37
Rothley	XX:13	XX:43
Quorn & Woodhouse	XX:20	XX:53
Loughborough Central	XX:35	Xx:05
Rushcliff Halt	XX:38	XX:08
Radcliffe Central	XX:47	XX:17

I was thinking of the current GCR, which as you show, would be less than 20 minutes.

 

[DJ_K666]

I was thinking of the current GCR, which as you show, would be less than 20 minutes.

I was actually quite surprised how close together the stations are on the Great Central. To be fair that was the only one that sprang readily to mind. Certainly the journey would be spectacular at 45mph but the fares would have to be much higher. Also the track eould have to be re-canted.

I did read somewhere on the Bluebell 's website that when the track at Sheffield Park was replaced after the Ouse bridge was renovated, they took the opportunity to redo the cant, as that had previously been canted for 75 mph! I'll have a look and see.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I was actually quite surprised how close together the stations are on the Great Central. To be fair that was the only one that sprang readily to mind. Certainly the journey would be spectacular at 45mph but the fares would have to be much higher. Also the track eould have to be re-canted.

I did read somewhere on the Bluebell 's website that when the track at Sheffield Park was replaced after the Ouse bridge was renovated, they took the opportunity to redo the cant, as that had previously been canted for 75 mph! I'll have a look and see.

That is why I think it would be a gala thing to start off with, then slowly spreading to some running days to reduce train Crewe requirements while keeping an attractive service for visitors and the general public.

I was thinking of the current GCR, which as you show, would be less than 20 minutes.

I went with the extended version for ease. I had modified the timetable from one I had created for a hobby project.

For the completeness here is the original timetable.

Down Direction

	2N01	2M01	2N03	1N01
Leicester Space Centre	07:00	07:15	07:30	07:45
Leicester North	07:05	07:20	07:35	07:50
Rothley (a)	07:12	07:27	07:42
Rothley (d)		07:28
Swithland Sidings		07:32
Nuckley Hill		07:40
Mountsorrel		07:43
Rothley (d)	07:13		07:43
Quorn & Woodhouse	07:20		07:50
Loughborough Central	07:25		07:55	08:06
East Leake	07:35		08:05
Rushcliff Halt	07:39		08:09
Ruddington Central	07:48		08:18	08:24
Nottingham South	07:56		08:26	08:32

Up Direction

	2M02	2N02	1N02	2N04
Nottingham South		07:00	07:15	07:30
Ruddington Central		07:07	07:22	07:07
Rushcliff Halt		07:16		07:46
East Leake		07:20		07:50
Loughborough Central		07:30	07:40	08:00
Quorn & Woodhouse		07:35		08:05
Rothley (a)		07:42		08:12
Mountsorrel	07:15
Nuckley Hill	07:18
Swithland Sidings	07:26
Rothley (a)	07:28
Rothley (d)	07:29	07:43		08:13
Leicester North	07:35	07:49	07:56	08:19
Leicester Space Centre	07:41	07:55	08:02	08:25

(a) = Arrival
(d) = Depature

 

[D6130]

did read somewhere on the Bluebell 's website that when the track at Sheffield Park was replaced after the Ouse bridge was renovated, they took the opportunity to redo the cant, as that had previously been canted for 75 mph! I'll have a look and see.

Many years ago I had sight of a 1960 Southern Region, Central Division Sectional Appendix, Table A. IIRC, the maximum permitted line speed on the Bluebell was 55 mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shortening journeys on heritage railways would decrease their financial value, not increase it. So this makes no sense.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Shortening journeys on heritage railways would decrease their financial value, not increase it. So this makes no sense.

On gala days people like to ride behind as much as possible so increasing line speed would enable that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On gala days people like to ride behind as much as possible so increasing line speed would enable that.

But this isn't the main market that makes money. That market is families wanting a day out, and a longer experience sells for a higher price.

 

[Bill57p9]

Do you roughly know when they surrendered there rights?

TLDR: 2023

The Schedule 4 & 5 (CDL and crash worthiness) exemptions are granted for up to 5 years. NYMR's previous exemptions lapsed on 31 March 2023 (same day as other heritage operators including famously WCRC). ORR had clearly signalled that the CDL exemption would not simply be rolled over. Different operators took different approaches: Some committed to a CDL fitment programme, NYMR restricted to between Whitby and Grosmont (so that they would not pass another train) and limited to 25mph and we all know the path WCRC chose.

Does that also apply to the Great Western Railway units on the Taunton to Bishop Lydeard service?

I don't know the individual arrangements, however Schedules 4 and 5 apply to all railways (rather than individual trains) operating over 25mph, therefore I would expect this limit to apply, though alternative mitigations could be presented to allow an exemption, such as "one engine in steam" operation so that the unit cannot interact with other stock