225s upgrade

[Peter Mugridge]

I'd prefer different seats in the Mallard, really can't get comfortable in them..

I agree; the original seats in the Mk4 were rather more comfortable than the current seats; the only thing wrong with the original interior was the silly glass partitions.

 

[DarloRich]

Past performance based on what? The nearest precedent that we have in this country for a high speed train made by Hitachi is the class 395, which I think are very good trains. Yet still, how can you have "past performance" from a product that has not yet been built?

I mean past performance on all of the recent train builds. I especially mean the Voyager and the Pendolino which are direct replacements for Intercity stock. Why have none of them surpassed a MKIII or MKIV in terms of comfort? If we had a fleet of super comfortable new trains I would have less cynicism and more belief in the designers. We dont, so i dont!

I suspect very strongly that the IEP will be a sub Voyager bodge up. Anyway, I dont think the 395's are that comfortable. While the speed is high I find the seats thin and the comfort low.

 

[JamesRowden]

...and implementation of in-cab signalling on all stock running on the line, and probably moving block too. Personally, I'm skeptical that we'll see anything other than HSx lines faster than 125mph for quite some time.

Following the present upgrade the Great Western Mainline will have the signalling systems required to allow high speed operation (above 125 mph).

 

[Harbon 1]

Business class, first class, first class table detail, standard class, digital reservation detail.

Please no!

They're horrible, it's a train, not a private jet! What's with all the black? Its gonna make the interiors glum and dark. And they don't exactly look comfy! I really hope they keep the mallard seats. Won't EC dislike the idea of having to order bits for two completely different design of seats anyway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Following the present upgrade the Great Western Mainline will have the signalling systems required to allow high speed operation (above 125 mph).

Will it? Im not too sure, because then every train that wants to go anywhere on it would have to be fitted with the new system. Like the Cambrian(?) Coast Line in Wales

 

[JamesRowden]

Please no!
Will it? Im not too sure, because then every train that wants to go anywhere on it would have to be fitted with the new system. Like the Cambrian(?) Coast Line in Wales

Only trains that travel faster than 125 mph would need the incab signalling, trains travelling slower would be able to use the lineside signals.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's getting ETCS overlaid with conventional signalling until 2025 when it's expected that the conventional signalling will be removed.

 

[LE Greys]

Please no!

They're horrible, it's a train, not a private jet! What's with all the black? Its gonna make the interiors glum and dark. And they don't exactly look comfy! I really hope they keep the mallard seats. Won't EC dislike the idea of having to order bits for two completely different design of seats anyway?

Aren't the insides of ICEs a very similar colour scheme? Mind you, they are also surprisingly comfortable, considering our most recent German purchases (actually Czech-built) have planks covered with a thin blanket.

 

[Harbon 1]

Aren't the insides of ICEs a very similar colour scheme? Mind you, they are also surprisingly comfortable, considering our most recent German purchases (actually Czech-built) have planks covered with a thin blanket.

The planks are fine for commuter trains, but not for travelling on them for unto 4 hours, on carriages that don't exactly have the best suspension in the world to start with

 

[dstrat]

A concept animation of the Mark 4 rebuild, showing the galley in the DVT as well as the buisness class, first class, standard class and premier class.

http://www.eversholtrail.co.uk/MKIV.html

Looks O.K. in my opinion, but not great. Hopefully the seats can be more aligned to the windows though. And as for premier class... It is totally unnecessary and a complete waste of space.

Ahahahah that 'premier' service is absolutely batty - just who decided on that! I mean, there is no need for trains to simply be cattle trucks but you are taking the michael putting in those six silly swivvely seat things.

 

[HSTEd]

A concept animation of the Mark 4 rebuild, showing the galley in the DVT as well as the buisness class, first class, standard class and premier class.

http://www.eversholtrail.co.uk/MKIV.html

Looks O.K. in my opinion, but not great. Hopefully the seats can be more aligned to the windows though. And as for premier class... It is totally unnecessary and a complete waste of space.

Riiight.


Is it just more is 'Premium Class' primarily what standard should be?
4G/WiFi enabled, inductive phone charging and plug sockets for all should be the standard really....

Basically its an excuse to downgrade standard further.

And I imagine there are all sorts of problems with relocating the galley to the DVT...

 

[The Ham]

And I imagine there are all sorts of problems with relocating the galley to the DVT...

Like where are the bikes going to go?

 

[MCR247]

never mind

 

[E-Rail]

I agree; the original seats in the Mk4 were rather more comfortable than the current seats; the only thing wrong with the original interior was the silly glass partitions.

Thank god, I'm not not alone after all. The Chapman seats used for the Mallard rebuilds are shockingly uncomfortable. Yeah, they look good but they are too low slung and too shallow for comfort. They are top of their class for 'numb bums' due to the curvature between base and back and the plastics seem to be wearing very badly. I've never tried the Chapman First Class seats but they appear to be almost identical in design but for being wider and having the recline option.

The original IC225 seats were well raked, well positioned and their lower back height allowed a view around the carriage and out the windows. I'm pretty sure the airline tables were larger than the Chapmans too. The full size tables were certainly wider. The spacing of the luggage racks originally was far superior also with mid coach storage.

I know they weren't popular but I also liked the smoked glass partitions. They improved the ambience and helped to zone the carriage and 'localise' noiser groups or families.

The GNER refurbishment would have looked great and been comfortable if they had kept the original layout (whilst allowing for DDA improvements) but just refoamed, retrimmed and powder coated the original seats in the colour scheme chosen for Mallard and replaced the carpets, lighting and luggage racks etc.

 

[dstrat]

Is there any particular reason for the high backed seats on fast rolling stock nowadays?

