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Ivanhoe line (via Coalville) - potential reopening?

William3000

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I disagree. The demand profile will be trips aggregating along the line to the terminus, or everything starting from origin and then distributing along the corridor. That's a profile better suited to heavy rail, light rail is for people hopping on and off frequently, making lots of overlapping short trips rather than collecting everybody for the run to the city center.

Light Rail is for linking different bits of an urban area together, and a tram train is for when you need more capacity on certain sections than a normal tramway can provide. Both should have a high density of stops and not run significantly beyond the end of the greater urban area. Also, given how the alignment doesn't really serve Swadlincote, if you're building something capable of street-running, I'd leave the existing alignment for significant lengths to better serve the potential demand.
The Burton-Leicester line travels between distinct towns with clear rural areas separating them, and often is quite far from the town centers. And all of this is before you start to address the operational & regulatory issues of integrating a tram-train or light rail system on to the national heavy rail network that may carry freight.
Agree - feels that this line in a former industrial area is of sufficient length to justify heavy rail like the Northumberland Line between Newcastle and Ashington

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That‘s not why the 1970s electrification stopped at Royston.
Wow - different economic times! Imagine economists concluding that today given Cambridge’s booming economy. But I recall in the 70s 80s traffic profiles were different. Long locomotive hauled trains from the North served places like Great Yarmouth and Harwich International while Cambridge was generally only served by two car DMUs

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That‘s not why the 1970s electrification stopped at Royston.
Wow - different economic times! Imagine economists concluding that today given Cambridge’s booming economy. But I recall in the 70s 80s traffic profiles were different. Long locomotive hauled trains from the North served places like Great Yarmouth and Harwich International while Cambridge was generally only served by two car DMUs
Both Okehampton and Borders have the double advantage of a) having one end of the line being a major station offering country-wide connections, and b) quite a bit of inbound tourism traffic.
Burton-upon-Trent combined with Leicester provide a pretty good geographical spread of connections. from Burton one can reach places as far afield as Edinburgh, Bournemouth, Reading, Plymouth, Cardiff, Sheffield, Derby, York, Newcastle, Birmingham, Gloucester, Oxford, and Bristol, while Leicester provides connections to Derby, Birmingham, Sheffield as well plus Stansted Airport, Cambridge, Peterborough, London, Nottingham, and Nuneaton.

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Both Okehampton and Borders have the double advantage of a) having one end of the line being a major station offering country-wide connections, and b) quite a bit of inbound tourism traffic.
Burton provides a huge variety of destinations. These are supplemented by Leicester surfing addition places not served by Burton-upon-Trent
 
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Bald Rick

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while Leicester provides connections to Derby, Birmingham, Sheffield as well plus Stansted Airport, Cambridge, Peterborough, London, Nottingham, and Nuneaton.

but the proposal doesnt see the line go to the existing Leicester station. And the last proposal put forward didn’t go to Burton either.
 
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daodao

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Could a siding be built just south of the junction between the line from Burton and the existing MML, ideally on the west side, for trains to/from Burton to reverse there? Any proposal to reopen the Ivanhoe line that doesn't incorporate running passenger trains to the existing Leicester London Road station would be suboptimal.
 

Dr Day

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@Bald Rick as you seem well informed on this one. Do any of the proposed solutions consist of a fully independent line, running on-street at the end (s)? So lower operating costs (including staff) and construction costs of 'light rail' versus 'mainline heavy rail capable of interfacing with freight and other big trains' but still the benefits of connectivity into central Leicester? Or is this 'not really an urban tram' and 'not really a proper train' just too hybrid a concept for a route of this length? And/or too small to be viable without the synergies of being part of GBR signalling, depots and HQ type functions?
 

Farigiraf

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usual comment for use of “no brainers” applies
There are no real no-brainers left tbh, all the ones that haven't been done yet have some major work required that nobody wants to pay for. But among these, if we look at potential reopenings that would have a significant impact on large numbers of people, Ivanhoe has the potential to outperform pretty much every regional line reopening since privatisation, as the population catchment is so high.

How you make the most of the line is a tough question to answer though. On paper it's fairly straightforward (provided that a link to Leicester main station is funded): the line passes right through the middle of Coalville town centre and gets fairly close to central Ashby as well. Given how rare it is to be able to affordably build stations in urban centres, this would be a great opportunity. The issue is that these large intermediate towns are low density, car dependent sprawling places, without very much tourism potential. Therefore without much potential inbound traffic to these towns, and everyone wanting to drive to the station anyway, chances are that a centrally located station (and the car park that would be demanded alongside it) would do more harm than good. This means that until declining Leicestershire towns experience some sort of cycle/bus renaissance, you'd probably positively affect more people's lives by going for out-of-town parkway stations with enormous car parks - though this obviously isn't particularly forward-thinking so it'd be fairly heart-wrenching to watch them go for this option while passing up on the rare opportunity to build a 21st century city centre station (that isn't tunneled).

