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Waterloo to be new Sleeper train hub?

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jon0844

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Rather than have abnormally long trains, maybe the capacity of Caledonian sleepers can be increased. Instead of having the separate cabins, use the model of airline FC cabins with 'sleeperette' seating like this from Singapore Airlines -

singapore_airlines_luxury.jpg

Something like that is exactly what I think would make sleepers more viable. By all means have the really cheap seated coach, but then have the above (or similar) for standard class. Then, finally, perhaps a few cabins for people that want privacy/security/en-suite and pay a higher price for that.

The pods may be first class on a plane, but I think they'd be ideal for standard and have enough to entice the ordinary person away from a stupidly early start, or an overnight hotel stay.
 
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IanXC

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There's no need to do it at Finsbury Park, if you do that you may as well have both units run separately the whole way. I reckon it would be faster overall if you did it just outside King's Cross like this...

attachment.php


View attachment 9905

This is exactly what I had in mind! Just hangs on procuring sleeper EMUs at £2m per coach!

 

Peter Mugridge

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Not quite true, the sleeper would turn off before it got to Clapham. Its route doesn't meet the Victoria–Clapham tracks at any point (although it dives under them). So it's only Waterloo services you need to path it around.

No, it doesn't dive under them - the Sheepcote Lane Chord comes up onto the northernmost track east of Clapham Junction towards Waterloo.
 

DownSouth

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This is exactly what I had in mind! Just hangs on procuring sleeper EMUs at £2m per coach!
It could be done with locomotives, the blue portion would be propelled by the loco which hauled it into the station in the first place.

I can't imagine that they would be too expensive, it could be done efficiently if units are done as an add-on to an existing order but with a customised interior. Building bespoke hauled coaches would probably be more expensive because there is no market for it with everything shifting to units.

For what it's worth, the Indian Pacific does different iterations of this sort of thing three times on every journey (at Sydney, stopping/reversing at the Adelaide call, and at Perth) with motorail added to the mix as well. It's really quite impressive to watch it happen, the staff involved are like a well-oiled machine.
 

Tomnick

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You certainly can't do it with the present signalling - the line through Gasworks Tunnel isn't permissive, and I can't ever see changing (in a tunnel!). Are there any examples of permissive passenger lines outside stations, out of interest?

You could, I suppose, shunt the leading portion on top of the rear whilst the latter was still in the platform - if you could cope with the blockage in the station throat, and the fact that the loco would be standing well outside the platform starter.
 

madannie77

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Are you implying that there's no trains in the night? Because that isn't the case. London has a 24-hour service on First Capital Connect and Southern routes, and South West Trains run a near 24-hour service too, albeit not as frequent as the day, but even so.

Looking at a timetable to get some facts suggests to me South West Trains' 24 hour service is so good that there is a gap of 3 hours and 55 minutes between departures from Waterloo and a gap of 3 hours and 14 minutes between arrivals at Waterloo.

Not exactly an all night service, is it.
 
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pitdiver

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At the beginning of this thread one of the points mentioned was the provision of a decent lounge/waiting facility for Sleeper customers. Can I ask what are the facilities for sleeper customers on the continent and can sleepers be occupied well ahead of departure times.

Sorry about using CUSTOMER. I have been brainwashed by NX. LOL
 

swt_passenger

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You have a very good point. Clapham Junction has 17 or so platforms so there's ways around it, but anywhere else no, sadly, it seems. Where could the service go apart from via Watford at the moment?

The direct route between Waterloo and the WLL does not go through Clapham Jn.

Even if it did there are no platforms long enough for a sleeper at Clapham Jn, and the platforms that actually link easily to the WLL (on either the Windsor side or the Southern side) are mostly short platfoms, 8 car length.
 

ushawk

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If there was to be a problem on the WLL (for example, the line is currently closed through Shepherds Bush because of a large fire), what would the diversion route be ? As if this happened say in the Bushey area, wouldnt the sleeper be diverted via the ECML ?
 