As in to reduce injury suffered from being launched through the carriage in the event of a catastrophic derail?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there any particular reason for the high backed seats on fast rolling stock nowadays?

As in to reduce injury suffered from being launched through the carriage in the event of a catastrophic derail?

The reason is the one you've identified it's related to modern crash regulations, not only for that, but also to try and combat whiplash injuries.

 

[starrymarkb]

and also to provide survival space if the roof is compromised. Similarly new seat backs are designed to bend rather then break (Shrapnal from IC70s was found to cause very nasty injuries in the Southall, Ladbroke and Ufton Nervet derailments)

 

[ainsworth74]

and also to provide survival space if the roof is compromised.

Yes wasn't someone saved by the seats providing survival space when that cement mixer fell on a train a year or so ago?

 

[E-Rail]

Comfort aside, I can't help but think that submarining could be an issue with the Mallard Chapmans in the event of a rapid deceleration. The squabs are completely horizontal.

 

[DarloRich]

here is a picture, not mine, of the twin pantograph arrangement

http://www.flickr.com/photos/penske666photography/8270231406/in/contacts/

 

[ash39]

Finally saw it today, by chance at Doncaster station. Unfortunate that it wasn't York or somewhere I could get on a footbridge, but got some photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ash_3939/8295520188/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ash_3939/8295506860/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ash_3939/8294460099/

 

[Bridge189]

I was told GNER were dead set on wanting to move the kitchen to the DVT when mallard was done but it never materialised. I presume its to create a pendo/voyager style roll on roll off area in the former kitchen for bikes and oversized luggage instead of having to get platform staff to assist with this on the out of public bounds DVT which can only be used for luggage if they said items are being detrained at major stations.

It's worth noting at this point that mallard looked totally different in the end after all the speculation, if only the bar was as spacious as that!

http://www.jpadesign.com/transport/project/21

So will this make the MK4s the first UK intercity train to undergo two major refurbishments?

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I mean past performance on all of the recent train builds. I especially mean the Voyager and the Pendolino which are direct replacements for Intercity stock. Why have none of them surpassed a MKIII or MKIV in terms of comfort? If we had a fleet of super comfortable new trains I would have less cynicism and more belief in the designers. We dont, so i dont!

I suspect very strongly that the IEP will be a sub Voyager bodge up. Anyway, I dont think the 395's are that comfortable. While the speed is high I find the seats thin and the comfort low.

Designers can ruin any train if they choose uncomfortable seats, cram in too many, and then finish off with an unpleasant colour scheme and bad lighting.

After getting the ride quality and heating and ventilation system right, the prerequisites for a comfortable train are having the right window spacing and position, and optimising the cross-sectional profile. The latter means that the floor should not be at the right height, not too high or too low, and in turn optimising the length of the vehicle. The spacing of windows on the class 395 stock makes it impossible to achieve good window alignment on the majority of seats, though most have some kind of a view out.

If you want to travel in a spacious comfortable train, the nearest things available are the Danish IC3.

 

[ainsworth74]

Length issues around IEP have been discussed, in depth, on a thread that can be found here. I have moved a couple of off-topic posts to it and I am therefore requesting that this thread remain for discussion relating the the proposed IC225 upgrades and anything directly relevant to that.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Are we talking about a pantograph similar to this one?

Photo here

Or will it just be the same pantograph that they use but two of them instead of the one?

That is the old diamond pattern. They seem to be slowly disappearing and being replaced by the type that looks like a letter V on its side, though these came in during the 1960s.

 

[ainsworth74]

They seem to be slowly disappearing and being replaced by the type that looks like a letter V on its side, though these came in during the 1960s.

I don't know about elsewhere but there's nothing slow about it here. As far as I'm aware they're extinct in the UK on service trains (I'm sure some example still exist on preserved locos/units) in favour of Brecknell Willis High Speed/Low Level and Stone Faiveley AMBR (also Faiveley Grand Plongeur Unique as found on Eurostar). Like I say maybe it's different on the continent but diamond type pantographs no longer exist in the UK.

 

[LE Greys]

I don't know about elsewhere but there's nothing slow about it here. As far as I'm aware they're extinct in the UK on service trains (I'm sure some example still exist on preserved locos/units) in favour of Brecknell Willis High Speed/Low Level and Stone Faiveley AMBR (also Faiveley Grand Plongeur Unique as found on Eurostar). Like I say maybe it's different on the continent but diamond type pantographs no longer exist in the UK.

AIUI, the last locos in service with a diamond pantograph (which is actually why it gained the name 'pantograph', after the drawing implement) were the 87s, but they were all replaced with a Brecknell-Willis to allow them to do 110. Currently, everything has a 'half-pantograph', unless you count the ones on top of Ariadne in the NRM. I don't think there are other survivors.

 

[HSTEd]

AIUI, the last locos in service with a diamond pantograph (which is actually why it gained the name 'pantograph', after the drawing implement) were the 87s, but they were all replaced with a Brecknell-Willis to allow them to do 110. Currently, everything has a 'half-pantograph', unless you count the ones on top of Ariadne in the NRM. I don't think there are other survivors.

Whats the 1500V locomotive they have in the Manchester Institute of Science and Technology?
The one still wearing NS colours.

 

[LE Greys]

Whats the 1500V locomotive they have in the Manchester Institute of Science and Technology?
The one still wearing NS colours.

I've also forgotten 26020, also at York. You may be thinking of 26039, which IIRC is a cab rather than an entire loco.

 

[HSTEd]

I've also forgotten 26020, also at York. You may be thinking of 26039, which IIRC is a cab rather than an entire loco.

Apparently MOSI (not MIST ) has Ariadne.

 

[yorksrob]

Isn't three full refurbs for a carriage a bit much ?

I'm sure a facelift of the Mk 4's would suffice.