Furthermore the fairly abysmal urban transportation in Leicester makes the 'Cardiff model' fairly attractive - where you build a short section of urban tramway to complement a suburban rail project, a compromise solution that sacrifices passenger comfort, long-distance rail integration and network simplicity in order to get some sort of tram system underway in the city. In an ideal world, Leicester should just have a separate tram system handling the urban/suburban traffic, leaving the Ivanhoe to be a regional connector. But we're not in an ideal world, and I don't see Leicester getting funding for a standalone tram anytime soon, so I could see the Ivanhoe as an opportunity. With no guarantees of a decent alternative in the future, it would seem counterintuitive to not build as many stations in west Leicester on the Ivanhoe as possible, even if it slows down the line.

However, IMO given the great long-distance connections at both ends of the line, I think the negatives of going for tram-train may outweigh the positives here, unless there's a genuine guarantee that a proper Leicester city tram network would be developed out of the Ivanhoe tram-train section (think Sheffield but in reverse). Plus, even if we disregard the journey time penallty, running on-street through most of western Leicester would mean avoiding the King Power Stadium, which is deserving of a rail connection, and I don't really see how you could get a tram-train from the mainline south of the stadium into Leicester city centre without anyway building that very expensive heavy rail spur.
 

AlastairFraser

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I wonder if the required north facing curve into Leicester could be funded by residential redevelopment of the industrial estate.
The site is fairly large and plenty of apartments could be built in the area north of the railway line and south of Putney Road.
Potentially you could also incorporate student halls and hotels into the mix, given the proximity of the King Power Stadium and the University (indeed, on the eastern side of the MML a few hundred metres from the existing junction is a large block of student accomodation, Nixon Court).
 

HSTEd

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Is a heavy rail chord cheaper or more expensive than a ~2300m tramway from adjacent to Leicester station? Such a tramway also wouldn't consume valuable paths in and out of Leicester.

Even if you don't want 750V electrification on the railway section diesel tram trains are quite common in Germany.
 

Zomboid

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Battery tram trains are quite common in south Wales.
And the West Midlands.

I don't see why a West to North chord would be needed, should the line reopen. Just put a reversing siding in. Yes it'll slow things down a bit compared to a direct chord, but it's also on the correct side of "impossible".
 

zwk500

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I don't see why a West to North chord would be needed, should the line reopen. Just put a reversing siding in. Yes it'll slow things down a bit compared to a direct chord, but it's also on the correct side of "impossible".
Just put a platform on it and you've probably recovered more demand than the time extension costs.
 

Zomboid

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Just put a platform on it and you've probably recovered more demand than the time extension costs.
Looks fairly low density residential round there, but if you've got to stop anyway and it's a single platform it probably won't cost a lot in the context of the wider scheme.
 

zwk500

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Looks fairly low density residential round there, but if you've got to stop anyway and it's a single platform it probably won't cost a lot in the context of the wider scheme.
There looks to be a lot more potential passengers around Knighton Lane East area than, say, the potential custom around the station locations at Moira or Castle Gresley/Mount Pleasant (for Swadlincote).

I suspect most people in the catchment of this theoretical station wouldn't use it for trips up to Leicester city centre, but rather for journeys where they change at Leicester onto a longer distance service to London or Birmigham (mainly).
 

AlastairFraser

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Is a heavy rail chord cheaper or more expensive than a ~2300m tramway from adjacent to Leicester station? Such a tramway also wouldn't consume valuable paths in and out of Leicester.

Even if you don't want 750V electrification on the railway section diesel tram trains are quite common in Germany.
A bi mode diesel/battery train would be an interesting combo - battery on street, and diesel on heavy rail metals. Maybe Siemens or Stadler would build one.
Tramway via Aylestone Road - Almond Road - Welford Road - Tigers Way - Waterloo Way to the station wouldn't be a bad start to a wider Leicester tram train network.
The city definitely qualifies for regeneration funding, and a turnback for tram-trains by the football stadium could provide extra match day capacity for both the football and rugby stadium.
There's plenty of space for a depot near Desford brickworks if you wanted it on brownfield land, and you could build a fast charger for the battery section, as seen in Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I suspect most people in the catchment of this theoretical station wouldn't use it for trips up to Leicester city centre, but rather for journeys where they change at Leicester onto a longer distance service to London or Birmigham (mainly).
If you extended the Cross City line to Burton via a station at Alrewas (I believe it's already being considered by regional authorities in the Midlands at some point), those at the Swadlincote/Ashby/Coalville end would head that way to Brum and points west.
Even if you just had the existing XC route into Brum from Burton, a half decent connection at Burton would make connections to Brum better heading west.
I agree about London though.
 
