Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[GraphitProjekt]

.. and 10 years in, when their battery range is depleted to 80 miles, they'll do Micklefield to Brough instead!

or actually be a good justification for incremental electrification from Micklefield to Hambleton Jcts, or Selby etc.. - keep going until their range is almost all gone and they fleet can be electric only.

i believe this is literally the Scottish approach, and rather sensible. The batteries allow them 10 or so extra years to complete full electrification at a slow and steady rate, and in the end they can just bin the batteries when they start to get old. (Or more likely, retain a few to be trickle charged for limp home contingency)

 

[AverageJoe]

Surprised at some of the disappointment from members. I think overall it’s positive.

It will take some time to see them in service but 802’s and 185’s are still decent trains and currently seeing internal improvements to keep them up to date.

Some comments on the idea of them having a battery. I again think this is positive. It allows get out of jail room for use of diversions if something goes wrong.

And as we know OHLE can and does fail. Having 90 miles in the tank to get you home is a great thing.

Regarding the doors. The amount of times I’m left frustrated watching people all want to exit and board the train from the same door whilst other doors are not even being used, I’m not sure if having more doors would make that much of a difference in most cases.

Level platform access and a completely level floor throughout will also mean much less time at stations waiting for ramps etc so overall I think this is great news.

 

[Spartacus]

Indeed. We complain when platforms are built which don't allow for future expansion... and then we complain when they do! Pick which one to complain about, folks.

Exactly. There's a lot of people, including some who I'd hope to know better such as Gareth Dennis, who seem to be more caught up in complaining about things these units AREN'T mean to be, so obviously can't do. They aren't meant to be hugely long London commuter people movers, they're not meant to be long distance 125mph express (they'd lose a whole SIX minutes if running to Edinburgh, a route they'd never be planned to be on anyway!), they're replacements for the 185s which are perfect for the almost semi-fast sort of work away from the WC & ECMLs that makes up most of their work.

 

[AverageJoe]

So the 110mph speed for these new trains is adequate for where they are going to be operating?

No one seems to complain about the speeds 185 operate at which is 100mph.

 

[Class 317]

.. and 10 years in, when their battery range is depleted to 80 miles, they'll do Micklefield to Brough instead!

or actually be a good justification for incremental electrification from Micklefield to Hambleton Jcts, or Selby etc.. - keep going until their range is almost all gone and they fleet can be electric only.

More than likely the 90 miles is contracted range including battery degradation after a set point in time eg 10 years. After this a replacement of the batteries is likely to offer either reduced qty and weight of new batteries, extended range or a combination of both.

 

[quantinghome]

Exactly. There's a lot of people, including some who I'd hope to know better such as Gareth Dennis, who seem to be more caught up in complaining about things these units AREN'T mean to be, so obviously can't do.

Odd considering he's such a cheerleader for level boarding.

They aren't meant to be hugely long London commuter people movers, they're not meant to be long distance 125mph express (they'd lose a whole SIX minutes if running to Edinburgh, a route they'd never be planned to be on anyway!), they're replacements for the 185s which are perfect for the almost semi-fast sort of work away from the WC & ECMLs that makes up most of their work.

The future Transpennine services are split into 4 fasts and 2 semi-fasts per hour. So the new trains will be doing some of the fast services through the core. But that will have a top linespeed of 110mph so they're fine.

My main concern is capacity but if they can have added carriages in the future that should be fine - provided they don't turn out to be a one-off design like the 185s...

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's 25 miles between the wire ends via Castleford.
Significantly less than York-Scarborough or Micklefield-Hull (both 42 miles) or Northallerton-Saltburn (34 miles).
It's also a gap of 36 miles between Miles Platting and Heaton Lodge via Hebden Bridge, so these BEMU trains should be able to divert via the Calder Valley when necessary.

Ah thank you. Good to hear that they should be able to divert via the Calder Valley route as well!

Isn't it due to go to Northern at some point? It's the kinda thing that's ideal for this kind of train, I'm sure Northern have put out to tender for some.

I wasn't aware it was transferring to Northern, do you know when its transferring?

 

[Spartacus]

Ah thank you. Good to hear that they should be able to divert via the Calder Valley route as well!

I wasn't aware it was transferring to Northern, do you know when its transferring?

I don't think it's planned before Northern get their new units, though if these come first I wonder if some 185s would be spared to work them.

 

[brad465]

If it turns out this order isn't enough, how easily could an add-on be ordered? I would hope quite easily before production begins, and maybe early on in production, but presumably much harder once the 29 are nearly finished.

