22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[Whistler40145]

You could run two sets of 185s to Skipton and split, one going forward to Glasgow and the other going to Morecambe and Lancaster.

 

[Townsend Hook]

If the 185s are overpowered for most routes, why not just match them with a demotored 442 trailer set?

I'll get me coat..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the 185s are overpowered for most routes.

Hence the logic in using them on non-electrified routes with the type of terrain to be so traversed that the Class 185 units can use their power on to good effect.

 

[Whistler40145]

I thought 185s had the ability to shut down an engine when total power output isn't required?

 

[D365]

Yes, but that doesn't do anything for their excess mass.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where suggestion had been made in past times for reducing a Class 185 unit to two coaches, surely one of those coaches would still have most of its capacity taken up by the first class section.

 

[Whistler40145]

And no doubt the lavatory

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where suggestion had been made in past times for reducing a Class 185 unit to two coaches, surely one of those coaches would still have most of its capacity taken up by the first class section.

Seats and partitions can be swapped easily, it'd take maybe a day per unit.

 

[The Ham]

Where suggestion had been made in past times for reducing a Class 185 unit to two coaches, surely one of those coaches would still have most of its capacity taken up by the first class section.

Whenever I had suggested it, the 2 coach units would be standard class only.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Seats and partitions can be swapped easily, it'd take maybe a day per unit.

At which depot are all these replacement seat units and partitions stored and how many of them are there.

Have any similar seat unit and partition replacements as that proposed taken place in recent times and if so, when? Is it certain that the task could be carried out in a period of 24 hours?

 

[Bletchleyite]

At which depot are all these replacement seat units and partitions stored and how many of them are there.

Seats can be purchased off the shelf, near enough. Partitions need removing, not adding, though they could be left in place if preferred.

Have any similar seat unit and partition replacements as that proposed taken place in recent times and if so, when? Is it certain that the task could be carried out in a period of 24 hours?

I'm sure many have; many units have had seats replaced. But in any case it was a figure of speech; if it took 2 days per unit it'd still be feasible. The point was that it is not a major rebuild job as the seats are on tracks.

 

[Philip]

I'm sure a place will be found for them, which will then start a cascade. I do like the idea of using them for improving the quality of Welsh express services, allowing a cascade which would kick out Class 150s to be used for other purposes or even scrapped - the quality is certainly up to it. With 2 x 3-car you could even do something radical like increasing services by way of portion working - for instance something like hourly Manchester Airport to Llandudno *and* Holyhead, and the same to/from Cardiff, or even reinstating through working to Birmingham via the WCML.

Their being overpowered is not a major issue which has already been solved in software. If two engines are too much, just modify the software to turn off two at a time in rotation instead of one.

Unless the Manchester-South Wales is split at Cardiff, then I doubt they will end up on this route. Replacing 175s and 158s with 185s on Manchester-North Wales would reduce capacity unless they doubled up..in which case there would be too much spare capacity. Birmingham-Holyhead via Stafford may work if there aren't any MU differentials on the route, but I'd be surprised if this is reinstated given how crowded the WCML south of Crewe is.

Of course the other option is they stay with TPE and perhaps before long we'll have a half hourly South TPE service which will utilise some. They may even be needed on the North East TPE routes if the 5-car trains prove to be too short during the peak hours, in a similar way that they're still working to Scotland at the weekend currently.

 

[158756]

Of course the other option is they stay with TPE and perhaps before long we'll have a half hourly South TPE service which will utilise some. They may even be needed on the North East TPE routes if the 5-car trains prove to be too short during the peak hours, in a similar way that they're still working to Scotland at the weekend currently.

The 185s displaced from the Scotland services were always intended to stay within TPE though. These 22 will be going off lease, and half a dozen other operators will get a look at them before TPE know if they've ordered enough new trains.