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zwk500

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If you extended the Cross City line to Burton via a station at Alrewas (I believe it's already being considered by regional authorities in the Midlands at some point), those at the Swadlincote/Ashby/Coalville end would head that way to Brum and points west.
Even if you just had the existing XC route into Brum from Burton, a half decent connection at Burton would make connections to Brum better heading west.
I agree about London though.
I was talking about a Leicester South/Knighton station, so everybody there who's heading for Brum will Change at Leicester (midland).

In the context of Leicester-Burton I think a Cross-City Line extension is a red herring, because the journey time on the stopper to Birmingham would be nearly an hour, whereas the XC is 23-30 mins, so unless the connection times are particularly awful, it will always be fast to wait.
(Slight tangent - the extension of Cross-City to Burton would be to allow the places between Birmingham and Lichfield better interchange for travel north, rather than making them head into Brum and back out again, and to allow Alrewas to have a direct service to Brum without driving to Lichfield or Burton).
 

AlastairFraser

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I was talking about a Leicester South/Knighton station, so everybody there who's heading for Brum will Change at Leicester (midland).

In the context of Leicester-Burton I think a Cross-City Line extension is a red herring, because the journey time on the stopper to Birmingham would be nearly an hour, whereas the XC is 23-30 mins, so unless the connection times are particularly awful, it will always be fast to wait.
(Slight tangent - the extension of Cross-City to Burton would be to allow the places between Birmingham and Lichfield better interchange for travel north, rather than making them head into Brum and back out again, and to allow Alrewas to have a direct service to Brum without driving to Lichfield or Burton).
Ah, makes more sense.
I get your point about journey times on the Cross City line, but I'd also highlight there's also a fair number of jobs in parts of northern Birmingham like Sutton Coldfield/Aston that might draw in commuters from places like Swadlincote and Ashby.
Of course, that is very dependant on good connections.
 

zwk500

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Does anything currently use the Leicester to Burton line?
This week had 2-3 actual services from the Leicester end (serving the quarries at that end) per day, with a couple of light locos on top.

The Burton end has no traffic showing in the data for the last week and 'OOU*' or 'GONE' in all the berths on OpenTrainTimes/Traksy. AIUI there's persistent cable theft issues at that end and it wasn't worth replacing it for the limited traffic available.

(Data Source: Vail Data Berth History)
 

joieman

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This week had 2-3 actual services from the Leicester end (serving the quarries at that end) per day, with a couple of light locos on top.

The Burton end has no traffic showing in the data for the last week and 'OOU*' or 'GONE' in all the berths on OpenTrainTimes/Traksy. AIUI there's persistent cable theft issues at that end and it wasn't worth replacing it for the limited traffic available.

(Data Source: Vail Data Berth History)
The Burton end just seems to have fallen out of use, it's reportedly badly overgrown in places
 

HOOVER29

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I walked over the line at the Upper Packington Road bridge in Ashby De La Zouch yesterday & the undergrowth was substantial.
Looking towards the long closed station down the straight towards Burton I couldn’t see the station building!
Looking towards Coalville it’s not too bad until the line passes over the A42 by the former Lounge open cast site, after which the cutting literally disappears in growth.

Very sad to see.
 

overthere 2

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70014IronDuke said:

"Government support for the Ivanhoe Line's reinstatement through South Derbyshire"​

Ha ha! I like the way the journo calls it the Ivanhoe Line as if it was always called that. Rather like the term "Varsity Line", I think both terms were only coined in the 1990s - nobody called them these names when they were open.

Just out of interest what were they called before or did they not have a "Name" and if they didn't why were they given the names that they were given?



2001olib said:
IMO the Ivanhoe line is ripe for light rail or tram train. Light enough to negate significant strengthenong work to be done to the alignment to mitigate the mining subsidence in the area. But heavy enough to be able to run at decent speeds and to be a comfortable enough replacement for the Burton - Leicester bus.

yoyothehobo said:
The amount of works required to the earthworks alone makes this a non-starter.