 

[driverd]

Cons:
- Quite likely less comfortable than the 185s. Interior looks like one of an outer-suburban commuter train.

I'm confident that there are shady torture chambers with more comfortable seating than 185s, so I'll come back to you on that one!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ah thank you. Good to hear that they should be able to divert via the Calder Valley route as well!
I wasn't aware it was transferring to Northern, do you know when its transferring?

The intention was for Northern to take over the TPE stopper Manchester-Huddersfield, with new EMUs for which a tender is out.
Obviously tied to wiring completion Stalybridge-Huddersfield, which is the last job on the TRU project (no specific date yet).
It's not clear what the impact on Northern's plans is now that TPE has firmed up its BEMU order for the same route.
It will all probably be one GBR setup anyway before the new trains arrive.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Any more recent examples ?
Or trains not built in the UK ?

The Citadis trams built for Nottingham in 2014.

 

[TRAX]

The Citadis trams built for Nottingham in 2014.

Have they been problematic ? The Citadis trams usually aren’t…

 

[WelshBluebird]

So TPE have a bunch of 20 year old DMUs that still work fine yet are getting new trains, whilst GWR are having to deal with much older DMUs but seeminly have no hope of getting a new fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

So TPE have a bunch of 20 year old DMUs that still work fine yet are getting new trains, whilst GWR are having to deal with much older DMUs but seeminly have no hope of getting a new fleet.

New trains to suit upgraded infrastructure; GWR doesn't have an equivalent to the TransPennine Route Upgrade.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The intention was for Northern to take over the TPE stopper Manchester-Huddersfield, with new EMUs for which a tender is out.
Obviously tied to wiring completion Stalybridge-Huddersfield, which is the last job on the TRU project (no specific date yet).
It's not clear what the impact on Northern's plans is now that TPE has firmed up its BEMU order for the same route.
It will all probably be one GBR setup anyway before the new trains arrive.

The TPE order is also tied to the electrification of Stalybridge-Huddersfield. The Manchester-Huddersfield stopper currently continues to York via Castleford, do you mean that Northern plan to takeover the full route to York or just the Manchester-Huddersfield section?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 15:19 ==

I don't think it's planned before Northern get their new units, though if these come first I wonder if some 185s would be spared to work them.

Out of interest, when are the new Northern trains expected to enter service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

New trains to suit upgraded infrastructure; GWR doesn't have an equivalent to the TransPennine Route Upgrade.

Well, they had brand new 80x and 387s for the GW electrification.
In the north, Northern is the TOC operating many life-expired Sprinters like GWR, but they do have a tender out for their replacement.

 

[800001]

So TPE have a bunch of 20 year old DMUs that still work fine yet are getting new trains, whilst GWR are having to deal with much older DMUs but seeminly have no hope of getting a new fleet.

New trains for ungraded infrastructure that will be delivered in 8 years time when the current trains are coming up to 30 years old.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TPE order is also tied to the electrification of Stalybridge-Huddersfield. The Manchester-Huddersfield stopper currently continues to York via Castleford, do you mean that Northern plan to takeover the full route to York or just the Manchester-Huddersfield section?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 15:19 ==


Out of interest, when are the new Northern trains expected to enter service?

2031 at the earliest I think (the route won't be wired any earlier and it might well be later).

 

[WelshBluebird]

New trains to suit upgraded infrastructure; GWR doesn't have an equivalent to the TransPennine Route Upgrade.

GWR are in the position where they are actively having to cancel a tonne of services all the time and now have had to make a timetable change all because of their rolling stock situation.
Something tells me TPE aren't in a situation that bad - yet are getting new trains for upgrades.

New trains for ungraded infrastructure that will be delivered in 8 years time when the current trains are coming up to 30 years old.

And when the GWR DMUs (158s and 165/166's) would be coming upto 45 years old.

 

[YorkRailFan]

2031 at the earliest I think (the route won't be wired any earlier and it might well be later).

Thank you. So likely some overlap between Northern's new trains arriving and the last 185s leaving 'TPE North' for the Castleford route.

 

[Spartacus]

GWR are in the position where they are actively having to cancel a tonne of services all the time and now have had to make a timetable change all because of their rolling stock situation.
Something tells me TPE aren't in a situation that bad - yet are getting new trains for upgrades.


And when the GWR DMUs (158s and 165/166's) would be coming upto 45 years old.

