377/6

[Class377/5]

Oh and 377614 was apparently heading South on Saturday. Updated my post again.

What time was it heading south on Saturday?

Thanks for the news that 618 was out yesterday. Told its booked out today am peak


Will add that with the times being added to service they can be withdrawn at any time and put on other diagrams for various reasons.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What time was it heading south on Saturday?

Thanks for the news that 618 was out yesterday. Told its booked out today am peak


Will add that with the times being added to service they can be withdrawn at any time and put on other diagrams for various reasons.

Afternoon trip. Would have arrived at Wembley after dark. Thats assuming it made it there. Is it not normally weekday early mornings ?.

 

[33056]

Afternoon trip. Would have arrived at Wembley after dark. Thats assuming it made it there. Is it not normally weekday early mornings ?.

Looks like Saturday's train went on Monday in the usual 7O01 path at 08:31 from Wembley; don't know what the unit was as I only saw the barrier wagons returning with 66050.

66030 has delivered 377 617 today (30th) in the usual 7O01 / 6M06 paths.

 

[Class377/5]

Looks like Saturday's train went on Monday in the usual 7O01 path at 08:31 from Wembley; don't know what the unit was as I only saw the barrier wagons returning with 66050.

66030 has delivered 377 617 today (30th) in the usual 7O01 / 6M06 paths.

So we are now 12 units delivered to Southern and seven in service. Might get deliveries mid way by the end of the week then.

 

[swt_passenger]

So we are now 12 units delivered to Southern and seven in service. Might get deliveries mid way by the end of the week then.

To save me searching how many did you reckon would be needed to allow the 456s to stop running?

 

[Class377/5]

To save me searching how many did you reckon would be needed to allow the 456s to stop running?

To be honest not 100% sure but the first six units have already gone last week when only 5x 377/6 were in service. Guessing around 20x 377/6 for full replacement of the 456s.

 

[Manchester77]

Does anyone know if SWT will have any 456s refurbished before they enter service?

 

[Class377/5]

Does anyone know if SWT will have any 456s refurbished before they enter service?

Belief is they will run in de Southern livery (IE same livery with Southern logo removed just like how the 377/2 looked for Thameslink in 2009).

 

[Manchester77]

Thanks, I assume they'll eventually be painted into suburban red like the 455s?

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks, I assume they'll eventually be painted into suburban red like the 455s?

They are to be refurbished to same standards as the 455s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So we are now 12 units delivered to Southern and seven in service. Might get deliveries mid way by the end of the week then.

Oh. I make is 13 delivered and 7 in service. See my post/summary here
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---.

Thats assuming 614 arrived - well something must have arrived judging by "33056"s post (below).

Looks like Saturday's train went on Monday in the usual 7O01 path at 08:31 from Wembley; don't know what the unit was as I only saw the barrier wagons returning with 66050.

66030 has delivered 377 617 today (30th) in the usual 7O01 / 6M06 paths.

 

[Deepgreen]

So, we have even more likely confusion over first class on the 377/6s than the rest of the 377 fleet! No yellow band, combined with a lack of "1" stickers sounds like a planning catastrophe - may people don't even seem to know that first class is first class on the existing fleet, judging by the numbers of standard class ticket holders that use them!

Southern's first class policy is atrocious and smacks of petulance that they were more or less forced to provide a nominal first class area by the Brighton line users back when the 377 units were about to be introduced. The first class accommodation is of low quality and I have heard many people exclaim that it looks just like the rest of the train!

What a mess.

 

[hwl]

To be honest not 100% sure but the first six units have already gone last week when only 5x 377/6 were in service. Guessing around 20x 377/6 for full replacement of the 456s.

As many of the 456s are used in pairs to effectively form a 4 car unit then may be when 12x 377/6 are working reliably could see them all go.

Aren't the 456s also being used to cover for the Southern 455 refresh programme (or has it finished) in which case it could be slightly longer?

 

[Vicpaul]

No many, all 456s are in pairs as that's how they are as units.

There won't be any 12 car 377/6 as the are all five can units and as drivers this is what we have been told. Existing 377 units will still make 12 car formations but the 600s will only ever be five and tens

 

[TEW]

The 456s run in a variety of formations at the moment. In the morning 3x456 is common. In the evening 456+456x2 is more common. One unit also runs on its own all day on the Tattenham Corner-Purley shuttles.

 

[87015]

The 456s run in a variety of formations at the moment. In the morning 3x456 is common. In the evening 456+456x2 is more common. One unit also runs on its own all day on the Tattenham Corner-Purley shuttles.

Think the 3x456 lash ups have all finished now though...?

