Aslef threaten Scotrail strike over Driver sickie!

[Greenback]

In every job I have had, no one has ever tried to cancel any of my booked leave, including my years with FGW. They can, and have asked me to cancel or change my leave, and I have done when I haven't had any holidays or travel booked, but if anyone had told me my leave was off, I would have been very annoyed.

I think I would probably have informed my employers in writing that I would still be taking my previously agree and authorised leave. I would certainly not have tried to tell them I was sick on the day or days in question, so based on what has been said there is clearly fault on both sides here.

 

[boing_uk]

Remind me never to visit your planet!

I never said it was right. I was just pointing out what the law says on the matter, so chill the [expletive] out, dude.

 

[BestWestern]

In every job I have had, no one has ever tried to cancel any of my booked leave, including my years with FGW. They can, and have asked me to cancel or change my leave, and I have done when I haven't had any holidays or travel booked, but if anyone had told me my leave was off, I would have been very annoyed.

I think I would probably have informed my employers in writing that I would still be taking my previously agree and authorised leave. I would certainly not have tried to tell them I was sick on the day or days in question, so based on what has been said there is clearly fault on both sides here.

You're quite right, and I'm not suggesting that the guy was in the right. But given the reported circumstances I could understand if he had felt it was easier than going up against his employer and not knowing what chance he stood. He had spent a presumably substantial sum of his own money on a trip which the company had given him every reason to believe he would be able to take. I very much doubt that they were offering anybody reimbursement of the costs they would very obviously be causing some staff. He was at least honest when challenged, and appears to have admitted the 'offence' fairly early on. If he'd told them to go away and prove it it would have been highly unlikely to have gone any further, foriegn ringtones or not!

 

[Nonsense]

Really? I'm not aware of any technology that can cope with the level of urban train services and if it was so easy why hasn't it been done?

I don't think anyone would argue that its not a difficult task to automate a national multiuser railway, but the question of 'why' is easy. Wonga.

Chuck enough money at this and you'll have viable solutions coming out of your ears.

 

[Greenback]

I never said it was right. I was just pointing out what the law says on the matter, so chill the [expletive] out, dude.

By stating he was too ill to work, you are right. That was the mistake. He should have got ASLEF on to it when he was told his leave was cancelled.

 

[SS4]

In every job I have had, no one has ever tried to cancel any of my booked leave, including my years with FGW. They can, and have asked me to cancel or change my leave, and I have done when I haven't had any holidays or travel booked, but if anyone had told me my leave was off, I would have been very annoyed.

I think I would probably have informed my employers in writing that I would still be taking my previously agree and authorised leave. I would certainly not have tried to tell them I was sick on the day or days in question, so based on what has been said there is clearly fault on both sides here.

Of course you're right, the driver was wrong to claim sick and would have had more joy with taking it up when the leave was cancelled.

My own opinion (not related to Greenback's quote) is that the reason doesn't matter. The rabid tabloids are foaming at the mouth like a dog with a stake just out of reach and vast swathes of the public will swallow it without a second thought (check out the first few replies to this topic, the sun isn't known for supporting the unions)

 

[Greenback]

You're quite right, and I'm not suggesting that the guy was in the right. But given the reported circumstances I could understand if he had felt it was easier than going up against his employer and not knowing what chance he stood. He had spent a presumably substantial sum of his own money on a trip which the company had given him every reason to believe he would be able to take. I very much doubt that they were offering anybody reimbursement of the costs they would very obviously be causing some staff. He was at least honest when challenged, and appears to have admitted the 'offence' fairly early on. If he'd told them to go away and prove it it would have been highly unlikely to have gone any further, foriegn ringtones or not!

Assuming he had his leave request authorised in the proper manner, I can;t really see how an employer has the right to cancel it. I'm sure that the driver felt he was morally entitled to take a sickie in the circumstances, and he has a point, but it has only made matters worse!

Now most contracts I have had have included some sort of clause stating that authorised leave may be cancelled in extreme circumstances, but with no definition of what those circumstances might be. I know of no one else anywhere that I've worked who has had leave, so i have no personal knowledge of this, but it would be extremely unfair if employers routinely treated their workers in such a fashion.

