377/6

[Deepgreen]

Personally my only expectation of first class in a suburban/commuter service is a guarantee of a seat in a configuration no denser than 2+2 in an area where standing isn't permitted. Southern don't run any routes of significant enough distance to warrant a big investment in first class (as opposed to, say, SWT who run through to Weymouth and Exeter).

You have a valid point, but Southern's first is so very similar to std. that many people don't even notice, or care, and it often ends up nearly as crowded anyway, especially on those 377s without internal doors. As for standing - if it's crowded, people will stand in first without a second thought (and without any penalty, whereas seated passengers will be charged by inspectors if caught). I don't think it needs a big investment - when the refurbs. were being done the seats could have been upgraded and the carpets changed, if only to make it look different to std. Clearer signing would certainly make a difference to accidental occupation, too.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On the subject of class. I cannot help thinking that the 377/6s were expected to do Metro routes only and these do not have first class. There are announcements on Metro services advising that "Standard" class ticket holders can use the First Class seating. It maybe that some/all of the 377/3s lose their first class. Perhaps the use of 377/6s on East Grinstead services was not originally planned. Maybe it had not been decided how much would be first class as the position of the dividing doors means it could have been the other half of the same end coach (20 or 24 seats iirc versus the actual 36). As I have said before it appears the 377/6s have more first class than earlier 4-car 377s (I know some at least are 10 each end). That's 7.2 seats per 377/6 coach versus 5 seats per 377(4car) coach !. Pinching myself.

What puzzles me is that I was on an East Croydon to Milton Keynes service recently and the automatic announcement said that we could use First class. This makes me wonder if the 377/7s will have first class ?. I thought the route was too long distance to be without First class. Have to say that the unit seemed to lose our location North of Clapham Junction so perhaps it assumed we were Metro ?. I quite often see the display saying next station Wembley Central even as the train leaves Harrow and Wealdstone anyway.On the subject of class. I cannot help thinking that the 377/6s were expected to do Metro routes only and these do not have first class. There are announcements on Metro trains advising that "Standard" class ticket holders can use the First Class seating.

 

[Class377/5]

There is to be a pair of 377/6 on Brighton runs on Saturday doing the following

0749 Brighton - Victoria
0906 Victoria - Brighton
1019 Brighton - Victoria
1136 Victoria - Brighton
1249 Brighton - Victoria
1406 Victoria - Brighton
1519 Brighton - Victoria
1636 Victoria - Brighton
1749 Brighton - Victoria
1906 Victoria - Brighton
2019 Brighton - Victoria
2136 Victoria - Brighton

EDIT:

Looks like these trips are replacing 442's. Not great.

Partly agreed, but Southern have had many years to make their first class more in line with a general expectation of a superior quality to standard, and a major refurbishment programme is being allowed to pass with nothing being done.

Units on the Southern region first class has never been that good in recent years but the question is with such lacking facilities and pressing demand is there any point as its not really an upgrade.

As for your points over internal doors and pa not working, ride around on the rest of the Electrostar fleet and you'll discover these problems don't go away with time.

On the subject of class. I cannot help thinking that the 377/6s were expected to do Metro routes only and these do not have first class. There are announcements on Metro trains advising that "Standard" class ticket holders can use the First Class seating.

What puzzles me is that I was on an East Croydon to Milton Keynes service recently and the automatic announcement said that we could use First class. This makes me wonder if the 377/7s will have first class ?. I thought the route was too long distance for that. Have to say that the unit seemed to lose our location North of Clapham Junction so perhaps it assumed we were Metro. I quite often see the display saying next station Wembley Central even as the train leaves Harrow and Wealdstone anyway.

All metro routes are declassified on the London area. So the Milton Keynes service magically gets first class at Wembley I believe.

 

[Peter Sarf]

All metro routes are declassified on the London area. So the Milton Keynes service magically gets first class at Wembley I believe.

Ooo That's a good way of catching people out. Excuse me inspector but I got on this to travel to Clapham junction and fell asleep (last night ). Thanks for the explanation.

Thanks for the diagram btw.

 

[Class377/5]

Ooo That's a good way of catching people out. Excuse me inspector but I got on this to travel to Clapham junction and fell asleep (last night ). Thanks for the explanation.

