45mph Heritage Railways?

[LowLevel]

Does that also apply to the Great Western Railway units on the Taunton to Bishop Lydeard service?

I assume so - I don't sign the route but I have taken charter trains on and off it conducted by WSR crews and once past Norton Fitzwarren the normal heritage railway speed limits applied on each occasion.

 

[devon_belle]

But this isn't the main market that makes money. That market is families wanting a day out, and a longer experience sells for a higher price.

Exactly this! Running trains past at 45 mph for the purpose of enthusiasts – who are often nonpaying spectators at the stations, bridges, and fences – is not worth it. We should be helping the heritage sector however we can rather than trying to suggest/impose more burdensome novelty aspects like 'fast' running. Fortunately there are plenty of mainline railtours for those who wish to experience heritage traction at speed.

 

[Cowley]

Exactly this! Running trains past at 45 mph for the purpose of enthusiasts – who are often nonpaying spectators at the stations, bridges, and fences – is not worth it.

This very true.
Enthusiasts and events that are put on for them are obviously an important aspect of keeping interest in the lines and machines alive - they may well go on to volunteer on a line at some point if they like what they see (I did).

I’d be surprised if the enthusiast income is any more than 10% of a railways overall income though?

Fortunately there are plenty of mainline railtours for those who wish to experience heritage traction at speed.

Definitely, and which is another thing that needs support to keep running.

 

[35B]

I was actually quite surprised how close together the stations are on the Great Central. To be fair that was the only one that sprang readily to mind. Certainly the journey would be spectacular at 45mph but the fares would have to be much higher. Also the track eould have to be re-canted.

If you want to experience the Charnwood area at more than 25mph, I suggest the MML. While it’s nice, I think calling it “spectacular” would see a call to trading standards.

 

[BerkshireRails]

But this isn't the main market that makes money. That market is families wanting a day out, and a longer experience sells for a higher price.

However on gala days people some people want to get as many miles behind a certain steam loco. On gala days it is mainly for the railway enthusiasts rather than family.

If you want to experience the Charnwood area at more than 25mph, I suggest the MML. While it’s nice, I think calling it “spectacular” would see a call to trading standards.

Railtours are good however sometimes you want to rid behind a 9F above 25mph which can't go mainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However on gala days people some people want to get as many miles behind a certain steam loco. On gala days it is mainly for the railway enthusiasts rather than family.

It is, but the cost and complexity of upgrading the running speed for just a few days a year would not be remunerative.

 

[GusB]

Even if we did see an increase to 45mph, how long would it be before the same individuals are clamouring for 55, 65, 75...?

 

[frankmoh]

Even if we did see an increase to 45mph, how long would it be before the same individuals are clamouring for 55, 65, 75...?

Is it feasible for Colne Valley's HSTs to do 125mph?

 

[BerkshireRails]

It is, but the cost and complexity of upgrading the running speed for just a few days a year would not be remunerative.

I would argue it is no different from the Mid-Hants Railway Alton loop which also just for a few days a year. Also 45mph would enable testing without exemptions for certain equipment.

 

[D365]

Also 45mph would enable testing without exemptions for certain equipment.

Again, how many heritage railways would actually be able to make their money back? Bearing in mind that there isn’t an exceedingly high demand for GB railway test centres.

 

[35B]

I would argue it is no different from the Mid-Hants Railway Alton loop which also just for a few days a year. Also 45mph would enable testing without exemptions for certain equipment.

At the cost of either requiring a change to primary legislation, a deep series of exemptions to regulations, or the heritage railway in question being treated as if part of the national network and therefore requiring the likes of TPWS, OTMR, etc. on everything that runs, permanent or visitor. That's before looking at the upgrade and maintenance implications on track and trains.

The railways I'm a member of have better things to do than pay parliamentary agents and lawyers for such a marginal benefit. But if you have a spare few million to chuck their way...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, how many heritage railways would actually be able to make their money back? Bearing in mind that there isn’t an exceedingly high demand for GB railway test centres.