 

[BestWestern]

I never said it was right. I was just pointing out what the law says on the matter, so chill the [expletive] out, dude.

Hmm, my impression was that you thought the guy and his union were out of order, apologies if that wasn't the case. Always gets a little heated when you combine railway unions and forum trolls... :roll: (I'm not referring to you there!)

 

[Greenback]

Of course you're right, the driver was wrong to claim sick and would have had more joy with taking it up when the leave was cancelled.

Indeed, we must try and deal with things in the correct way. I would never have done what the driver did, but I can understand his thinking.

 

[boing_uk]

My opinion IS that calling for strike action on this matter IS out of order, because the guy essentially committed gross misconduct by what he did. The law as it stands does not really protect the employee in cases such as when leave is terminated by the employer.

The driver shot themselves in the foot by doing what they did and the union calling for strike action to get him reinstated, however the immoral, yet perfectly legal stance of the company is not the way to garner public support.

What the public, and myself, WOULD support would have been ASLEF calling for strike action when this tit-for-tat behaviour started off to prevent a situation like this from happening in the first place.

 

[BestWestern]

To be perfectly honest, I doubt whether ASLEF are particularly concerned about having public support for this one. It's a fairly complex internal issue and the public are unlikely to have the facts to build an informed view on the matter really. The guy might have technically broken the rules, but the company drove him to it through utterly abhorent behaviour on their part. They deserve the backlash if they are prepared to attempt those sort of tactics.

 

[12CSVT]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of what the driver did, it would appear that FSR management are also guilty of misconduct. They agree to the driver's leave request, he makes plans - (and very expensive plans), then management inexplicably cancels that driver's leave.

 

[boing_uk]

The fact remains though that they are legally entitled to do it and the employee did not follow correct procedure to remedy the losses they may have incurred.

As it stands, they are threatening a strike over something which could have been prevented by the driver doing things the correct way.

 

[BestWestern]

The fact remains though that they are legally entitled to do it and the employee did not follow correct procedure to remedy the losses they may have incurred.

As it stands, they are threatening a strike over something which could have been prevented by the driver doing things the correct way.

There is a time and a place for behaving in a reasonable, respectful manner and taking the time to do things in the 'correct' way. When somebody who knows better is trying to shaft you just to make a point, that is not that time or place.

I'm a car dealer, you've just bought a car from me in good faith, got a mile up the road and it's gone bang. I could do things 'correctly' and be open and honest, take back the vehicle and return your cash. But I'm not going to, I'm going to wait it out and make you take me to court. I'm going to do this because I've decided that I don't like you and want to make a point, and as much as I know it's completely immoral and will cause you major problems, I'm going to do it because I can. How do you feel?!

Why should anybody stand idly by while somebody does them over? Yes, there is black and white and right and wrong and rules, but it's never quite a level playing field, is it?

 

[68000]

ASLEF are delusional if they think they can win this. I have never, in 19 years working in the railway, had leave that was properly authorised cancelled.

They are willing to cost the taxpayer money and **** off a whole load of passenger over some guy who decided to take a sick day when he was not sick. Way to go ASLEF!

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

In every job I have had, no one has ever tried to cancel any of my booked leave, including my years with FGW. They can, and have asked me to cancel or change my leave, and I have done when I haven't had any holidays or travel booked, but if anyone had told me my leave was off, I would have been very annoyed.

I think I would probably have informed my employers in writing that I would still be taking my previously agree and authorised leave. I would certainly not have tried to tell them I was sick on the day or days in question, so based on what has been said there is clearly fault on both sides here.

Very well said,I was about to post something similar.

 

[90019]

I'm a car dealer, you've just bought a car from me in good faith, got a mile up the road and it's gone bang. I could do things 'correctly' and be open and honest, take back the vehicle and return your cash. But I'm not going to, I'm going to wait it out and make you take me to court. I'm going to do this because I've decided that I don't like you and want to make a point, and as much as I know it's completely immoral and will cause you major problems, I'm going to do it because I can. How do you feel?!

Slightly irritated, but realise that the fault is my own for not test driving and getting the car properly looked over by a mechanic.
I speak from personal experience.