I'm not sure what happened to talk of improving south TPE frequency, but it definitely isn't in the new franchise.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The big question is - not where they could go - but who can afford them ?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure many have; many units have had seats replaced. But in any case it was a figure of speech; if it took 2 days per unit it'd still be feasible. The point was that it is not a major rebuild job as the seats are on tracks.

I think there are a number of 158 sub-fleets that have had modifications to either add, remove or change the capacity of First Class sections.

The work is most probably undertaken at the same time as other jobs such as repainting, or in the case of SWT's fleet CET tank fitting, so the cycle time for the seat re-arrangement (although it could be short) is probably hidden within the overall job.

 

[Elecman]

The big question is - not where they could go - but who can afford them ?

Almost anyone as once they are off lease the ROSCO lease cost will drop like a stone until they are leased out again as having 22 units sat in warm storage is not a good business model

 

[The Ham]

Almost anyone as once they are off lease the ROSCO lease cost will drop like a stone until they are leased out again as having 22 units sat in warm storage is not a good business model

Quite, if the ROSCO doesn't have any interest for long enough they could even become cheap enough that they become cheaper (even after fuel, track access charges and maintenance costs) to run than an EMU!

It is unlikely that it would get down to Pacer prices, as if they are cheaper than an EMU then someone would probably take them, but in theory it could.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if ROSCOs will start sending perfectly serviceable but off-lease fleets for scrap, to maintain market scarcity and keep lease prices high. As I understand it they are not within the remit of ORR but I guess the Competition and Markets Authority might have something to say about that.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Why not? Porterbrook has already pulled publicity stunts scrapping mk3's with a hire-'em-or-lose-'em attitude....

 

[The Ham]

Why not? Porterbrook has already pulled publicity stunts scrapping mk3's with a hire-'em-or-lose-'em attitude....

The only reasons that I can think of (and their not a great ones) is that the 185's are relatively new and the lease won't have repaid the cost of purchase yet, so the ROSCO would probably like to see some extra income from the units.

Given the weight of them there will be a lot of DMU routes where they wouldn't be suitable as it would mean that they couldn't keep to the current timetable. As such there are only a number of routes that would (ignoring costs) be suitable, with that list getting shorter if you include capacity reasons as well.

As such it is unlikely that the 185's would make other DMU's that much cheaper to lease than they currently are. Especially as we are talking about 22 units out of the about 900 DMU units (note units not coaches) that are likely to be running in 2020 (note this does not include the 125mph class 180's or class 22x's, which add nearly a further 120 units, nor does it include any bimodal units).

Therefore I would guess that they would carry on being in service, with the ROSCO's favoring scrapping of units like the whole of the class 153's.

As an aside, if all the 153's were scrapped it would mean that TOC's always had to lease 2 coach units rather than single coaches (££££), and would reduce the total number of coaches by 70 vs the 66 that scrapping the 185's would reduce the number of coaches by (more £££ as even more of a shortage of units).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody will be scrapping 10 year old DMUs. If the 185s need modifications to fit a new role, they will be modified - significant rebuild projects like the SWT Junipers really are not out of the question - that could include reforming, adding gangways etc, and could involve removing engines, changing engines etc or even converting them to bi-mode. They have another 20 years at least of service in them, if not more.

 

[D365]

... or even converting them to bi-mode.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on there!

 

[The Ham]

Of the local stopping services run by East Midlands (ignoring for now that the 185's would probably be slightly overkill in terms of speed), how many would be possible without impacting the timetable?

Nottingham to Mansfield calling at Woodhouse/Worksop, Hucknall, Mansfield
Derby to Crewe calling at Uttoxeter, Stoke-on-Trent, Kidsgrove, Alsager
Nottingham to Matlock calling at Derby, Belper, Cromford Newark North Gate to Cleethorpes calling at Lincoln Central, Grimsby Town
Peterborough to Doncaster calling at Sleaford, Lincoln Central
Nottingham to Skegness calling at Bingham, Sleaford, Boston
Leicester to Lincoln Central calling at Ivanhoe Line Stations (Leicester - Loughborough), East Midlands Parkway, Nottingham, Newark

The reason for asking is that, in very simple terms, 22 * 185's would allow for the replacement of the 17*153's (by using the 156's and a few 158's) and possibly releasing the 158 on loan back to SWT, whilst also seeing a capacity increase on the services run by 185's vs 158's as well the potential of extra units being added to a few more services.

