Beeching

[Zoe]

This backs up my point about making public transport more attractive through frequent services, a wide ranging network and extended operating hours. Sadly, as we have discussed quite a few times, places outside London are not so well served.

Yes, what I'm saying is that you don't have to price people out of cars to get them to use public transport. If this was the case then you wouldn't get many people using buses outside of Central London.

 

[Greenback]

My fear about road pricing is that it will encourage rural living if quiet country roads are charged at low rates.

That may not be so bad as long as rural areas do not become built up.

At the moment, there is a fair bit of depopulation in rural areas, as younger people move closer to towns and cities for employment and study.

Rising fuel costs should help to prevent a mass exodus of people from the towns into the sticks. The absence of facilities such as schools and shops in many rural areas of Wales has merely encouraged second homes and holiday accommodation instead of a proper community.

 

[Zoe]

It depends on what objective there is in reducing car use. The thing about road pricing is that it can be tweaked in many ways.

For example, rural roads where there is low population density could be charged at a a much lower rate than those in towns and cities.

Why does it have to be a price lever? There are other ways of encouraging people to use public transport than pricing them out of cars and as I say, you won't get the rich out of their cars with a price lever.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, what I'm saying is that you don't have to price people out of cars to get them to use public transport. If this was the case then you wouldn't get many people using buses outside of Central London.

Yes, I agree that pricing people out of cars is not the only thing that could be done. I do think it might be a part of the solution.

However, it's worth pointing out again that London is well off for public transport provision due, understandably, to it's population density.

In other cities and towns, improvement sin public transport need to be made to ehlp encourage people to use cars less and buses/trains more. This can be done by raising money to improve services by the use of road pricing.
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Why does it have to be a price lever? There are other ways of encouraging people to use public transport than pricing them out of cars and as I say, you won't get the rich out of their cars with a price lever.

What ways would you suggest? Serious question.

I don't see that we can ever price people out of cars completely. What we can do is to reduce car use as much as possible. There are lots of ways that can contribute to this, levers such as road pricing are only one strand, along with such measures as better public transport and the restoration of more localised facilities (meaning the need to travel is reduced).

 

[radamfi]

That may not be so bad as long as rural areas do not become built up.

At the moment, there is a fair bit of depopulation in rural areas, as younger people move closer to towns and cities for employment and study.

Rising fuel costs should help to prevent a mass exodus of people from the towns into the sticks. The absence of facilities such as schools and shops in many rural areas of Wales has merely encouraged second homes and holiday accommodation instead of a proper community.

It may be different in more economically active parts of the country where there seems to be a trend where villages within easy driving distance from major towns effectively become rural suburbs where people move to but still live like they are still in the town. For example, they drive to work in the town and shop in the town and use the town's leisure facilities. They just live in the village without using the village shops or services or interacting with 'locals'.

 

[LE Greys]

It depends on what objective there is in reducing car use. The thing about road pricing is that it can be tweaked in many ways.

For example, rural roads where there is low population density could be charged at a a much lower rate than those in towns and cities.

You could also tax heavy fuel users in other ways, such as through a surcharge whenever certain makes of vehicles are sold or bought.

The buses outside of the charging area are well used. This backs up my point about making public transport more attractive through frequent services, a wide ranging network and extended operating hours. Sadly, as we have discussed quite a few times, places outside London are not so well served.

The easiest way would be to increase fuel taxes to ridiculous ammounts. This punishes inefficient drivers and vehicles, and acts as a very effective road-pricing scheme in that, the more you drive, the more you pay.

 

[Greenback]

It may be different in more economically active parts of the country where there seems to be a trend where villages within easy driving distance from major towns effectively become rural suburbs where people move to but still live like they are still in the town. For example, they drive to work in the town and shop in the town and use the town's leisure facilities. They just live in the village without using the village shops or services or interacting with 'locals'.

Yes, that's true. There are already many places like that in South Wales! In order to try and negate such an effect, such dormitory towns and villages could not be classed as rural. I would base such a classification around population, density of population, and distance from large centres of population.

The easiest way would be to increase fuel taxes to ridiculous ammounts. This punishes inefficient drivers and vehicles, and acts as a very effective road-pricing scheme in that, the more you drive, the more you pay.

Yes, that would certainly encourage less car use, though I doubt anyone would ever try and do such a thing due to the inevitable protests.

What we do need to do is address the issue that exists, if only in people's minds, that the fixed costs of owning a car make it sensible to use it as much as possible rather than leaving it parked up.

This means, as you say, increasing the costs paid at point of use, whether this be by fuel duty, road pricing, tax, or a mixture of methods.

At the same time, we need to look at ways of making public transport more attracive and accessible as an option, through more frequent services, easier ways to pay, longer operating days, more integration and a more comfortable travelling environment.

