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Bombardier £188m Order from Southern

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LNW-GW Joint

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It's an odd day for such news, but the BBC and some newspaper sites are reporting that Bombardier have won the expected 130-car order from Southern.
The story seems to be from Justine Greening herself - nothing on the DfT or industry sites.
Anybody know any more?
The timing suggests this is being rushed out so that Bombardier can account for it this year - maybe a letter of intent.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...wins-188-million-trains-deal-115875-23664116/
 
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anthony263

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Hopefully the management have seen sense and decided to build southern some class 377's.

If they are class 379's however then they should be compatible with the existing class 377 fleet.
 
Nym

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anthony263 said:
If they are class 379's however then they should be compatible with the existing class 377 fleet.
Click to expand...

You'd think so but this is Bombardier we're talking about...

Remember these are the people who when the 170/5 and 170/6 units rolled off the line they couldn't talk to eachother...
 
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anthony263

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Nym said:
You'd think so but this is Bombardier we're talking about...

Remember these are the people who when the 170/5 and 170/6 units rolled off the line they couldn't talk to eachother...
Click to expand...

Yes, Thinking back you are right.

Makes me think most of the problems at Bombardier are because of the management
 
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jopsuk

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even if they build 377s, there's at best an evens chance they'll be compatible with 377s. Of the same batch.
 
asylumxl

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Nym said:
You'd think so but this is Bombardier we're talking about...

Remember these are the people who when the 170/5 and 170/6 units rolled off the line they couldn't talk to eachother...
Click to expand...

Also 377/2 couldn't "talk" to 377/5 units either. I'm not sure if this has been rectified.
 
Nym

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It's a wonder that Derby can get such a basic engineering principal wrong, if you build something it should be able to talk to something else that is basically the same...

There's no need to re-invent the wheel with your comms systems each time, all it does it push up your development costs...

As an example...

Seimens use exactly the same control and communications systems on the 350/1, 350/2, 360, 444 and 450. The 185 is broadly similar but diesel = different controls. The 380 is a major chance thanks to using multidrop microcontroller networks (On either RS485 or TCP/IP IIRC) to handle interior controls.

For every electrostar of new they re-wrote the whole control system, partly because when they did it in the first place, they didn't do it properly. Sorry, but who designs a train managment system to run on Windows 95? Even Alstom aren't that lazy!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
asylumxl said:
Also 377/2 couldn't "talk" to 377/5 units either. I'm not sure if this has been rectified.
Click to expand...

That has, and guess what, it was a software issue...!
 
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In defence of the Derby works the class 170 is compatible with Sprinters while the 175s and 185s are not. The 170 could even be modified to be compatible with EMUs (as Southern have done) and 185s (as TPE have done.) The 185s as built were not compatible with any other type of train and the Siemens 350s and 380s aren't compatible with each other which is why the LM/TPE order is for the older 350 design not the 380 design.
 
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Does make sense that they got the contract, but i just hope they get it right and make sure they are compatible with the 377's - maybe loan a 377 to Bombardier so they can check before they send them to Southern so they don't cock up down there.

Also, will these units be spread across the network or kept in 1 place - maybe the "metro" area to replace the 455's/to strengthen WLL services ?
 
Nym

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Thats the only defence of the 170 series I have too is that they made the effort for them to be compatable with sprinters, but when the're not even compatable with eachother it's laughable.

And 171s are only capable of pulling EMUs in an emergency, there aren't any control signals sent from end to end, only a brake line.

171s could never work with 185s, the coupler layout is just all wrong, and it would be prohibitavly expensive to modify.

380s are not designed to work wtih 350s, it was never in the specification, the same as 350/360/444/450 unit's can't work with 332 and 333 units. The 380s are the prototype Desiro City as a proof of concept and to iron out operations problems with new control systems. They where never intended to work with anything else, other than Desiro City units.

And if the TPE order was to perminantly stay with TPE, I could see the 380 design as being more appropriate because of the 23m carriges and lower axle weight. But it's because the're intended to go back to LM when 'a more perminant solution' is found for TPE rolling stock and Manc - Scotland rolling stock, that could actually mean Manchester - Scotland being handed over to ICWC and being run by 390s.
 
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Nym said:
when the're not even compatable with eachother it's laughable
Click to expand...

Really the 377s are two different types of units just as much as 350s and 450s are two different types of units.

The first 377 was built in 2001 and there's possibly more 377s being built in 2012. Is that really the right approach to be taking for a train build when technology is fast moving?

Bombardier didn't offer 170s when they bid for the TPE order and that was less than 7 years after the first 170 was built.
 
Nym

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OK, I'm working for panasonic, or an electronics mfr.

I suddenly decide that I don't want to use SCART, HDMI, VGA and DisplayPort standards, I'm going to write all my own for this new tele, and you can only use it with other teles from this series...

You don't need to use old technology to be compatable with old technology!

You can have different software on every unit in the fleet if it's properly designed in the first place, so long as the interface stack is the same at the levels where it needs to be the same, it doesn't matter what happens further up.

But when you design what is affectively, thanks to how it's configued, a new socket each time, chances are it won't be exactly the same.

Use the same socket each time with the same comms standards and you're fine. You can write different managment software.
 
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jcollins said:
The 170 could even be modified to be compatible with EMUs (as Southern have done) and 185s (as TPE have done.)
Click to expand...

How are they compatible with each other? They can't even physically couple in normal operation (Dellner vs BSI)!
 
westcoaster

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Nym said:
5 car units...
Click to expand...

So they will be a sub class by them selves, 26 units, 13 10 car trains, so to make a 12 car it could be 5+3+4, I think they will be self contained to run together, or is it a replacement for the 442's.
 
Nym

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Last I read the're reforming some units to 5 car and ordering more 5 car for the London 10 car suburban commuter lines thingey...
 
Fincra5

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Hardly suprising lol. Would have been rather stupid to give the contract for units similar to 377s to a company that doesn't make them :P
 
bb21

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Ahem. All the talk by lobbyists about the loss of jobs, blah, blah, blah...

I wonder how many of the 1400 will be saved.
 
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tbtc said:
I take it that this was a "follow on" order, and not a competitive tender?
Click to expand...

Southern did issue a tender but worded it in such a way that it was virtually impossible for anyone other than Bombardier to win. It's similar to what LM did with the LM/TPE tender stated the new units must be compatible with 350s so Siemens offered a bid stating 350s and automatically won.
 
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LNW-GW Joint said:
It's an odd day for such news, but the BBC and some newspaper sites are reporting that Bombardier have won the expected 130-car order from Southern.
The story seems to be from Justine Greening herself - nothing on the DfT or industry sites.
Anybody know any more?
The timing suggests this is being rushed out so that Bombardier can account for it this year - maybe a letter of intent.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...wins-188-million-trains-deal-115875-23664116/
Click to expand...

Bombardier announced this in an e-mail to their staff this morning as well.
 
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Aictos

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jcollins said:
Bombardier didn't offer 170s when they bid for the TPE order and that was less than 7 years after the first 170 was built.
Click to expand...

What did Bombardier offer then? As they didn't offer 170s.
 
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