Wirksworth did do this (they are allowed a higher speed, 40mph I think, when not carrying passengers) but as you say I doubt there's the demand for more than one.

 

[D365]

Wirksworth did do this (they are allowed a higher speed, 40mph I think, when not carrying passengers) but as you say I doubt there's the demand for more than one.

Indeed. EVR is a facility that I have looked into as an alternative to GCR.

 

[eldomtom2]

But this isn't the main market that makes money. That market is families wanting a day out, and a longer experience sells for a higher price.

Conversely, I have heard that too long a journey can be a turnoff for the general public...

 

[Belperpete]

At the cost of either requiring a change to primary legislation, a deep series of exemptions to regulations, or the heritage railway in question being treated as if part of the national network and therefore requiring the likes of TPWS, OTMR, etc. on everything that runs, permanent or visitor. That's before looking at the upgrade and maintenance implications on track and trains.

The railways I'm a member of have better things to do than pay parliamentary agents and lawyers for such a marginal benefit. But if you have a spare few million to chuck their way...

Is the 25mph specified in legislation these days? I was under the impression that it was one of the mitigations that ORR would accept in place of meeting the full requirements. However, they have waived it for various lines in exchange for other mitigations (such as only for testing), which rather implies it isn't mandated in legislation.

It certainly wouldn't be worth it for the shorter lines. I can remember the first time riding the KWVR, and thinking "is that it?". I suspect that there are very few lines long enough to get the benefit. And remember that although the line limit might go up, there would probably be many speed restrictions still in place that would limit the ability to reach it.

 

[35B]

Is the 25mph specified in legislation these days? I was under the impression that it was one of the mitigations that ORR would accept in place of meeting the full requirements. However, they have waived it for various lines in exchange for other mitigations (such as only for testing), which rather implies it isn't mandated in legislation.

It certainly wouldn't be worth it for the shorter lines. I can remember the first time riding the KWVR, and thinking "is that it?". I suspect that there are very few lines long enough to get the benefit. And remember that although the line limit might go up, there would probably be many speed restrictions still in place that would limit the ability to reach it.

Yes, the Railways Act 1994 has some careful definitions that protect heritage railways based on a normal operating speed of 25mph or less. The exemptions for things like testing or the GCR mail runs are very restrictive and exclude carrying passengers.

 

[zwk500]

The biggest problem with running preserved railways at anything over 25mph is that it would probably need to go through Parliament as they wouldn't be classified as a 'Light railway'

They wouldn't, the concept of a Light Railway Order was replaced quite a while ago. Heritage Railways would only need to apply to the ORR to exceed 25mph. They would, of course, require suitable safety systems in place to manage the risk appropriately for the speed being applied for.

The ORR (https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/who-we-work-with/railway-networks/minor-heritage-railways) says:

This page sets out what rail systems are excluded from the mainline railway requirements of the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 (as amended) (ROGS).
ROGS give us discretion to exclude from the mainline railway requirements certain transport systems. They fall within one or more of the following categories:

1. metros and other light rail systems;
2. networks that are functionally separate from the rest of the mainline railway and intended only for the operation of local, urban or suburban passenger services, as well as transport undertakings operating solely on these networks;
3. heritage, museum or tourist railways that operate on their own networks; and
4. heritage vehicles that operate on both the mainline railway and complies with national safety rules.

We have published an approved list of transport systems that are excluded from the mainline railway. There is also the following 'blanket exclusion' from the mainline railway:

• Privately owned infrastructure that exists solely for use by the infrastructure owner for its own freight operations.

Applicants may seek changes to the approved list by contacting us. For further information on the process for making an application, please see our guidance document.

The 25mph limit now comes from the Railway Safety Regulations 1999:

Railway operators who operate on systems that have a line speed not exceeding 25mph (40kph) are exempted from the Railway Safety Regulations 1999. Minor and heritage railway systems can also apply to be exempt from certain mainline safety requirements, such as train driver licensing.