 

[43096]

As the 185s can't take advantage of Sprinter speed differentials they would be best used on main line services where that is less important.

I would suggest using them on the GWR services that the short HSTs are intended for: Cardiff-Bristol-Taunton-Exeter-Plymouth-Penzance. Pairs of 185s would give a good capacity uplift and the fleet size requirement almost exactly matches the 22 sets available.

 

[CosherB]

Nobody will be scrapping 10 year old DMUs. If the 185s need modifications to fit a new role, they will be modified - significant rebuild projects like the SWT Junipers really are not out of the question - that could include reforming, adding gangways etc, and could involve removing engines, changing engines etc or even converting them to bi-mode. They have another 20 years at least of service in them, if not more.

I agree that no 185s will be scrapped and that the '22' will find a new home quite easily. I have to disagree, however, with the possibility of a significant rebuild for the 185s, particularly a conversion to bi-mode. AEA have shown the way forward for bulk orders for all-new stock and, with off-the-shelf bi-modes available, I'd say a complex and costly rebuild of the 185s will be extremely unlikely. There will be sufficient demand for DMUs that the 185s will satisfy 'as is'.

 

[route:oxford]

Would they be any good on the Borders line?

An article in "The Scotsman" today notes that the 158s are performing badly on the route with "right time" arrivals dropping as low as 30% for Waverley arrivals in August.

The second lesson is that the largely single-track railway has been – predictably – plagued by unreliability due to inadequate infrastructure and the poorly-performing Class 158 trains. The proportion of “right-time” arrivals at Tweedbank has never reached 70 per cent across any one week since late last October, and across August, right-time trains at Edinburgh Waverley dropped to an average of below 30 per cent (as did Tweedbank arrivals).

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...ges-to-derail-borders-success-story-1-4221851

 

[The Ham]

Would they be any good on the Borders line?

An article in "The Scotsman" today notes that the 158s are performing badly on the route with "right time" arrivals dropping as low as 30% for Waverley arrivals in August.



http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...ges-to-derail-borders-success-story-1-4221851

It could be that they could help, due to their faster acceleration, however chances are that they wouldn't be able to use their top speed and so the benefits could still not be enough.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think its the grunt and reliability rather than acceleration angle being suggested there.

Being a new line there shouldnt be any weak structures right?

 

[Mordac]

I think its the grunt and reliability rather than acceleration angle being suggested there.

Being a new line there shouldnt be any weak structures right?

There's no differentials of any kind on the route anyway.

 

[Clansman]

Can't see the 185s going to the Borders. Top speed wouldn't be utilised, acceleration potential would not reflect the route it's serving unfortunately. There's no doubt that 185s would provide a more enhanced service, but in the longer term they are probably best served elsewhere, where they can cater for routes they were designed for in the first place. Other wise it's a waste in the technology/unique specification it has. I'm trying to work out if I'm being hypocritically ironic here, considering I suggested cascading them between Glasgow/Dumfries/Carlise/Newcastle :P

I've no doubt that changes are needed rolling stock wise, as well an in the infrastructure of the route throughout. But I can see Scotrail playing the time card between now and when the 385s arrive. Then more 170s will be put on the borders, and hopefully more services as well - considering 13 additional 170s are being retained. With the patronage forecasts way off from the past year, I'm surprised a thorough plan for strengthening the route on all fronts hasn't been discussed to much detail. I can imagine that more 170s would need to be retained to cater for demand for the foreseeable future.

As for the 185s, they would only provide a short term solution between now and 2018, of which they won't even be released from TPE.