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Ivanhoe line (via Coalville) - potential reopening?

William3000

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I disagree. The demand profile will be trips aggregating along the line to the terminus, or everything starting from origin and then distributing along the corridor. That's a profile better suited to heavy rail, light rail is for people hopping on and off frequently, making lots of overlapping short trips rather than collecting everybody for the run to the city center.

Light Rail is for linking different bits of an urban area together, and a tram train is for when you need more capacity on certain sections than a normal tramway can provide. Both should have a high density of stops and not run significantly beyond the end of the greater urban area. Also, given how the alignment doesn't really serve Swadlincote, if you're building something capable of street-running, I'd leave the existing alignment for significant lengths to better serve the potential demand.
The Burton-Leicester line travels between distinct towns with clear rural areas separating them, and often is quite far from the town centers. And all of this is before you start to address the operational & regulatory issues of integrating a tram-train or light rail system on to the national heavy rail network that may carry freight.
Agree - feels that this line in a former industrial area is of sufficient length to justify heavy rail like the Northumberland Line between Newcastle and Ashington

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That‘s not why the 1970s electrification stopped at Royston.
Wow - different economic times! Imagine economists concluding that today given Cambridge’s booming economy. But I recall in the 70s 80s traffic profiles were different. Long locomotive hauled trains from the North served places like Great Yarmouth and Harwich International while Cambridge was generally only served by two car DMUs

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That‘s not why the 1970s electrification stopped at Royston.
Wow - different economic times! Imagine economists concluding that today given Cambridge’s booming economy. But I recall in the 70s 80s traffic profiles were different. Long locomotive hauled trains from the North served places like Great Yarmouth and Harwich International while Cambridge was generally only served by two car DMUs
Both Okehampton and Borders have the double advantage of a) having one end of the line being a major station offering country-wide connections, and b) quite a bit of inbound tourism traffic.
Burton-upon-Trent combined with Leicester provide a pretty good geographical spread of connections. from Burton one can reach places as far afield as Edinburgh, Bournemouth, Reading, Plymouth, Cardiff, Sheffield, Derby, York, Newcastle, Birmingham, Gloucester, Oxford, and Bristol, while Leicester provides connections to Derby, Birmingham, Sheffield as well plus Stansted Airport, Cambridge, Peterborough, London, Nottingham, and Nuneaton.

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Both Okehampton and Borders have the double advantage of a) having one end of the line being a major station offering country-wide connections, and b) quite a bit of inbound tourism traffic.
Burton provides a huge variety of destinations. These are supplemented by Leicester surfing addition places not served by Burton-upon-Trent
 
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Bald Rick

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while Leicester provides connections to Derby, Birmingham, Sheffield as well plus Stansted Airport, Cambridge, Peterborough, London, Nottingham, and Nuneaton.

but the proposal doesnt see the line go to the existing Leicester station. And the last proposal put forward didn’t go to Burton either.
 
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daodao

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Could a siding be built just south of the junction between the line from Burton and the existing MML, ideally on the west side, for trains to/from Burton to reverse there? Any proposal to reopen the Ivanhoe line that doesn't incorporate running passenger trains to the existing Leicester London Road station would be suboptimal.
 

Dr Day

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@Bald Rick as you seem well informed on this one. Do any of the proposed solutions consist of a fully independent line, running on-street at the end (s)? So lower operating costs (including staff) and construction costs of 'light rail' versus 'mainline heavy rail capable of interfacing with freight and other big trains' but still the benefits of connectivity into central Leicester? Or is this 'not really an urban tram' and 'not really a proper train' just too hybrid a concept for a route of this length? And/or too small to be viable without the synergies of being part of GBR signalling, depots and HQ type functions?
 

Farigiraf

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usual comment for use of “no brainers” applies
There are no real no-brainers left tbh, all the ones that haven't been done yet have some major work required that nobody wants to pay for. But among these, if we look at potential reopenings that would have a significant impact on large numbers of people, Ivanhoe has the potential to outperform pretty much every regional line reopening since privatisation, as the population catchment is so high.

How you make the most of the line is a tough question to answer though. On paper it's fairly straightforward (provided that a link to Leicester main station is funded): the line passes right through the middle of Coalville town centre and gets fairly close to central Ashby as well. Given how rare it is to be able to affordably build stations in urban centres, this would be a great opportunity. The issue is that these large intermediate towns are low density, car dependent sprawling places, without very much tourism potential. Therefore without much potential inbound traffic to these towns, and everyone wanting to drive to the station anyway, chances are that a centrally located station (and the car park that would be demanded alongside it) would do more harm than good. This means that until declining Leicestershire towns experience some sort of cycle/bus renaissance, you'd probably positively affect more people's lives by going for out-of-town parkway stations with enormous car parks - though this obviously isn't particularly forward-thinking so it'd be fairly heart-wrenching to watch them go for this option while passing up on the rare opportunity to build a 21st century city centre station (that isn't tunneled).

Furthermore the fairly abysmal urban transportation in Leicester makes the 'Cardiff model' fairly attractive - where you build a short section of urban tramway to complement a suburban rail project, a compromise solution that sacrifices passenger comfort, long-distance rail integration and network simplicity in order to get some sort of tram system underway in the city. In an ideal world, Leicester should just have a separate tram system handling the urban/suburban traffic, leaving the Ivanhoe to be a regional connector. But we're not in an ideal world, and I don't see Leicester getting funding for a standalone tram anytime soon, so I could see the Ivanhoe as an opportunity. With no guarantees of a decent alternative in the future, it would seem counterintuitive to not build as many stations in west Leicester on the Ivanhoe as possible, even if it slows down the line.