 

[Lrd]

There won't be any 12 car 377/6 as the are all five can units and as drivers this is what we have been told. Existing 377 units will still make 12 car formations but the 600s will only ever be five and tens

Think he meant 12 x 377/6 units in service, as in 12 x 5 car units.

 

[TEW]

Think the 3x456 lash ups have all finished now though...?

Still at least one, possibly two sets in the morning AFAIK, at least there was last week. There were three sets of 3x456 diagrammed in the am prior to the 6 being withdrawn.

 

[Deepgreen]

To be honest not 100% sure but the first six units have already gone last week when only 5x 377/6 were in service. Guessing around 20x 377/6 for full replacement of the 456s.

20 x 377/6 units = 100 coaches. 24 x 456 units = 48 coaches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 456s run in a variety of formations at the moment. In the morning 3x456 is common. In the evening 456+456x2 is more common. One unit also runs on its own all day on the Tattenham Corner-Purley shuttles.

Do you mean 455+456x2 in the evenings?

 

[TEW]

Yes, I did.

 

[Class377/5]

Oh. I make is 13 delivered and 7 in service. See my post/summary here

Thats assuming 614 arrived - well something must have arrived judging by "33056"s post (below).

Its me, I had 620 missing for some reason.

So, we have even more likely confusion over first class on the 377/6s than the rest of the 377 fleet! No yellow band, combined with a lack of "1" stickers sounds like a planning catastrophe - may people don't even seem to know that first class is first class on the existing fleet, judging by the numbers of standard class ticket holders that use them!

The fleet is in the middle of being commissioned and introduced in service so any comments are jumping the gun. Wait a few months when things have settled down rather than jumping to conclusions.

20 x 377/6 units = 100 coaches. 24 x 456 units = 48 coaches.

Of course that assumes the 377/6 replaces the 456 completely where as they don't actually.

Note as well during fleet introduction you don't just replace unit for units initially but allow for a build up of units in case there is an issue. Called sensible planning.

 

[Peter Sarf]

........
Of course that assumes the 377/6 replaces the 456 completely where as they don't actually.

Note as well during fleet introduction you don't just replace unit for units initially but allow for a build up of units in case there is an issue. Called sensible planning.

It does seem to be the case that the 377/6s are not directly replacing the 456s. So it is not possible to compare coach for coach.

Currently, from what I have seen, the 377/6s are being used in pairs to replace 377s that are formed 3+3+4 car. The 3 car 377s then seem to replace 456s. I am going to assume that 3+3 car 377s replace 2*456s (2+2 car). So one pair of 377s (10 coaches) INDIRECTLY replace one pair of 456s (4 coaches). The other 6 coaches are a 4car 377 going somewhere and 2 car lengthening. So that means that the 24 456s are replaced by 24 377/6s.

The above is a bit of a wild guess I confess. But the whole point of the 377/6s is to facilitate extension of the 8 car metro routes to 10 car is it not ?.

The 377 services that have been formed 3+3+4 car were not always so. They used to be 455+455 or often 455+456+456. Six car trains were 455+456 or quite often 456+456+456. Showing my ignorance here but how long have there been 10-car services ? These seem to be 377 services (3+3+4 car) ?. Last time I was paying attention I only saw the 377/3s working on their own and sometimes as 12 car services !. Certainly not mixed with 4-car 377s on Metro services.

I also notice some other changes to diagramming seem to mean that Southern are not having to diagram so tightly. Perhaps to make use of the extra stock they have. I was thinking of the following post which I have now dug out.

.........

I was interested to see 377/6s on the 04.56 Balham to London Victoria and wondered what was previously allocated. The units on this used to go empty from Victoria to Dorking but now the 0659 from Dorking appears to be formed of units which spend the night at Dorking working down empty from Selhurst the night before - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W77174/2013/10/29/advanced.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, we have even more likely confusion over first class on the 377/6s than the rest of the 377 fleet! No yellow band, combined with a lack of "1" stickers sounds like a planning catastrophe - may people don't even seem to know that first class is first class on the existing fleet, judging by the numbers of standard class ticket holders that use them!

Regarding First Class. In my experiance on existing units its only the headrest cover that makes me think perhaps I am in the wrong place (being a tight fisted SECOND Class traveller). The yellow line outside is only of use to those looking for their First class seats. I think it is too early to tell what the final first class marking will be. Only a week ago there was no indication or need to. Its only appeared since the 377/6s started on the East Grinstead services.

I do notice that the seats etc in First class are nothing special but imho the reason people pay for first class is to get a seat rather than risk standing. Ignoring intercity. Twenty years ago the season ticket for First class was not that much more expensive than the Second class season ticket (South Central East Croydon to London).