 

[142094]

The easiest way would be to increase fuel taxes to ridiculous ammounts. This punishes inefficient drivers and vehicles, and acts as a very effective road-pricing scheme in that, the more you drive, the more you pay.

That almost certainly would not reduce congestion, although it would probably help to lower emissions a bit more quickly:

1) People would start to buy either more energy efficient petrol/diesel cars or electric cars

2) People may start to drive around more to find cheaper fuel (it does happen)

 

[radamfi]

2) People may start to drive around more to find cheaper fuel (it does happen)

In extreme cases people can make long special trips just to fill up. For example, the Luxembourg border town of Schengen is full of petrol stations as lots of people drive from neighbouring countries just to fill up as petrol in Luxembourg is much cheaper.

 

[Zoe]

That almost certainly would not reduce congestion, although it would probably help to lower emissions a bit more quickly

It would if fuel was taxed so heavily that most people couldn't afford it. If fuel was much more expensive than it is now it may also make some people think twice before they decide to travel by car.

 

[radamfi]

Petrol has historically been much more expensive in UK/Europe than in the US. Is that the main reason why we use smaller and more efficient cars on this side of the Atlantic? Is that a bigger factor than roads and parking spaces being smaller over here? That would certainly support the argument that cars would become even more efficient if fuel increased in price, without a significant cut in mileage. While a lot of people already use small cars, there are undoubtedly a lot of people who could switch. Petrol certainly isn't prohibitively expensive at the moment, despite the protests of the road lobby, and there is probably scope for doubling or even trebling the price without people with very efficient cars being unable to afford it.

On the other hand, petrol is less heavily taxed in Switzerland but of course they have strong public transport use due to the impressive PT network.

 

[Spamcan81]

The car is not going to go away anytime soon and all this talk of taxing cars off the road is nonsense. There would need to be a vast increase in public transport capacity to cope with a mass switch away from cars. Plus a seismic shift in travel patterns. The car allows you to go pretty much where you want, when you want. With public transport you're tied to a timetable and so often doesn't go just where you want to go.

 

[radamfi]

The car is not going to go away anytime soon and all this talk of taxing cars off the road is nonsense. There would need to be a vast increase in public transport capacity to cope with a mass switch away from cars. Plus a seismic shift in travel patterns. The car allows you to go pretty much where you want, when you want. With public transport you're tied to a timetable and so often doesn't go just where you want to go.

That is the standard response to any argument regarding cutting car traffic, which is understandable given that many people's lifestyles are now built around the car. However, it must be borne in mind that millions of people do live without a car, even with today's public transport network, so it is clearly possible to do so.

 

[Zoe]

The car is not going to go away anytime soon and all this talk of taxing cars off the road is nonsense. There would need to be a vast increase in public transport capacity to cope with a mass switch away from cars. Plus a seismic shift in travel patterns. The car allows you to go pretty much where you want, when you want. With public transport you're tied to a timetable and so often doesn't go just where you want to go.

Things changed a lot when the private car became available though so it's possible that they could change again with a move away from the private car. I think many people would agree that due to climate change and peak oil that the car as we know it is not sustainable, the disagreement is how to bring about the modal shift to public transport.

 

[Spamcan81]

That is the standard response to any argument regarding cutting car traffic, which is understandable given that many people's lifestyles are now built around the car. However, it must be borne in mind that millions of people do live without a car, even with today's public transport network, so it is clearly possible to do so.

Most of these people live in urban areas where public transport is plentiful. Try doing it in rural areas. Plus how do you move 50+ million people around by public transport? As I said in my earlier post, you will need a huge expansion in capacity.

 

[radamfi]

Most of these people live in urban areas where public transport is plentiful. Try doing it in rural areas. Plus how do you move 50+ million people around by public transport? As I said in my earlier post, you will need a huge expansion in capacity.

With everyone dependent on public transport it will become commercially viable to build the necessary capacity and even rural transport would be profitable. Although as stated earlier shared driverless vehicles would go most of the way to sorting out most local transport problems.

 

[Zoe]

Although as stated earlier shared driverless vehicles would go most of the way to sorting out most local transport problems.

Driverless cars are likely to be the future (some reports even suggest they will take over in ten years) but how are you going to force people to share them with others when you can just phone for one and it have it drive you to where you want without having to share.

 

[Spamcan81]

With everyone dependent on public transport it will become commercially viable to build the necessary capacity and even rural transport would be profitable. Although as stated earlier shared driverless vehicles would go most of the way to sorting out most local transport problems.

So even the smallest, most remote hamlet will be on the public transport network will it and it won't be inordinately expensive to provide this transport?

 

[shinkansen1966]

Most of these people live in urban areas where public transport is plentiful. Try doing it in rural areas. Plus how do you move 50+ million people around by public transport? As I said in my earlier post, you will need a huge expansion in capacity.