Thanks for the diagram btw.

The PIS **should** announce the change, but your right its easy to be caught out.

The diagram come straight from the source. I might try and caught the unit at some point during the day.

 

[TEW]

One of the reason that First Class seems to have been put in so suddenly is the previously unannounced working of 377/6s to East Grinstead. So far the 377/6s have only replaced what were already 10 car workings, which wasn't the original plan. It may even happen that these workings go back to other types of 377s, especially the East Grinstead workings. The routes the 377/6s are intended for, services via Balham, are not, AFAIK, yet comissioned for 10 car workings. It would be possible to run the 377/6s as 5-cars on those routes but that would mean a huge reduction in capacity. They seem to be used on their current workings because they're the only available 10-car workings at the moment, and there's obviously a desire to get the units in service. Come December when 10-car platforms via Balham are comissioned I'd expect the fleet to move to their intended Metro services on these routes. It will be interesting so see what other diagrams the 377/6s will be put on until then as there must be a fairly limited number of London area diagrams suitable for 10-car services yet. Possibly fast peak services to Tattenham and Caterham, dividing at Purley, would be suitable.

 

[joeykins82]

I'm sure I've been on evening peak services from Victoria to London Bridge via Streatham Hill that have been 10-car (formed of 2x 455 and a 456). Do you know which via Balham routes are still undergoing platform extensions?

 

[hwl]

I'm sure I've been on evening peak services from Victoria to London Bridge via Streatham Hill that have been 10-car (formed of 2x 455 and a 456). Do you know which via Balham routes are still undergoing platform extensions?

Via Streatham Hill for starters as the extensions at Gipsy Hill aren't in use (virtually finished but hoardings still there). West Norwood isn't being extended so requires SDO for 10 car services which 455 and 456s don't have...

 

[joeykins82]

I probably didn't run far enough down the train then!

 

[john-]

I'm sure I've been on evening peak services from Victoria to London Bridge via Streatham Hill that have been 10-car (formed of 2x 455 and a 456). Do you know which via Balham routes are still undergoing platform extensions?

The extension bits are still cordoned off on almost all extended platforms as far as selhurst and beyond via west croydon. Most look like they are completed really.

john

 

[southern442]

Partly agreed, but Southern have had many years to make their first class more in line with a general expectation of a superior quality to standard, and a major refurbishment programme is being allowed to pass with nothing being done.

So have southeastern, with at least two refurbishments they should have done something. The introduction of newer 377/4s and 5s have slightly improved first class, and the 377/3 refurb brought bigger table in first.

 

[bicbasher]

Via Streatham Hill for starters as the extensions at Gipsy Hill aren't in use (virtually finished but hoardings still there). West Norwood isn't being extended so requires SDO for 10 car services which 455 and 456s don't have...

Safe to say I think that the Sydenham line will get 4tph 377/6 during the peaks with the outer SLL services also becoming 10 car from December.

 

[TEW]

I didn't think the 377/3 refurb brought bigger tables in First, just that the tables in Standard were reduced to half tables. The 377/4s and /5s are better in some ways in that First is separated better from Standard and you get a plug socket but might also end up with a rubbish inward facing seat.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't think I have ever encountered a 10-car 455 and/or 456 combination.

I noted 377609 and 377604 on the East Grinstead diagram - that was about 18:30 yesterday Thursday 31/10/2013. EDIT - That was at Clapham Junction.

 

[southern442]

I didn't think the 377/3 refurb brought bigger tables in First, just that the tables in Standard were reduced to half tables. The 377/4s and /5s are better in some ways in that First is separated better from Standard and you get a plug socket but might also end up with a rubbish inward facing seat.

Yes, you are right, I just imagined that they were all small before the refub.

Some people seem to like the inward facing seats, as quite a few people are in those ones when the table ones aren't taken. Personally they make for quite cosy journeys when all other seats are taken.

 

[john-]

The extension bits are still cordoned off on almost all extended platforms as far as selhurst and beyond via west croydon. Most look like they are completed really.