 

[JonathanH]

It does seem to be the case that the 377/6s are not directly replacing the 456s. So it is not possible to compare coach for coach.

Currently, from what I have seen, the 377/6s are being used in pairs to replace 377s that are formed 3+3+4 car. The 3 car 377s then seem to replace 456s. I am going to assume that 3+3 car 377s replace 2*456s (2+2 car). So one pair of 377s (10 coaches) INDIRECTLY replace one pair of 456s (4 coaches). The other 6 coaches are a 4car 377 going somewhere and 2 car lengthening. So that means that the 24 456s are replaced by 24 377/6s.

The above is a bit of a wild guess I confess. But the whole point of the 377/6s is to facilitate extension of the 8 car metro routes to 10 car is it not ?.

The 377 services that have been formed 3+3+4 car were not always so. They used to be 455+455 or often 455+456+456. Six car trains were 455+456 or quite often 456+456+456. Showing my ignorance here but how long have there been 10-car services ? These seem to be 377 services (3+3+4 car) ?. Last time I was paying attention I only saw the 377/3s working on their own and sometimes as 12 car services !. Certainly not mixed with 4-car 377s on Metro services.

I also notice some other changes to diagramming seem to mean that Southern are not having to diagram so tightly. Perhaps to make use of the extra stock they have.

The suggestion in the other thread is that 6-377/3 has replaced 455+456 or 3-456 with consequent loss of seats. That would leave a spare 4-coach 377 in each case. The 10-coach trains formed 3+3+4 have been in that formation since December 2012.

There appears to be one more 3+3+4 to replace with a pair of 377/6s, that is a Purley / Tattenham starter which combines at Purley at 0801.

Presumably, they then have to start replacing 8-car trains with 10-377/6 formations.

In the December 2012 diagrams, there were three 12-coach trains formed of four 377/3s, one to/from Horsham (1759 from London Bridge) and two to/from East Grinstead (1816 from London Bridge and 1823 from Victoria) in each peak. There was also one 11-coach train on the East Grinstead line. It would be interesting to see whether the spare 4 coach 377s replace one of these.

Some of the tight diagramming (eg metro services interworking with suburbans) is down to the reduced platforms at London Bridge as well as squeezing the maximum level of use out of the fleet.

 

[Deepgreen]

The fleet is in the middle of being commissioned and introduced in service so any comments are jumping the gun. Wait a few months when things have settled down rather than jumping to conclusions.


Surely the whole point of commissioning is to 'shake down' issues such as door defects, information screen failures, etc., so that when the units enter service, they are reliable?
I also cannot understand why Southern appear still to be deciding how to allocate first class, etc., at this very late stage - given the long experience they now have with the 377 family, this should all have been settled long ago. If the regime is going to be one where the same accommodation is going to be treated as standard or first class according to each specific journey/diagram undertaken, that is going to be even worse than the present mess.

 

[Class377/5]

Surely the whole point of commissioning is to 'shake down' issues such as door defects, information screen failures, etc., so that when the units enter service, they are reliable?
I also cannot understand why Southern appear still to be deciding how to allocate first class, etc., at this very late stage - given the long experience they now have with the 377 family, this should all have been settled long ago. If the regime is going to be one where the same accommodation is going to be treated as standard or first class according to each specific journey/diagram undertaken, that is going to be even worse than the present mess.

Commissioning does not allow for driver and passenger interaction but just getting the unit running.

One in service things like coupling are properly tested. Don't forget the early failure rate of units when first introduced. The 377/6 are different enough with new generation hardware and software which reduces confidence in the units.

As for the first class issue well here the units were ordered with ability to have first class. I remember pointing out the first class doors in the mock ups and was told it's an error and just a Southern livery slapped on a 379 model.

It's that Southern have decided to implement first class recently as Southern was saying only a couple of months ago to that the first class want to be used. The other point is it worth having different seats on the 377/6 a they will work Metro more than anything and be declassified anyway.

What will be curious is will the 377/7 have the yellow strip when built and different seats as they need first class working the Milton Keynes services that they will do daily.

 

[Deepgreen]

Commissioning does not allow for driver and passenger interaction but just getting the unit running.

One in service things like coupling are properly tested. Don't forget the early failure rate of units when first introduced. The 377/6 are different enough with new generation hardware and software which reduces confidence in the units.

As for the first class issue well here the units were ordered with ability to have first class. I remember pointing out the first class doors in the mock ups and was told it's an error and just a Southern livery slapped on a 379 model.

