West Yorkshire bus franchising

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes I get that but a franchising authority has more to gain in reducing operating costs by implementing bus priority measures.

When I read your line...

This is one of the arguments in favour of franchising. Authorities restricting private vehicle access only improve things for private operators whereas under franchising it would be the authorities themselves who reaped any rewards from faster running times due to less traffic.

...my first thought was the passenger - they should be the ones getting the reward.

Perhaps a slightly different way of approaching it is for local authorities to recognise it is in their interest to sort it out... full stop. Unfortunately, politics and finances often get in the way.

 

[Deerfold]

There's been a few areas in West Yorkshire where roads have been improved for buses and then the operator has changed the route to not use the improved section.
There should be more coordination so such waste doesn't happen.

 

[Megafuss]

When I read your line...


...my first thought was the passenger - they should be the ones getting the reward.

Perhaps a slightly different way of approaching it is for local authorities to recognise it is in their interest to sort it out... full stop. Unfortunately, politics and finances often get in the way.

Don't hold your breath

At a bus franchising event a few weeks ago, I asked whether operational coordination between bus authorities and highway planning teams had improved in franchised areas. The answer was a definitive...NO...beyond an initial surge during the very first week

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Don't hold your breath

At a bus franchising event a few weeks ago, I asked whether operational coordination between bus authorities and highway planning teams had improved in franchised areas. The answer was a definitive...NO...beyond an initial surge during the very first week

I am not holding my breath.

As we've already seen in Greater Manchester, they've tackled the issue of congestion by simply adding more vehicles into the PVR of certain routes. The issue is that the Combined Authority run the transport but the roads and parking are the preserve of the local councils. Whilst the CA is made up of council reps, that divide is a significant challenge.

 

[Andyh82]

There's been a few areas in West Yorkshire where roads have been improved for buses and then the operator has changed the route to not use the improved section.
There should be more coordination so such waste doesn't happen.

Where are these places you speak of?

 

[johncrossley]

What's insane (I don't know if these are the areas being referred to) is that there are some roads in Leeds and maybe elsewhere in West Yorkshire where there are two bus stops at each location, one on the guided busway and a regular bus stop at the kerb for buses without guidewheels.

 

[tomoufc]

Looking forward to discussing the rollout of franchising, rather than revising arguments over whether it should be happening at all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's been a few areas in West Yorkshire where roads have been improved for buses and then the operator has changed the route to not use the improved section.
There should be more coordination so such waste doesn't happen.

Or places where one team have put in raised kerbs to assist with level boarding onto buses, only for another team to come along and install a bus shelter with a solid panel blocking that raised kerb!

 

[TheWierdOne]

I'm not sure where you would put light rail if there isn't room for a bus lane.

In the case of the Otley Road it was planned to have the light rail dip on and off the road at strategic points.

 

[Ballyheigue]

In the case of the Otley Road it was planned to have the light rail dip on and off the road at strategic points.

Yes, I do believe it was to use all that land at the side of Headingley Lane and Otley Road from Woodhouse Moor via the Ridge through to Far Headingley before using Otley Road again. It would have meant the demolition of woodland and properties but it's needed. Hinsley Hall I believe would have been one of the stops used for Headingley stadium as it's a short walk from it's entrance to the stadium.

 

[John HG1]

Yes, I do believe it was to use all that land at the side of Headingley Lane and Otley Road from Woodhouse Moor via the Ridge through to Far Headingley before using Otley Road again. It would have meant the demolition of woodland and properties but it's needed. Hinsley Hall I believe would have been one of the stops used for Headingley stadium as it's a short walk from it's entrance to the stadium.

In which case the land could be used for a bus lane.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's been a few areas in West Yorkshire where roads have been improved for buses and then the operator has changed the route to not use the improved section.
There should be more coordination so such waste doesn't happen.

Where are these places you speak of?

I was wondering where these places are too?