Correction, these have been removed very recently (apart from at Thornton Heath on the down slow, but there is an access-way between the track and a yard behind the platform in the newly built bit).

john

 

[southern442]

Correction, these have been removed very recently (apart from at Thornton Heath on the down slow, but there is an access-way between the track and a yard behind the platform in the newly built bit).

john

Does this mean that they will start working earlier than December?

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, you are right, I just imagined that they were all small before the refub.

Some people seem to like the inward facing seats, as quite a few people are in those ones when the table ones aren't taken. Personally they make for quite cosy journeys when all other seats are taken.

The inward seats are much more spacious than other seats with space either side of the arm rests.

 

[louis97]

There is to be a pair of 377/6 on Brighton runs on Saturday doing the following

0749 Brighton - Victoria
0906 Victoria - Brighton
1019 Brighton - Victoria
1136 Victoria - Brighton
1249 Brighton - Victoria
1406 Victoria - Brighton
1519 Brighton - Victoria
1636 Victoria - Brighton
1749 Brighton - Victoria
1906 Victoria - Brighton
2019 Brighton - Victoria
2136 Victoria - Brighton

Any idea if a 377/6 diagram will be operating on 9th November? (Haywards Heath to Brighton is being replaced by buses all day, so I guess not?)

 

[Class377/5]

Any idea if a 377/6 diagram will be operating on 9th November? (Haywards Heath to Brighton is being replaced by buses all day, so I guess not?)

I don't know sorry. The diagram was posted on yahoo group by someone in the know.

EDIT:

377621 reported as leaving Derby last night.

 

[Crossforth]

I don't suppose these have been out on Sundays?

Thinking of going to London tomorrow and wondering if we can go spy some 377/6s

 

[TEW]

They haven't been yet, but then none had been out on Saturdays before today, and three ventured out. One pair on the Brighton diagram posted above and a single unit on a Metro diagram visiting Caterham, Sutton, Epsom and London Victoria-London Bridge via Crystal Palace, the workings the units are actually intended for.

 

[JonathanH]

They haven't been yet, but then none had been out on Saturdays before today, and three ventured out. One pair on the Brighton diagram posted above and a single unit on a Metro diagram visiting Caterham, Sutton, Epsom and London Victoria-London Bridge via Crystal Palace, the workings the units are actually intended for.

The working that 377606 did was still one which is out and back from Selhurst. For the record, I think this is it based on others observations and matching up platform numbers in realtimetrains.

5S07 07+15 Selhurst Depot to Norwood Junction 07+22
2S07 0723 Norwood Junction to London Victoria 0753
2R18 0803 London Victoria to Sutton 0846 (via Norbury)
2R27 0852 Sutton to London Victoria 0934 (via Norbury)
2F12 0949 London Victoria to London Bridge 1041 (via Crystal Palace)
2F13 1052 London Bridge to London Victoria 1139 (via Crystal Palace)
2E40 1147 London Victoria to Epsom 1229 (via Mitcham Junction)
5E40 12+33 Epsom to Epsom Down Sidings 12+35
5E47 12+41 Epsom Down Sidings to Epsom 12+43
2E47 1249 Epsom to London Victoria 1330 (via Mitcham Junction)
2Y01 1343 London Victoria to Caterham 1435
2P47 1456 Caterham to London Victoria 1546
2R80 1553 London Victoria to Epsom 1652 (via Norbury)
5R80 16+54 Epsom to Epsom Down Sidings 16+56
5E47 17+01 Epsom Down Sidings to Epsom 17+03
2R93 1704 Epsom to London Victoria 1758 (via Norbury)
2S52 1806 London Victoria to Sutton 1856 (via Crystal Palace)
2S03 1903 Sutton to London Victoria 1953 (via Crystal Palace)
2R14 2003 London Victoria to Sutton 2046 (via Norbury)
2R23 2052 Sutton to London Victoria 2134 (via Norbury)
2F62 2149 London Victoria to London Bridge 2241 (via Crystal Palace)
2F61 2252 London Bridge to London Victoria 2341 (via Crystal Palace)
2R44 2351 London Victoria to Sutton 0034 (via Norbury)
5R44 00+52 Sutton to Selhurst Depot 01+22

An out and back duty from Selhurst would seem to be where the greatest chance of a Sunday working could arise.