The driver is the one at fault here, for lying about being ill trying to use a sick day as a holiday - he got caught and has had to pay the price. The fact he had leave cancelled becomes a moot point because he decided to take things into his own hands and lie to the company.
Frankly, he's lucky to still have a job. Try pulling a stunt like that in most other jobs and you'd be out the door as soon as you get found out.

 

[9K43]

I am a Union man, always will be regardless of what people say..

HOWEVER

ASLE&F will shaft every other grade to gain a few pence more, yes they are there for the drivers but they do tend to forget that Drivers are only 1 part of a very large system, the more ASLE&F push for what they want (even more than the RMT on most occasions) the more the government and TOC's/FOC's will look at automated systems, it won't affect this generation (like myself) but it will the next. I do not begrudge anyone who is willing to fight for what they feel is fair (on this everyone has differing opinions) but if ASLE&F actually worked with other unions more, more would be benefitted and alot less hostility between the unions would make everything alot better (IMHO of course).

I totally agree with what you have written, I was one of those that got shafted to pay for a ASLEF pay rise.Same old same.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

By stating he was too ill to work, you are right. That was the mistake. He should have got ASLEF on to it when he was told his leave was cancelled.

A point well made and the correct procedure which should have been followed. If you are a member of a union, let them deal with the matter on your behalf.

 

[boing_uk]

I'm a car dealer, you've just bought a car from me in good faith, got a mile up the road and it's gone bang. I could do things 'correctly' and be open and honest, take back the vehicle and return your cash. But I'm not going to, I'm going to wait it out and make you take me to court. I'm going to do this because I've decided that I don't like you and want to make a point, and as much as I know it's completely immoral and will cause you major problems, I'm going to do it because I can. How do you feel?!

Why should anybody stand idly by while somebody does them over? Yes, there is black and white and right and wrong and rules, but it's never quite a level playing field, is it?

So I take the car back to the dealership and simply take another vehicle of equivalent value to the one that broke down? That would be morally right, but it would also be theft.

It isnt a level playing field, but the fact remains that this driver went about it in entirely the wrong way, got caught doing it, and got away with his job. And why should the travelling public have to put up with the disruption for it?

Fine, adjust your terms and conditions so that FSR cant do what they are currently doing. Strike over working conditions if you must. But to strike over someone who got caught out doing what they shouldn't be doing? Come on!

Sorry, but this one IS clear cut, assuming the information posted thus far is correct. The guy is lucky to still have a job. Dont like it? Petition to change the law, as it is the law and the negotiated T&C's which are the issue here and this driver stepped outside of the protection of both.

 

[CarterUSM]

A couple of things. The driver was sacked, and got a station grade B job after appeal, next step is a directors appeal very soon. Lieu leave for drivers was also cancelled during their recent dispute in Nov/Dec, which ironically , was regarding lieu leave amongst other things, and i'm sure ASLE&F were well aware of the situation.

 

[BestWestern]

Well, all I can say is that I am genuinely shocked at how many of our members would - apparently, when the situation isn't affecting them - have just taken these events lying down; cancelled their holiday, waved goodbye to their hard earned cash and dutifully turned up for work. I'm equally dismayed at how many seem to think somebody pulling a sickie is totally outrageous even in the face of an employer cancelling leave they had already granted, deliberately causing needless hardship to their own employees in order, allegedly, to make a statement. Thank christ I don't work for any of you lot!

I don't condone people taking sick days when they aren't sick, but equally the idea that this chap should've just argued the toss with the company and hoped for the best is a tad wet. What if the arguments took longer than he had before his intended leave? What if the company decided, as likely they would, to stick to their guns and say no? Would they have sent him a cheque to cover his lost expenses? What do you think?! Why the hell should he see his own money being pi55ed away through no fault of his own? It's all very well putting it in writing and telling them you won't be in, until they then use your signed admission of prior intent to go AWOL as indisputable evidence to sack you! If employers want their staff to be loyal and honest, they'd do best not to tream them like crap. It's quite simple really, and most firms seem to manage it without too much hardship.

I say again that my views are based on the earlier explanation kindly posted in this thread being accurate. If indeed that was the case, then this guy is guilty of nothing more than being stuck in a tricky spot by somebody else's unacceptable actions. This situation was not of his making, he is not the bad guy.