Clip

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Does this mean that the Railway Children play will not be shown at Waterloo anymore then :(

thats more important then breaking down on the WLL IMO
 

NSE

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If there was to be a problem on the WLL (for example, the line is currently closed through Shepherds Bush because of a large fire), what would the diversion route be ? As if this happened say in the Bushey area, wouldnt the sleeper be diverted via the ECML ?

Waterloo-Clapham-Staines-Reading-Oxford-Banbury-Coventry/Camp Hill- Birmingham New Street-Wolves-Stafford is one option.
 

Lrd

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Waterloo-Clapham-Staines-Reading-Oxford-Banbury-Coventry/Camp Hill- Birmingham New Street-Wolves-Stafford is one option.
Another one is down to Wimbledon, round the Sutton loop and then through Thameslink and onwards from there.
 

cle

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How about via Barnes Bridge, South Acton and then the WCML? Via Oxford would be ridiculous.
 

Lrd

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How about via Barnes Bridge, South Acton and then the WCML? Via Oxford would be ridiculous.
Think it is safe to say that there are plenty of 'back up' routes.
 
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Can I just say that I have read this entire thread, and it must rank as one of the most surreal experiences for a long time.

As an infrequent sleeper passenger in the dim and distant past, I have to say that the longer the train took to reach its destination, the happier I was. I didn't look forward to being turfed out of my bed at 0630 and staggering bleary eyed onto a cold and rather empty platform.

And as for being delayed (say) near Shepherds Bush on the outward journey, what is the problem? It is most likely to be dark outside anyway, so most punters wouldn't know where they were. A few drinks in the bar, and they wouldn't care if the train stopped half a dozen times between Waterloo and Watford as long as they arrived in one piece at their destination.
 

NSE

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How about via Barnes Bridge, South Acton and then the WCML? Via Oxford would be ridiculous.

Well what if the problem on the WCML was between Rugby Junction and the WLL? Going via Oxford, yes it is longer, however can mean that larger chunks of the WCML be skipped. Going via Acton only skips a short section, and the longer the better for a sleeper anyway, padding in the time table may mean it takes a very similar if not equal amount of time.
 

Eagle

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Well what if the problem on the WCML was between Rugby Junction and the WLL? Going via Oxford, yes it is longer, however can mean that larger chunks of the WCML be skipped. Going via Acton only skips a short section, and the longer the better for a sleeper anyway, padding in the time table may mean it takes a very similar if not equal amount of time.

The question was what if the line was blocked at Shepherd's Bush :P Via the NLL is the logical route. If Willesden is blocked, again go for the NLL at Kew, then take the Dudding Hill line to join the WCML at Harlesden.

If there was a problem between Harlesden and Rugby the best bet would be to take the NLL and Dudding Hill to join the Chiltern ML at Neasden, and switch back to the WCML at Bordesley or via Kenilworth and Bedworth. That would be a lot shorter than via Didcot (and has less freight to path around).
 

34D

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The question was what if the line was blocked at Shepherd's Bush :P Via the NLL is the logical route. If Willesden is blocked, again go for the NLL at Kew, then take the Dudding Hill line to join the WCML at Harlesden.

If there was a problem between Harlesden and Rugby the best bet would be to take the NLL and Dudding Hill to join the Chiltern ML at Neasden, and switch back to the WCML at Bordesley or via Kenilworth and Bedworth. That would be a lot shorter than via Didcot (and has less freight to path around).

Another option would be WCML to Willesden No. 7 Jun (single line that branches off just after Harlesden DC station), Action Wells Jun, through Acton Central/South Acton NLL stations, Kew East-New Kew Juns, Chiswick station, Barnes Station, Clapham Junction..... or even more esoteric Acton Wells Jun, Poplar Jun, onto the GWML down relief, down main, reverse at Reading, and thence via Bracknell.

Note - I'm hoping that three unelectrified sections of line in West London will be wired as part of the GWML wiring: Willesden Number 7 to Acton Wells Jun which is one mile (where it brieftly joins with the OLE of the NLL), and Acton Wells Jun to Poplar Jun which is 0.7 mile (these two bits I've made reference to in the diversionary route above) and Willesden West London Jun to Acton Wells Jun (again one mile) which would be needed to get an electric ECS from Waterloo to Wembley depot (but see lower).