Often bus lanes and other improvements are created on the edges of city centres and into suburbia where there is the most space. However, it can also be where the headways thin out and so it undermines the very argument dedicating road space to buses.

Yes, I do believe it was to use all that land at the side of Headingley Lane and Otley Road from Woodhouse Moor via the Ridge through to Far Headingley before using Otley Road again. It would have meant the demolition of woodland and properties but it's needed. Hinsley Hall I believe would have been one of the stops used for Headingley stadium as it's a short walk from it's entrance to the stadium.

Excuse my scepticism but they haven't been able to get the trams for the first two lines to from Leeds to Bradford and to St James and White Rose built. The idea of demolishing houses on the Headingley Road won't be happening in my lifetime.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

What's insane (I don't know if these are the areas being referred to) is that there are some roads in Leeds and maybe elsewhere in West Yorkshire where there are two bus stops at each location, one on the guided busway and a regular bus stop at the kerb for buses without guidewheels.

There has to be. Non-guided buses cannot use the guideway, and to have the guided buses going off and back on again at each stop would make the journey so slow as to be useless.
If you take York Road in Leeds as an example Metro did scope out the operators with a view to having all buses on the guideway, but understandably Yorkshire Coastliner and Arriva Selby were unwilling to fit their vehicles as it represented a tiny proportion of the routes involved, plus Coastliner don't serve all stops and it would have been detrimental to have their bus stuck in the guideway behind a 40 or similar calling at every lamp post.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Excuse my scepticism but they haven't been able to get the trams for the first two lines to from Leeds to Bradford and to St James and White Rose built. The idea of demolishing houses on the Headingley Road won't be happening in my lifetime.

That’s more due to Whitehall rules rather than any inaction on the part of WYCA or Leeds council. Local government administrations in Leeds, in various forms, have made three attempts in the last two decades to get trams or trolleybuses built in Leeds including the current mass transit proposal. The previous two projects were both killed off, at quite an advanced stage, by the UK government. In fact the supertram of the early 2000s was cancelled right as construction was about to start, with preparatory work having already commenced.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That’s more due to Whitehall rules rather than any inaction on the part of WYCA or Leeds council. Local government administrations in Leeds, in various forms, have made three attempts in the last two decades to get trams or trolleybuses built in Leeds including the current mass transit proposal. The previous two projects were both killed off, at quite an advanced stage, by the UK government. In fact the supertram of the early 2000s was cancelled right as construction was about to start, with preparatory work having already commenced.

I know why, when and how the funding was cancelled; such projects always need the majority of funding to come from central government.

My point was that even getting the current projected scope delivered is proving difficult enough. Talk of demolishing houses and other lines is somewhat optimistic.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

That’s more due to Whitehall rules rather than any inaction on the part of WYCA or Leeds council. Local government administrations in Leeds, in various forms, have made three attempts in the last two decades to get trams or trolleybuses built in Leeds including the current mass transit proposal. The previous two projects were both killed off, at quite an advanced stage, by the UK government. In fact the supertram of the early 2000s was cancelled right as construction was about to start, with preparatory work having already commenced.

Hopefully the new Weaver Network administration will be more realistic if and when they plan any light rail schemes or similar.

As I posted somewhere up thread the schemes largely failed because they were too expensive. A friend of mine saw the tram plans and said you could basically have run a London Kings Cross to Seacroft through train along it; it was hideously over-engineered to the point that it negated the savings usually made by going for light, rather than heavy, rail.
Similarly the trolleybus schemes always seemed to involve new bespoke (expensive) vehicles rather than just going to Mercedes etc and ordering some off-the-shelf vehicles.

As I recall the only real prep for the tram was moving the utilities in City Square, but that was done as part of one of the regular rebuilds of the square which was taking place anyway.