It's that Southern have decided to implement first class recently as Southern was saying only a couple of months ago to that the first class want to be used. The other point is it worth having different seats on the 377/6 a they will work Metro more than anything and be declassified anyway.

What will be curious is will the 377/7 have the yellow strip when built and different seats as they need first class working the Milton Keynes services that they will do daily.

I believe that commissioning SHOULD deal with hardware and software issues that have not been picked up in design and construction. What happened to the requirement for 5000 miles of trouble-free running before entering service? If the only thing that entails is the unit not actually failing to move, then it's a wasted opportunity to resolve bugs.

As I said, the first class issue is simply a mess. Southern have never got this right with their stock since the slam-door replacements were being designed and specified. For the 377/6s there has been no apparent planning/decision-making resulting in a lack of clarity and a worsening enforcement problem.

 

[Class377/5]

I believe that commissioning SHOULD deal with hardware and software issues that have not been picked up in design and construction. What happened to the requirement for 5000 miles of trouble-free running before entering service? If the only thing that entails is the unit not actually failing to move, then it's a wasted opportunity to resolve bugs.

As I said, the first class issue is simply a mess. Southern have never got this right with their stock since the slam-door replacements were being designed and specified. For the 377/6s there has been no apparent planning/decision-making resulting in a lack of clarity and a worsening enforcement problem.

There is no such requirement of 5000. It's 1,500 fault free running. More if it's a dual voltage units as you need to double the running. Of course your reply shows the issue with commissioning units is simple running not failing in service.

As for the bugs that what fleet introduction is all about. You can't test things like passenger interaction properly anyway.

First class provision is a result of other companies with Southern have simply continued on with the DfT's blessing. Remember that there are things behind the scenes being arranged. You may find that the reason for the 377/6 now getting first class is connected to the 377/2 transferring to Thameslink, something that wasn't an option when the units were ordered. Things change

 

[Deepgreen]

There is no such requirement of 5000. It's 1,500 fault free running. More if it's a dual voltage units as you need to double the running. Of course your reply shows the issue with commissioning units is simple running not failing in service.

Thanks for the correction - I had thought it was 5,000 miles.

As for the bugs that what fleet introduction is all about. You can't test things like passenger interaction properly anyway.

I was referring to things such as the information systems not working, inter-connecting doors not working, etc., (as reported in an earlier post) rather than anything to do with passenger influence.

First class provision is a result of other companies with Southern have simply continued on with the DfT's blessing. Remember that there are things behind the scenes being arranged. You may find that the reason for the 377/6 now getting first class is connected to the 377/2 transferring to Thameslink, something that wasn't an option when the units were ordered. Things change

Partly agreed, but Southern have had many years to make their first class more in line with a general expectation of a superior quality to standard, and a major refurbishment programme is being allowed to pass with nothing being done.

 

[joeykins82]

Personally my only expectation of first class in a suburban/commuter service is a guarantee of a seat in a configuration no denser than 2+2 in an area where standing isn't permitted. Southern don't run any routes of significant enough distance to warrant a big investment in first class (as opposed to, say, SWT who run through to Weymouth and Exeter).

 

[Peter Sarf]

The 377/6 is a relatively new design of train as it has different software to marry it to its class 379 mechanics - its not a 377 really. With any new design of train there are various ways of looking at testing versus reliability etc.

First level of testing is to see if the DESIGN works. This is done before many are built. Sometimes as a result of testing things are changed or retrofitted on the other examples already built. It has to be said that some design weaknesses become apparent too late - for example stress cracks around openings on 158s became obvious after many years.

Then the trains get commissioned. This is basically a test to see if the individual train/unit was put together correctly. Siemens do this on a test track. Quite often this testing is done on live railways in the case of the 377/6s South Eastern lines to Tonbridge (iirc). Then once past the commissioning hurdle a train/unit is accepted into service.

In service. The reality is some problems will raise their ugly heads once the trains are in service. This might be because of the way passengers interact, could be due to rail conditions (say a new design really sulks in snow or leaves) or some other unforeseen problem.

The train fleet will climb up a reliability curve once in service. It is unrealistic to expect NO problems at all once a train is commissioned. Some problems could have been designed out or maybe a manufacturing process was not right. Eventually these kinds of failures reduce and later are dwarfed by the general wear and tear failures as time goes by.

Every new train is unreliable at first and its just a matter of how quickly they get to be reliable. that is regardless of the design.

Same happens with cars.

The class 458s have become VERY reliable. But now they are having an extra coach added people are waiting to see how far the reliability slips back and for how long.

Southern are prudent enough to want spare trains around particularly when they have got relatively new trains on their busy network. Its a fool that believes nothing should go wrong so dose not plan contingencies for it.