I have seen occasional articles about the line over the years and while there has been problems with vandalism and theft, the line as far as I can gather is structurally sound both for freight (and subject to necessary upgrades) passenger?



Johnnie2Sheds said:
On topic: Chances of a reopening of the rest of it? Nil. AFAIR neither the city or county council wants it.

InTheEastMids said:
Certainly agree at this point. The various statements are all in the "supportive but non-commital" mode. To see any signs of optimism, I'd expect to see EMCA (which does not include Leicestershire), Leicester City and the new Leicestershire unitary authority to come together to form a partnership to effectively lobby for funding and drive things forward (the EWR local authorities did this from 1995 and yet, here we are!)

I don't know why it went missing but in post #193 I had a sentence saying: "That they are supportive but because the line goes through so many different local authorities each are worried that they might end up not only paying for their "bit" but somebody else's "bit" as well.



Farigiraf said:
How you make the most of the line is a tough question to answer though. On paper it's fairly straightforward (provided that a link to Leicester main station is funded): the line passes right through the middle of Coalville town centre and gets fairly close to central Ashby as well. Given how rare it is to be able to affordably build stations in urban centres, this would be a great opportunity. The issue is that these large intermediate towns are low density, car dependent sprawling places, without very much tourism potential. Therefore without much potential inbound traffic to these towns, and everyone wanting to drive to the station anyway, chances are that a centrally located station (and the car park that would be demanded alongside it) would do more harm than good. This means that until declining Leicestershire towns experience some sort of cycle/bus renaissance, you'd probably positively affect more people's lives by going for out-of-town parkway stations with enormous car parks - though this obviously isn't particularly forward-thinking so it'd be fairly heart-wrenching to watch them go for this option while passing up on the rare opportunity to build a 21st century city centre station (that isn't tunneled).

Following the line on the National Library of Scotland side by side map shows that if you put the stations back exactly where they were originally the only ones that would have a car park are Coalville, possibly Bagworth & Ellistown and Meynell's gorse (using the Park and Ride) but instead of using this as a negative and saying about out of town stations. It should be seen as a positive.

As it would be the perfect catalyst to start a (walking) cycle/bus renaissance, because all the stations are either slap bang in the centre of where they would serve or are very close so most people would be within a reasonable walking/cycling distance of the station and the chances are that bus routes already run on the roads next to the station sites or very close so would only need a minor diversion.

Following the line on Google map's and looking at the sponsored pins there are lots of attractions: www.snibstoncolliery.org.uk, www.visitconkers.com, www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/ashby-de-la-zouch-castle/ etc and while some are a fair distance from the possible station sites it shows that if the local authorities (provide dedicated foot /cycle paths if practical), tourist attractions (cycle racks, how to get here by train, and if necessary bus on their websites), and local bus companies (connections) worked together then there is a great potential for tourist's

Also the line runs slap bang through the centre of the national forest: www.nationalforest.org/explore (scroll down for map). So connect each station with a network of foot/cycle paths through the forest and then at the weekends/school holidays offer a hop on/off pass for a cheap rate or for a small supplement, free entry to local tourist attraction's and it should make a decent amount of money.

Also work with Leicester city football club on a deal that if the fans travel by train they get a free burger and a soft drink then any fans travelling from the West would use the train so helping cut traffic congestion, it would also help clear crowds after a match because you would be splitting them to different station's rather than them all going to Leicester station.

The best, easiest quickest and crucially cheapest option would be build basic temporary stations on the original sites. After a year or so put a survey through everyone's door with in a certain radius and ask if they are happy with the stations where they are or if they wont them moved and give a couple of options.

Also ask local GPs if they are seeing less overweight patients because they are getting out of their cars and walking/cycling to the station, the councils to see if there is less traffic and pollution again because people are leaving their cars at home to walk/cycle/bus to the station and jobcentre's are they seeing less unemployed people because it is easier/possible to get to work particularly to all the "sheds" that are dotted next to the line (so spending money in one place but getting it back from not having to spend it in other places) then either keep them where they are and build properly or shift them to out of town and again build properly.



2001olib said:
IMO the Ivanhoe line is ripe for light rail or tram train. Light enough to negate significant strengthenong work to be done to the alignment to mitigate the mining subsidence in the area. But heavy enough to be able to run at decent speeds and to be a comfortable enough replacement for the Burton - Leicester bus.