70% of the UK population live in urban areas.

8 cities: Bristol, Nottingham and suburbs, Birmingham, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield and Manchester have populations over 500,000. These cities can all copy the London transport model namely:

• total state control of public transport provision within its jurisdiction
• promotion of and provision for cyclists
• smart card tickets
• 24 bus services on many routes, with 5-10 min frequencies during the day
• through, simplified, universal and often flat fare ticketing
• and dare I say it, congestion charging

London is the least car dependent city in the UK. I work in an office of 80. Several come by bike, the rest by public transport.

 

[Zoe]

So even the smallest, most remote hamlet will be on the public transport network will it and it won't be inordinately expensive to provide this transport?

See above, driverless cars will resolve this issue.

 

[shinkansen1966]

So even the smallest, most remote hamlet will be on the public transport network will it and it won't be inordinately expensive to provide this transport?

If you can walk two flights of stairs unaided, you can bike 4 miles. Provided it's not a mountain pass !

Despite the traffic, London has the highest number of bike journeys in the UK.

As Norman Tebbit kind of said, on yer bike.

 

[radamfi]

Driverless cars are likely to be the future (some reports even suggest they will be on the roads in 10 years) but how are you going to force people to share them with others when you can just phone for one and it have it drive you to where you want without having to share.

I would guess it would depend on the levels of congestion. In the absence of congestion it may not be necessary to have shared transport. If there is congestion then the system could enforce a connection with a high capacity fixed route service. I am assuming that there would be an intelligent demand management system which selects the optimal route for all driverless vehicles, and whether it is beneficial to share or not.

 

[Zoe]

Another advantage of driverless cars is that faster speeds will be possible and so journey times will be lower.

 

[Spamcan81]

If you can walk two flights of stairs unaided, you can bike 4 miles. Provided it's not a mountain pass !

Despite the traffic, London has the highest number of bike journeys in the UK.

As Norman Tebbit kind of said, on yer bike.

I'll just tell my 86 years old Mum to get on her bike then instead of running her around in the car. Try doing your weekly shopping on a bike.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I'll just tell my 86 years old Mum to get on her bike then instead of running her around in the car.

Worth a shot. If you are of working age can walk two flights of stair unaided, you ought to be a cycle 4 miles.

Try doing your weekly shopping on a bike.

I do. Week in, week out.
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I would guess it would depend on the levels of congestion. In the absence of congestion it may not be necessary to have shared transport. If there is congestion then the system could enforce a connection with a high capacity fixed route service. I am assuming that there would be an intelligent demand management system which selects the optimal route for all driverless vehicles, and whether it is beneficial to share or not.

This what I want: cars to be fitted with intelligent demand. You plan your route and if the central computer decides the road route is too busy, you find alternative methods.

We already demand management in other forms of transport. Variable pricing and reservation systems control demand on buses and trains.

 

[radamfi]

I'll just tell my 86 years old Mum to get on her bike then instead of running her around in the car. Try doing your weekly shopping on a bike.

You would be surprised to see what can be carried by bike. Dutch cyclists can be seen carrying lots of shopping in a trolley attached to the rear.

 

[Zoe]

This what I want: cars to be fitted with intelligent demand. You plan your route and if the central computer decides the road route is too busy, you find alternative methods.

No you don't, the car would be self-driving. You would have no say in it.

 

[shinkansen1966]

No you don't, the car would be self-driving. You would have no say in it.

Good.

The sooner people realise that complete freedom of travel is privileged and not a right, the better.

We can't be completely sure sure how much there's left in the ground to propel us all around in buses and cars and ferries and helicopters. So let's use what we do have left go a little further. Because you never know when you are really going to need it.
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You would be surprised to see what can be carried by bike. Dutch cyclists can be seen carrying lots of shopping in a trolley attached to the rear.

Agreed. Half the time I hear motorist find reasons not to drive, sound more like excuses, to me.

One of reasons we're fatter than we've ever been is we now burn fewer calories than we used to.

 

[Greenback]

One of reasons we're fatter than we've ever been is we now burn fewer calories than we used to.

Indeed. The idea of a big weekly shop is also a relatively recent phenomenon. It has been encouraged by the rise in big supermarkets, freezers and the resultant ability to fill up a car with enough food and drink to support a family until the next expedition.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Indeed. The idea of a big weekly shop is also a relatively recent phenomenon. It has been encouraged by the rise in big supermarkets, freezers and the resultant ability to fill up a car with enough food and drink to support a family until the next expedition.

And this is how I do my shopping on my push bike: pop into the shops on the way home from work several times a week. I buy the same items, but not huge amounts in one go. And I save £15 in bus fares to work and make some effort to keep this middle aged waste line under control.