If electric hauled passenger services were to become a reality as described, then the triangle of lines from South Action to Brentford and Kew Bridge ought to be done as a little infill third rail scheme aswell (less than 3 miles).

Can I first of all say that eagle and MRC247 have the patience of saints. Some good debate in this thread has been diluted by.... well whatever you want to call it, the mods have dealt so I won't say any more, apart from to share the frustrations of others.

A few random points from me if I may:
-the sleepers (both) have suffered from years of "not really being bothered" treatment from Intercity and First. That First Rail has never produced any joint marketing of the services speaks volumes.

-the savings offered by joint management must be worth consideration, though this would effectively be a smaller TOC than Island line, so it may not produce any saving at all. That said - tagging all the sleepers onto FGW is no more bizarre than them being tagged onto a commuter operation in Glasgow. This would not necessarily necessitate a change of termini for either - for example both Old Oak and Willesden are accessible from Pad Eus and Waterloo with max of one reversal.

-agree that cleaning and stabling could easily be done in platforms at Waterloo International. With cyclical working and identical formations, stock could quite easily be rotated (as already said) so that sunday night it is the up lowland, monday night down riviera, tuesday night up riviera, wed night down highland, thu night up highland, fri night down lowland - and the sets that do lowland being the ones that receive their A exam at Polmedie during that day. If there were seven identical rakes (complicated by the fort william, granted) then each rake could get one work day a week off for B exams when needed. This is just an example though.

-re Old Oak, is it still on the cards that FGW are going to transfer lock stock and Barrel into North Pole?

-it does seem likely that there will be disruption at Euston as it is remodelled, so moving the sleepers away from there (at least temporarily) makes sense.

-I don't see why both p1 and p2 at Waterloo would need to close. If p1 was closed and lifted, then (as already said) p2 could be extended southwards to the point where the track out of p2 becomes the down main slow (i.e. the eastern most line) - this meaning that the required 10 or 12 coach length should be perfectly feasible.

-regarding the route into Waterloo, as far as I can see this would not share track with any SWT services at any point. From Kensington Olympia, all would pass through Imperial Wharf station, shepcote lane curve, then join the Windsor Reversible right the way to the eurostar platforms. Looking at both peaks, I could only find one train which used this line (looking at platform 1 at Vauxhall, and know from experience it is rarely used).

-on the subject of the lowland, then to avoid any uncoupling, one thought is for the whole train to go into Glasgow Central (with an early bird stop around 6am for those who want it), then the whole train to Motherwell, Edinburgh, then back to Glasgow for those who prefer a couple of extra hours in bed, thence to Polmadie. Replace the two Glasgow calls for the two Edinburgh calls (and stabling on Craigentinny) if this is considered a better way to cater to a business market who may want to be off by 7am and a tourist market who may want to stay asleep until 9am.

-regarding the highland - before I suggest that Fort William should be cut as uneconomic, and the aberdeen and inverness should run as one train London-Stirling-Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen-Inverness, does anyone actually have any usage figures for this service? Either something official, or their own feedback from a previous trip?
 

junglejames

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-regarding the highland - before I suggest that Fort William should be cut as uneconomic, and the aberdeen and inverness should run as one train London-Stirling-Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen-Inverness, does anyone actually have any usage figures for this service? Either something official, or their own feedback from a previous trip?

FW is often full to capacity on a lot of nights. Its also extremely handy, and should be looked at in more than just a monetary sense.
Same goes for Aberdeen and Inverness. Anyway, there is no sensible way of running Aberdeen and Inverness as a single train North of Edinburgh. Your suggestion would take far too long to get to Inverness. The times as they are, are just right. Your suggestion could possibly add upto another 2hrs onto the journey.

Id say the best bet would be to keep the destinations as they are, and to try and increase capacity. Perhaps with airline style sleeper pods as often mentioned on here.
 

Eagle

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Another option would be WCML to Willesden No. 7 Jun (single line that branches off just after Harlesden DC station), Action Wells Jun, through Acton Central/South Acton NLL stations, Kew East-New Kew Juns, Chiswick station, Barnes Station, Clapham Junction.....