HSTEd said:
I'd argue that the tram-train has demonstrated an ability to operate in interurban environments in Germany as part of extended S-Bahn networks. I doubt this line, as an example, would be a particularly high speed operation at the best of times, and 60mph/100km/h of off-the-shelf tram trains may easily match heavy rail timings on it.

Beyond that, I'm not sure we should decide against such solutions on the basis that some indeterminate freight traffic may resume at some point in the indeterminate future.

I have no problem with a light rail/tram track's being built on NON rail alignments but they should never be built on old rail alignments because if they are needed for heavy rail in the future then there will always be a battle about moving them and it would add massively to the overall cost if you had to demolish the light rail/tram line to rebuild heavy rail so potentially making re-opening the heavy rail line unviable.

Following the line there are numerous "sheds" dotted along the whole line and no doubt in future years they will mushroom so while it may save money now (light rail, trams etc) there is a good chance in the future that anything done would either need to be modified or ripped out and start again if freight wanted to start using the line again or worse freight would be told "No" and would say: "Fine, we will carry on running lorrys" which would be bad all round.
 

Farigiraf

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Following the line on the National Library of Scotland side by side map shows that if you put the stations back exactly where they were originally the only ones that would have a car park are Coalville, possibly Bagworth & Ellistown and Meynell's gorse (using the Park and Ride) but instead of using this as a negative and saying about out of town stations. It should be seen as a positive.

As it would be the perfect catalyst to start a (walking) cycle/bus renaissance, because all the stations are either slap bang in the centre of where they would serve or are very close so most people would be within a reasonable walking/cycling distance of the station and the chances are that bus routes already run on the roads next to the station sites or very close so would only need a minor diversion.
I agree completely, and I admire your optimism. But take a look at political polling in places like Coalville and Ashby DLZ - is this the kind of voterbase that would be happy to support a rail reinstatement without the ability to park your massive car right by the entrance of your local station?

I fear that like the Northumberland line, on the currently limited budget for rail investment, your best hope of getting a well-used railway is pandering to the locals to some extent and going all in on the P&R aspect, as otherwise the stations just wouldn't be that well used while parking in Leicester is readily available. If you want a well used railway that's also built in a sustainable and forward-thinking way, you'd need a lot of money (and political consensus) for the necessary active travel improvements which I just don't believe there is. I'd love to be proven wrong though!

Following the line on Google map's and looking at the sponsored pins there are lots of attractions: www.snibstoncolliery.org.uk, www.visitconkers.com, www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/ashby-de-la-zouch-castle/ etc and while some are a fair distance from the possible station sites it shows that if the local authorities (provide dedicated foot /cycle paths if practical), tourist attractions (cycle racks, how to get here by train, and if necessary bus on their websites), and local bus companies (connections) worked together then there is a great potential for tourist's

Also the line runs slap bang through the centre of the national forest: www.nationalforest.org/explore (scroll down for map). So connect each station with a network of foot/cycle paths through the forest and then at the weekends/school holidays offer a hop on/off pass for a cheap rate or for a small supplement, free entry to local tourist attraction's and it should make a decent amount of money.
I don't think Moira is ever getting a station so visiting Conkers via rail wouldn't be practical, but the others would indeed be relatively easy to access. It's great that there is some tourism potential, which I really didn't expect from a line going through seemingly mundane bits of Leicestershire, and there's definitely merit in encouraging a more diverse userbase if the line were to reopen, but ultimately what'll make or break the whole thing will just be predicted commuting figures to Leicester. I may again be jumping to conclusions but I doubt there are many work or leisure options in places like Coalville or Swadlincote, so a 1-seat ride to Leicester city centre can be quite the growth accelerator.

I have no problem with a light rail/tram track's being built on NON rail alignments but they should never be built on old rail alignments because if they are needed for heavy rail in the future then there will always be a battle about moving them and it would add massively to the overall cost if you had to demolish the light rail/tram line to rebuild heavy rail so potentially making re-opening the heavy rail line unviable.
I think that routes like the Oldham Loop or South Shields metro branch have a lot more potential as mass transit lines than whatever could've been done with them as heavy rail routes. But yes, Leicester-Burton is a regional route where I'd say tram-trains really would only be worth considering if there wasn't any other way of getting the reopening approved. If any lessons can be learned from South Wales, it's that 45 mins on a tram with no loos isn't a vote winner.

Don't forget CrossCountry interchange possibilities at Burton, as an easy interchange point to an Edinburgh-Plymouth service is quite valuable, particularly while interchanging at Birmingham New Street isn't too straightforward. This kind of usage (including luggage and some expectation of relaxation) isn't what trams are suitable for either.
 
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