The ORR states in guidance (https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-05/train-protection-systems-guidance-on-rsr-1999.pdf) that this means in practice a minimum standard of TPWS.

1.6 In practice, this means that RSR99 requires the use of the Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS), which is capable of intervening and applying train brakes, as a minimum,

There does exist the power for the ORR to grant exemptions:

4. Exemptions
4.1 RSR99 gives ORR powers to grant an exemption from the requirement to operate with a train protection system in service (regulation 3).
4.2 Exemptions can be subject to conditions and to time limitations (regulation 6(1)). Exemption certificates are issued in writing and may be revoked in writing at any time. Prior to granting an exemption, ORR will consult such persons as it considers appropriate.
4.3 In accordance with regulation 6(3) of RSR99, when considering whether to grant an exemption, ORR will have regard to: (a) the conditions, if any which it proposes to attach to the exemption; (b) any other requirements imposed by or under any enactment which apply to the case; and (c) all other circumstances of the case.

However I would expect that exemptions from fitting TPWS for regular passenger services would be hard for most heritage railways to secure.

It would give a Unique selling point (USP) which could attract additional visitors however it is a fair comment that this maybe insufficient to offset the increased operating cost.

It's only a USP if nobody else does it. The economics of running faster than 25mph means it's only going to be worth it for a handful of the larger railways who have the bigger express locos, and the more railways that exceed 25mph the less of a selling point it becomes for all of them.

Let the GCR claim the 'mainline preserved railway' tag and they can invest in the proper Safety case for running above 25mph, and let that be their USP. For everybody else breaking the 25mph barrier is likely only going to be worth it for test or training purposes, for which the railway can be closed to other traffic.

 

[D6130]

A lot of older steam locomotives are not fitted with speedometers, therefore the crew have to judge the speed at which they are travelling to the best of their ability. A few years ago I was travelling on a standard gauge heritage railway - which shall remain nameless for obvious reasons - and I noticed that we seemed to be travelling at a considerably higher speed than 25 mph on a downhill section. I discreetly set the speedometer function on my smartphone and recorded a maximum of 41.9.

 

[RT4038]

I should imagine that a heritage railway's insurers may have something to say (and reflect in their premiums) about faster running with passengers / around crowds of people too.

 

[DJ_K666]

Many years ago I had sight of a 1960 Southern Region, Central Division Sectional Appendix, Table A. IIRC, the maximum permitted line speed on the Bluebell was 55 mph.

That's interesting. Apparently the track was canted for more than that. Their website had said it was for 70 but I can easily see the line limit being 55. The recent relaying has adjusted this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2025 ==

A lot of older steam locomotives are not fitted with speedometers, therefore the crew have to judge the speed at which they are travelling to the best of their ability. A few years ago I was travelling on a standard gauge heritage railway - which shall remain nameless for obvious reasons - and I noticed that we seemed to be travelling at a considerably higher speed than 25 mph on a downhill section. I discreetly set the speedometer function on my smartphone and recorded a maximum of 41.9.

I'm surprised you got a signal. I found there was a definite lack of one at the Bluebell.

 

[Krokodil]

Railtours are good however sometimes you want to rid behind a 9F above 25mph which can't go mainline.

9Fs are designed for heavy freight, not fast passenger work. Stick a long goods train behind them and they'll be quite fine at 25mph.

Now, it would be nice to have some fast runs down the GCR behind Butler Henderson on a gala day, but otherwise we shall have to contend with the mail trains.

 

[D6130]

I'm surprised you got a signal. I found there was a definite lack of one at the Bluebell.

It wasn't the Bluebell!

 

[Egg Centric]

Personally I find it awful being pulled along by huge express locos at 25mph which is why I prefer preserved narrow gauge or industrial railways (such as my local, the Tanfield). The former is like driving a Ferrari in 2nd gear and only with the clutch and brake pedals; the latter is like driving a Trabant. It may be a far less capable machine but you're at least pushing it closer to its limit with all the beautiful sound and vibration and so on that that comes with.