 

[12CSVT]

The working that 377606 did was still one which is out and back from Selhurst. For the record, I think this is it based on others observations and matching up platform numbers in realtimetrains.

5S07 07+15 Selhurst Depot to Norwood Junction 07+22
2S07 0723 Norwood Junction to London Victoria 0753
2R18 0803 London Victoria to Sutton 0846 (via Norbury)
2R27 0852 Sutton to London Victoria 0934 (via Norbury)
2F12 0949 London Victoria to London Bridge 1041 (via Crystal Palace)
2F13 1052 London Bridge to London Victoria 1139 (via Crystal Palace)
2E40 1147 London Victoria to Epsom 1229 (via Mitcham Junction)
5E40 12+33 Epsom to Epsom Down Sidings 12+35
5E47 12+41 Epsom Down Sidings to Epsom 12+43
2E47 1249 Epsom to London Victoria 1330 (via Mitcham Junction)
2Y01 1343 London Victoria to Caterham 1435
2P47 1456 Caterham to London Victoria 1546
2R80 1553 London Victoria to Epsom 1652 (via Norbury)
5R80 16+54 Epsom to Epsom Down Sidings 16+56
5E47 17+01 Epsom Down Sidings to Epsom 17+03
2R93 1704 Epsom to London Victoria 1758 (via Norbury)
2S52 1806 London Victoria to Sutton 1856 (via Crystal Palace)
2S03 1903 Sutton to London Victoria 1953 (via Crystal Palace)
2R14 2003 London Victoria to Sutton 2046 (via Norbury)
2R23 2052 Sutton to London Victoria 2134 (via Norbury)
2F62 2149 London Victoria to London Bridge 2241 (via Crystal Palace)
2F61 2252 London Bridge to London Victoria 2341 (via Crystal Palace)
2R44 2351 London Victoria to Sutton 0034 (via Norbury)
5R44 00+52 Sutton to Selhurst Depot 01+22

An out and back duty from Selhurst would seem to be where the greatest chance of a Sunday working could arise.

Is this a normal Saturday diagram, or was this diagram devised to enable 377606 to work as many routes as possible over the course of one day ?

 

[TEW]

That is a normal Saturday diagram, it's been a 455 previously.

 

[Crossforth]

377604 has been to Victoria today but apparently went back to Selhurst with brake issues. A friend saw it at Victoria and a member of Southern staff spoke to us who is involved in the commissioning of the 377/6s and said they have a huge list of issues still to be resolved.

 

[Class377/5]

377604 has been to Victoria today but apparently went back to Selhurst with brake issues. A friend saw it at Victoria and a member of Southern staff spoke to us who is involved in the commissioning of the 377/6s and said they have a huge list of issues still to be resolved.

It was showing up in the system as going Stewards Lane yesterday.

377621 should arrive at Stewarts Lane in the morning with another drag booked for tues night.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Bombardier products not working too well out of the box? I couldn't have foreseen this :P

What are the consequences if deliveries are delayed by say a month?

 

[Deepgreen]

377604 has been to Victoria today but apparently went back to Selhurst with brake issues. A friend saw it at Victoria and a member of Southern staff spoke to us who is involved in the commissioning of the 377/6s and said they have a huge list of issues still to be resolved.

Attached shows 604 arriving at East Croydon for East Grinstead on 1 November. Seemed to be slowing down OK to me!

 

[Peter Sarf]

377604 has been to Victoria today but apparently went back to Selhurst with brake issues. A friend saw it at Victoria and a member of Southern staff spoke to us who is involved in the commissioning of the 377/6s and said they have a huge list of issues still to be resolved.

I have seen a number of 377/6s in service and had a few brief chats with drivers. Never got the impression that they had problems with them except only one driver said his example perhaps accelerated slower.

I would be worried if trains had NO braking problems at the moment as it is the leaf-fall season. I suspect there are a number of OTHER non 377/6 units laid up with a massive list of problems - wheel flats.

I have updated my list - btw. Thats 14 delivered with seven of them seen in service. Probably another in service by now ?. Only eight left to be delivered !.