However, IMO given the great long-distance connections at both ends of the line, I think the negatives of going for tram-train may outweigh the positives here, unless there's a genuine guarantee that a proper Leicester city tram network would be developed out of the Ivanhoe tram-train section (think Sheffield but in reverse). Plus, even if we disregard the journey time penallty, running on-street through most of western Leicester would mean avoiding the King Power Stadium, which is deserving of a rail connection, and I don't really see how you could get a tram-train from the mainline south of the stadium into Leicester city centre without anyway building that very expensive heavy rail spur.
 

AlastairFraser

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I wonder if the required north facing curve into Leicester could be funded by residential redevelopment of the industrial estate.
The site is fairly large and plenty of apartments could be built in the area north of the railway line and south of Putney Road.
Potentially you could also incorporate student halls and hotels into the mix, given the proximity of the King Power Stadium and the University (indeed, on the eastern side of the MML a few hundred metres from the existing junction is a large block of student accomodation, Nixon Court).
 

HSTEd

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Is a heavy rail chord cheaper or more expensive than a ~2300m tramway from adjacent to Leicester station? Such a tramway also wouldn't consume valuable paths in and out of Leicester.

Even if you don't want 750V electrification on the railway section diesel tram trains are quite common in Germany.
 

Zomboid

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Battery tram trains are quite common in south Wales.
And the West Midlands.

I don't see why a West to North chord would be needed, should the line reopen. Just put a reversing siding in. Yes it'll slow things down a bit compared to a direct chord, but it's also on the correct side of "impossible".
 

zwk500

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I don't see why a West to North chord would be needed, should the line reopen. Just put a reversing siding in. Yes it'll slow things down a bit compared to a direct chord, but it's also on the correct side of "impossible".
Just put a platform on it and you've probably recovered more demand than the time extension costs.
 

Zomboid

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Just put a platform on it and you've probably recovered more demand than the time extension costs.
Looks fairly low density residential round there, but if you've got to stop anyway and it's a single platform it probably won't cost a lot in the context of the wider scheme.
 

zwk500

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Looks fairly low density residential round there, but if you've got to stop anyway and it's a single platform it probably won't cost a lot in the context of the wider scheme.
There looks to be a lot more potential passengers around Knighton Lane East area than, say, the potential custom around the station locations at Moira or Castle Gresley/Mount Pleasant (for Swadlincote).

I suspect most people in the catchment of this theoretical station wouldn't use it for trips up to Leicester city centre, but rather for journeys where they change at Leicester onto a longer distance service to London or Birmigham (mainly).
 

AlastairFraser

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Is a heavy rail chord cheaper or more expensive than a ~2300m tramway from adjacent to Leicester station? Such a tramway also wouldn't consume valuable paths in and out of Leicester.

Even if you don't want 750V electrification on the railway section diesel tram trains are quite common in Germany.
A bi mode diesel/battery train would be an interesting combo - battery on street, and diesel on heavy rail metals. Maybe Siemens or Stadler would build one.
Tramway via Aylestone Road - Almond Road - Welford Road - Tigers Way - Waterloo Way to the station wouldn't be a bad start to a wider Leicester tram train network.
The city definitely qualifies for regeneration funding, and a turnback for tram-trains by the football stadium could provide extra match day capacity for both the football and rugby stadium.
There's plenty of space for a depot near Desford brickworks if you wanted it on brownfield land, and you could build a fast charger for the battery section, as seen in Birmingham.

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I suspect most people in the catchment of this theoretical station wouldn't use it for trips up to Leicester city centre, but rather for journeys where they change at Leicester onto a longer distance service to London or Birmigham (mainly).
If you extended the Cross City line to Burton via a station at Alrewas (I believe it's already being considered by regional authorities in the Midlands at some point), those at the Swadlincote/Ashby/Coalville end would head that way to Brum and points west.
Even if you just had the existing XC route into Brum from Burton, a half decent connection at Burton would make connections to Brum better heading west.
I agree about London though.
 
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zwk500

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If you extended the Cross City line to Burton via a station at Alrewas (I believe it's already being considered by regional authorities in the Midlands at some point), those at the Swadlincote/Ashby/Coalville end would head that way to Brum and points west.
Even if you just had the existing XC route into Brum from Burton, a half decent connection at Burton would make connections to Brum better heading west.
I agree about London though.
I was talking about a Leicester South/Knighton station, so everybody there who's heading for Brum will Change at Leicester (midland).

In the context of Leicester-Burton I think a Cross-City Line extension is a red herring, because the journey time on the stopper to Birmingham would be nearly an hour, whereas the XC is 23-30 mins, so unless the connection times are particularly awful, it will always be fast to wait.
(Slight tangent - the extension of Cross-City to Burton would be to allow the places between Birmingham and Lichfield better interchange for travel north, rather than making them head into Brum and back out again, and to allow Alrewas to have a direct service to Brum without driving to Lichfield or Burton).
 

AlastairFraser

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I was talking about a Leicester South/Knighton station, so everybody there who's heading for Brum will Change at Leicester (midland).

In the context of Leicester-Burton I think a Cross-City Line extension is a red herring, because the journey time on the stopper to Birmingham would be nearly an hour, whereas the XC is 23-30 mins, so unless the connection times are particularly awful, it will always be fast to wait.
(Slight tangent - the extension of Cross-City to Burton would be to allow the places between Birmingham and Lichfield better interchange for travel north, rather than making them head into Brum and back out again, and to allow Alrewas to have a direct service to Brum without driving to Lichfield or Burton).
Ah, makes more sense.
I get your point about journey times on the Cross City line, but I'd also highlight there's also a fair number of jobs in parts of northern Birmingham like Sutton Coldfield/Aston that might draw in commuters from places like Swadlincote and Ashby.
Of course, that is very dependant on good connections.
 

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