You must have missed the huge problems TPE had a few years ago when it was shown the infrastructure couldn't handle the timetable and it had to be dialled back?

This really isn't about what GW aren't or are getting though.

 

[Bald Rick]

rolling stock entry-into-service always takes longer than expected, is there any fleet that has ever been exactly on time from the predictions given this early on?

Class 379 was on time to the day.

How long will they take to charge "under the wires" at Hull etc ?

30 minutes, 60 minutes ?

Imagine a train terminating at Hull 35 minutes late with a 45 minute turnaround. It then (potentially) has to be delayed in the platform whilst the battery recharges

They won’t need to, they can get there and back with a 90 mile range (which will be a ‘post degradation’ range, not as new).

AIUI it will be charged not through standard 25kV but through a seperate charging system as used on the DART+ units in Dublin. These trains will be from the same Alstom family.

i believe this is literally the Scottish approach, and rather sensible. The batteries allow them 10 or so extra years to complete full electrification at a slow and steady rate, and in the end they can just bin the batteries when they start to get old. (Or more likely, retain a few to be trickle charged for limp home contingency)

No, the Scottish approach will be batteries.

 

[Scotrail88]

As someone pointed out, we don’t know the operational set up as 5 car extra services between York and Manchester might grown the overall capacity.
Also would 10 with SDO and then split at York be options for Scarborough and Saltburn services?

 

[Spartacus]

As someone pointed out, we don’t know the operational set up as 5 car extra services between York and Manchester might grown the overall capacity.
Also would 10 with SDO and then split at York be options for Scarborough and Saltburn services?

Nah, it'd have to be SDO practically everywhere, and I can't see one being needed except in very exceptional circumstances.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I honestly think it's pointless trying to hype people up about them yet. I'm in my early twenties. I'll be thirty-one before I can make use of one.

That's not a nice thought.

Who can get that excited, really, about looking ahead to ten years down the line?

Yes how many times are these trains going to get re-announced over the next few years...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think I have seen any reference to the status of the order with Alstom.
Clearly they are preferred bidder, but is the design, pricing and financing finalised?
When the HS2 order with Hitachi/Alstom was placed, it still required technical details to be finalised and I believe is still not complete over 5 years after order placement.
This will be the first large-scale deployment of battery-electric trains in the UK* and is bound to raise technical and operational issues over and above that for standard EMUs.

* unless Northern secures earlier delivery of its new BEMU fleet (yet to be ordered).

 

[brad465]

As someone pointed out, we don’t know the operational set up as 5 car extra services between York and Manchester might grown the overall capacity.
Also would 10 with SDO and then split at York be options for Scarborough and Saltburn services?

One problem here is I'm pretty sure only two platforms at York would be usable for such a split/join, as all the other through platforms don't have a connection to the Scarborough line, which could be capacity-limiting overall.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I wonder the TOPS for the new Alstom trains will be? It won't be the 780, 781 and 782 as that's for Northern as those are for something else. Maybe Class 785?

382 for the straight electrics, not 782 (which would imply a bimode as it's higher than 750), unless something's changed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 16:54 ==

Have they been problematic ? The Citadis trams usually aren’t…

Not as far as i am aware - i was just responding to a query as to whether Alstom (pre-the Bombardier takeover) had supplied anything to the UK in the past 25 years other than the extra Pendolinos.

 

[Starmill]

A lot of people have missed that the existing six cars carry a lot of standing load. The layout changes aren't particularly important for that as what's lost in narrower doors will partly be made up for in removing the step at some stations.

What is a problem is the loss of a whole vehicle given the increase in seating is ~0. So all of the extra capacity is riding on the one extra fast train between Leeds and Manchester (provisionally a Hull - Manchester Piccadilly).

TRU specced for 7*26 m or 8* 24 m sets. A 5* 24 m would be foul of various crossovers in a pair. Even on today's traffic levels 5*24 m would run heavily loaded with standees so one extra train per hour is doing a LOT of work on forecast in eight years time.

It does rather look as though the large extra costs for batteries and charging at outstations has caused them to run out of money and spec to five vehicles per set rather than six. It proves once again that any savings of opex from going from DMU to battery are illusory, except for short, low speed routes.

By contrast the extra cost of speed above 110 would never have been justified for these units. TRU are only lifting permissible speed above this between Church Fenton and Colton Jn, so York - Church Fenton would be the only short section they could regularly run above 110, plus whatever very limited occasions they may run non-stop through Thirsk.