 

[LCC106]

However since the other side has been posted I have to say I would do the exact same thing in this drivers situation if I had paid out my own money.

If the supplementary info about leave being cancelled is correct, an appropriate response from the employee would have been for him to explain his situation and financial outlay to his manager and ask for discretion in allowing him to attend still... in my humble opinion...

I still believe this is a breakdown of trust and depending on company benefits could also have resulted in receipt of company sick pay, which he was clearly not entitled to. We don't know the ins and outs of course.
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Unfortunately, in law, the driver has still breached his contract and committed gross misconduct ... Sorry, but the fellow is lucky to still have the job they have.

Well said!

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah but who actually caused the breakdown of trust? The employee, who falsely claimed sick leave, or the TOC, who cancelled his pre-agreed leave in the first place?

 

[LCC106]

I would expect anybody with a backbone and an ounce of self respect to stand their ground in such a situation, I know I certainly would. This guy might have done better to have simply advised his employer that they were out of order, he would be sticking with his plans, and any disciplinary action following would result in him seeing them in court.

Hardly the grounds for a positive working relationship, threatening to sue his employers! :roll:

 

[BestWestern]

Hardly the grounds for a positive working relationship, threatening to sue his employers! :roll:

And you feel that your employer pulling your agreed leave out from under your feet, and bollox to any plans you made, is the grounds for a positive working relationship??!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the supplementary info about leave being cancelled is correct, an appropriate response from the employee would have been for him to explain his situation and financial outlay to his manager and ask for discretion in allowing him to attend still... in my humble opinion...

And they'd have said no. Otherwise everybody would suddenly have booked a holiday, or have had a funeral, etc etc. The manager would almost certainly have been under strictest instructions not to grant any exceptions, else the whole effort would have been undermined.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah but who actually caused the breakdown of trust? The employee, who falsely claimed sick leave, or the TOC, who cancelled his pre-agreed leave in the first place?

Well said that man! Glad it isn't just me who is able to see what's wrong here! :roll:

 

[LCC106]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and it is clear that as individuals we will disagree. That's ok as long as we remain respectful. However, I disagree in part with the following:

There is a time and a place for behaving in a reasonable, respectful manner and taking the time to do things in the 'correct' way.

Who's to say what is the correct or incorrect way? I have dealt with some unpleasant people in my time who have committed gross misconduct, been caught in the act, lied to my face and threatened me. I remained reasonable and respectful. I try to live by the motto "Treat others as you'd like to be treated yourself." Usually works for me.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

And you feel that your employer pulling your agreed leave out from under your feet and bollox to any plans you made is the grounds for a positive working relationship??!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And they'd have said no. Otherwise everybody would suddenly have booked a holiday, or have had a funeral etc etc. The manager would almost certainly have been under strictest instructions not to grant any exceptions, else they whole effort would have been undermined.

Totally agree.His mistake was going sick.He should have just told them he wasn't coming in.As long as he had written confirmation that his leave had been granted the company wouldn't have dared sacked or demoted him.Even if ASLEF hadn't called for industrial action the company's case would have been laughed out of an industrial tribunal.

 

[LCC106]

And you feel that your employer pulling your agreed leave out from under your feet, and bollox to any plans you made, is the grounds for a positive working relationship??!

No, but I then refer to the next comment of mine that you quoted - that would have been the right course of action to take.

Last minute holidays would not have been authorised, ok, I agree that funerals may have suddenly come in to the equation.

 

[BestWestern]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and it is clear that as individuals we will disagree. That's ok as long as we remain respectful. However, I disagree in part with the following:



Who's to say what is the correct or incorrect way? I have dealt with some unpleasant people in my time who have committed gross misconduct, been caught in the act, lied to my face and threatened me. I remained reasonable and respectful. I try to live by the motto "Treat others as you'd like to be treated yourself." Usually works for me.

I agree with your motto, and I would never condone anybody acting in the manner that you describe directly toward another individual. My comment was aimed at his approach to the company in general, my point being that the company, through it's actions, was neither proper nor respectful itself.