 

[Tim33160]

The public are more reasonable than you think they are not magically expecting buses to run on time. Manchester subreddit is an example of how the general public react to franchising not many have any negative comments to say and when you do find a negative comment it tends to be from an enthusiast.

https://www.reddit.com/r/manchester/comments/1j9oavp/what_are_your_feelings_about_beenetwork_so_far/

These comments are dated two years ago - ie before Tranche 3 took place which was 50% of the network.

Recent weekly punctuality figures are dropping below the TfGM 80% on time target (Traffic Commissioner's have a 95% target)
https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report

Bus punctuality report: 20 - 26 September 2026​

Summary
Roadworks, several disruptive incidents on the strategic road network, a number of events and road closures (including those caused by the ongoing Oldham Way/King Street, A58 Bolton Road, Rochdale Old Road and A56 Manchester Road works, City Centre events and increased traffic around Manchester Airport) impacted on-time performance.
Whilst Bee bus punctuality was above target in the tranche 1 area, overall performance was below target at 76.8%. We continue to work with bus operators and other stakeholders to improve performance across the whole network.

 

[johncrossley]

There has to be. Non-guided buses cannot use the guideway, and to have the guided buses going off and back on again at each stop would make the journey so slow as to be useless.
If you take York Road in Leeds as an example Metro did scope out the operators with a view to having all buses on the guideway, but understandably Yorkshire Coastliner and Arriva Selby were unwilling to fit their vehicles as it represented a tiny proportion of the routes involved, plus Coastliner don't serve all stops and it would have been detrimental to have their bus stuck in the guideway behind a 40 or similar calling at every lamp post.

They could do what Metrobus does and have all bus stops unguided, that way all buses can serve all stops.

Guided busways are not necessary these days unless you are really tight for space as we now have camera enforcement. The Netherlands is probably the best in Europe at building busways but none of them are guided.

 

[Deerfold]

These comments are dated two years ago - ie before Tranche 3 took place which was 50% of the network.

Recent weekly punctuality figures are dropping below the TfGM 80% on time target (Traffic Commissioner's have a 95% target)
https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report

Are they worse than they were before the Bee Network?

 

[mattb7tl]

These comments are dated two years ago - ie before Tranche 3 took place which was 50% of the network.

Recent weekly punctuality figures are dropping below the TfGM 80% on time target (Traffic Commissioner's have a 95% target)
https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report

And yet it still stands none of them expect buses to magically run on time.

Traffic commissioners targets are unrealistic and do not happen anywhere other than small towns or specific route by route cases. Any relatively urban area is not going to be consistently near 90%.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They could do what Metrobus does and have all bus stops unguided, that way all buses can serve all stops.

Guided busways are not necessary these days unless you are really tight for space as we now have camera enforcement. The Netherlands is probably the best in Europe at building busways but none of them are guided.

You don't have to go to the Netherlands to see a more modern, non guided example - the South East Hampshire busway between Fareham and Gosport doesn't have guides. I'd recommend you have a look. In fact, you could visit Runcorn Busway - built in the 1970s and non-guided but perhaps that doesn't fit with a UK is rubbish/Europe is better narrative.

The Leeds schemes were built in the late 1990s. It was appropriate at the time and I don't think anyone would be suggesting that you'd build that now. However, once you build it, it's really not great optics to abandon it until it reaches the end of its design life.

Bristol metrobus is also largely non-guided and across all the three routes, there are only two short sections that are guided. One isn't really needed but one is for the Ashton Avenue bridge in order to accommodate the bus lane and cycle/pedestrian lane and avoid hitting the infrastructure.

These comments are dated two years ago - ie before Tranche 3 took place which was 50% of the network.

Recent weekly punctuality figures are dropping below the TfGM 80% on time target (Traffic Commissioner's have a 95% target)
https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report

I also disagree that most of the dissenting comments were from enthusiasts or that the positives were from average folks too.

Are they worse than they were before the Bee Network?

T1 is notably better, T2 is worse and T3 is about on par. Not surprisingly, once the schools went back, congestion increased and punctuality suffered.