But there's just not enough of us to make this viable for the reasons others have said, especially cause of extreme risk averse regulation. Still @BerkshireRails I thought you could take some comfort from knowing you're not the only one.

 

[duffield]

That's interesting. Apparently the track was canted for more than that. Their website had said it was for 70 but I can easily see the line limit being 55. The recent relaying has adjusted this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2025 ==


I'm surprised you got a signal. I found there was a definite lack of one at the Bluebell.

You don't need a mobile signal for GPS speed/location recording. You should be able to get GPS anywhere except in tunnels, deep cuttings etc.

 

[DJ_K666]

You don't need a mobile signal for GPS speed/location recording. You should be able to get GPS anywhere except in tunnels, deep cuttings etc.

I'll have to give it a try. So many of those apps chuck ads at you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2025 ==

It wasn't the Bluebell!

Heh I'm glad.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2025 ==

Personally I find it awful being pulled along by huge express locos at 25mph which is why I prefer preserved narrow gauge or industrial railways (such as my local, the Tanfield). The former is like driving a Ferrari in 2nd gear and only with the clutch and brake pedals; the latter is like driving a Trabant. It may be a far less capable machine but you're at least pushing it closer to its limit with all the beautiful sound and vibration and so on that that comes with.

But there's just not enough of us to make this viable for the reasons others have said, especially cause of extreme risk averse regulation. Still @BerkshireRails I thought you could take some comfort from knowing you're not the only one.

Let's not forget, especially in the case of the Kent & East Sussex and the East Kent Railways, the ex Colonel Stephens lines were built under the (then recent) Light Railways Act which always operated at 25mph when they were open originally.

Many of the lines which went on to be preserved, not counting the GCR might have had an operating speed of 35 perhaps, so 25 isn't that much of a departure.

As mentioned previously in the thread, many locos don't have a speedometer so it's pretty much what looks 'about right' to the driver. No doubt there's a method of judging speed, maybe passing a ¼ mile marker at certain intervals.
Is use of a Speedometer GPS app in a loco cab frowned upon?

 

[LowLevel]

I'll have to give it a try. So many of those apps chuck ads at you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2025 ==


Heh I'm glad.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2025 ==


Let's not forget, especially in the case of the Kent & East Sussex and the East Kent Railways, the ex Colonel Stephens lines were built under the (then recent) Light Railways Act which always operated at 25mph when they were open originally.

Many of the lines which went on to be preserved, not counting the GCR might have had an operating speed of 35 perhaps, so 25 isn't that much of a departure.

As mentioned previously in the thread, many locos don't have a speedometer so it's pretty much what looks 'about right' to the driver. No doubt there's a method of judging speed, maybe passing a ¼ mile marker at certain intervals.
Is use of a Speedometer GPS app in a loco cab frowned upon?

The line I use has GPS speedometers for locos without them that are issued to drivers by the controller.

 

[DJ_K666]

The line I use has GPS speedometers for locos without them that are issued to drivers by the controller.

That's the solution then. How did they do it back in the day, before the age of the Smart phone?

 

[LowLevel]

That's the solution then. How did they do it back in the day, before the age of the Smart phone?

Just experience as far as I know! Same as if I'm driving my car at 30 mph I don't need to look at the speedo really, I can hold it within an mph or 2.

 

[Krokodil]

That's the solution then. How did they do it back in the day, before the age of the Smart phone?

The exhaust beat of a steam loco will sound right to the ear. Footplate inspectors also had calibrated watches for monitoring drivers.

 

[BerkshireRails]

9Fs are designed for heavy freight, not fast passenger work. Stick a long goods train behind them and they'll be quite fine at 25mph.

The 9Fs still hauled express passenger service with BR, so allowing them do 45mph I don't think would be an issue.

It's only a USP if nobody else does it. The economics of running faster than 25mph means it's only going to be worth it for a handful of the larger railways who have the bigger express locos, and the more railways that exceed 25mph the less of a selling point it becomes for all of them.

Might want to tell the NYMR that, who said there USP is operating steam engines.