Erm, that's exactly what I said and you quoted... the line between No 7 and Acton Wells is part of the Dudding Hill line.
 

DownSouth

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You certainly can't do it with the present signalling - the line through Gasworks Tunnel isn't permissive, and I can't ever see changing (in a tunnel!). Are there any examples of permissive passenger lines outside stations, out of interest?

You could, I suppose, shunt the leading portion on top of the rear whilst the latter was still in the platform - if you could cope with the blockage in the station throat, and the fact that the loco would be standing well outside the platform starter.
The core of the problem is in bold for you - the can't do attitude. If the powers that be wanted it to be done, a solution would surely be found in due course.
 

Tomnick

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The core of the problem is in bold for you - the can't do attitude. If the powers that be wanted it to be done, a solution would surely be found in due course.
It certainly can't be done with the current signalling - no doubt about that. Whether it could be done in the future, I don't know - but a permissive passenger line in a tunnel and in a 1-in-107 (I think) rising gradient wouldn't impress the powers that be, I'm sure. Would the cost of the additional signalling be justified by two daily trains anyway, especially with an alternative of dropping the front portion onto the rear in the platform?
 

tbtc

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-the savings offered by joint management must be worth consideration, though this would effectively be a smaller TOC than Island line, so it may not produce any saving at all. That said - tagging all the sleepers onto FGW is no more bizarre than them being tagged onto a commuter operation in Glasgow

I really don't know who would be best to operate a combined Sleeper franchise.

Since FSR and FGW don't run any locos* (apart from one Fife Circle "peak extra" on FSR), there's no interworking with FSR/FGW trains. Operationally the Sleepers would have more in common with a freight company, since they could provide the pool of locos required. It'd be more efficient than having a passenger TOC have an engine sat in somewhere like Fort William/ Inverness/ Aberdeen for most of the day (since a freight TOC could use the loco to interwork with freight duties).

(* - ignoring debate about whether HSTs are "locos" or "multiple units...)
 

philjo

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Assuming the east-west line gets built, then the trains could be diverted via Aylesbury to MK if the southern section of the WCML is closed (though the line obviously is not electrified at the moment)

The dedicated sleeper terminal would help with capacity at Euston. It would be like Gare de Bercy in Paris where the Venice/Rome sleepers go from but better connected and hopefully with better facilities!

The only issue is with onward Connections to/from eurostar being worse than the present short walk from Euston.
 

Zoe

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Since FSR and FGW don't run any locos* (apart from one Fife Circle "peak extra" on FSR), there's no interworking with FSR/FGW trains.
Wouldn't it be a seprate sleeper franchise though rather than adding it to an existing franchise? Also FGW do use locomotives on the current Night Riviera service.
 

tbtc

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Wouldn't it be a seprate sleeper franchise though rather than adding it to an existing franchise? Also FGW do use locomotives on the current Night Riviera service.

The point I'm trying to make is that FGW don't use locos on their daytime services, so having a FGW loco dedicated to the Sleeper would mean it sitting around for most of the day doing nothing.

But a freight operator could find some tasks to keep it busy in daylight hours, thus keeping the costs down
 

HSTEd

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The point I'm trying to make is that FGW don't use locos on their daytime services, so having a FGW loco dedicated to the Sleeper would mean it sitting around for most of the day doing nothing.

But a freight operator could find some tasks to keep it busy in daylight hours, thus keeping the costs down

But aren't the FGW locos dedicated to the sleeper anyway?

A sleeper/NightTrain franchise would be able to only keep one electric in reserve in the London area for all three sleeper services, and only one diesel locomotive in reserve in the South West, which is likely a reduction of one compared to the current fleet. Even with a locomotive change in Bristol.
 

Zoe

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If the new sleeper stock is multiple units though there won't be any need for locomotives.
 

HSTEd

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If the new sleeper stock is multiple units though there won't be any need for locomotives.

Well unless they are DMUs they would need locomotives for Bristol-Cornwall and Scottish Central Belt - Highlands
 
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