Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[Bletchleyite]

The 5-car train length is disappointing. I suspect with current 185s, 3 cars are too tight but 6 cars too generous. DfT and Treasury must have run the numbers and arrived at 5 as an affordable number that's greater than 3.

5 in the 802s seems a pretty good fit to demand to be fair.

 

[RUK]

5 in the 802s seems a pretty good fit to demand to be fair.

The Class 802s are 8.4 metres longer than these new trains will be, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Class 802s are 8.4 metres longer than these new trains will be, though.

They are, but that depends on how space efficient the internal layout of each is. A 5 car Voyager is a similar length but has 50ish fewer seats. The 730/2 is very efficiently laid out and crams in almost as many seats (at a similar pitch overall) as an 8 car 350 formation which is 40m longer.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

The 5-car train length is disappointing. I suspect with current 185s, 3 cars are too tight but 6 cars too generous. DfT and Treasury must have run the numbers and arrived at 5 as an affordable number that's greater than 3.

Also, how many Redcar/Scarborough/Hull trains run as 6 x 185 today? I would guess most are 3 car, so at least off peak service seats are increased, with hopefully fares to encourage them to be filled.

 

[Mike Machin]

Did anyone seriously expect DfT/GBR would be buying trains before GBR is even set up? I don’t think they’ll ever move away from leasing.

I don’t think the railways in the UK will ever move away from leasing. With the huge initial capital outlay of purchasing new rolling stock, the railways would always be poorly placed in the pecking order for capital expenditure when there is already huge pressure on public finances to increase funding for defence, health, education and prisons as well as other needs.

Besides this, leasing is absolutely the norm for providing all sorts of transport and major infrastructure needs. Many if not most of the continental railways lease a growing proportion of their rolling stock, the big American freight railroads lease most of their locomotives and freight cars and virtually all of the major international airlines lease the majority of their aircraft. Cruise companies and shipping organisations are starting to use leasing as a financial vehicle to procure new fleets, road hauliers and logistics companies lease trucks and even many private motorists now use leasing as a flexible means to enjoy trouble-free motoring in modern cars.

I don’t think we shall ever return to the days of capital equipment being outright self-funded purchases.

 

[InTheEastMids]

5 in the 802s seems a pretty good fit to demand to be fair.

The Class 802s are 8.4 metres longer than these new trains will be, though.

If they operate alone as 300-seat trains, then that may look a lot like a reduction in capacity. For example, RTT reckons most of Hull's TPE services today are either 802/2 with 342 seats or a double 185 with 338 seats (Wikipedia for seat counts)

Presumably it's all about service frequency because it's not exactly going for growth to replace 340-ish seat services is with 300-ish ones.
I've forgotten (or may not ever have known) what TRU will deliver in terms of frequency improvements.

There will if I'm understanding correctly be a third fleet - pure 125mph (or faster) EMUs to run Liverpool to Newcastle fasts on the ECML. What these will be isn't announced yet. 802s would also do that to be fair.

Is this evidence of... a strategy? (Lifts bruised jaw off desk)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

200m platforms on TRU and these are 120m so no running in multiple? Or will they have selective door opening? Seems a strange decision.

The killer will be Manchester Oxford Road with only 160m platforms (8x20m so 2x350 will fit).
There are plans to extend but no firm date or funding (not part of TRU).
But 6- or (maybe) 7-car 24m units would fit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably it's all about service frequency because it's not exactly going for growth to replace 340-ish seat services is with 300-ish ones.
I've forgotten (or may not ever have known) what TRU will deliver in terms of frequency improvements.

It is a capacity gain though I believe, particularly as some 185s will remain and not all services are presently 6 car. So frequency increases must be on the agenda.

 

[sprinterguy]

Also, how many Redcar/Scarborough/Hull trains run as 6 x 185 today? I would guess most are 3 car, so at least off peak service seats are increased, with hopefully fares to encourage them to be filled.

The Redcar and Hull trains are almost all 6 car workings, or the equivalent of with 5-car class 802s in the case of some Hull diagrams. Scarborough workings are all single 3-car units. Therefore, the change from formations based around class 185s with c.170 seats, to new units with c.300, over those three services is an increase from 840 seats each hour to 900.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Isn’t this the tail wagging the dog?

We can’t have full length trains at Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester because somewhere like Seamer or Thirsk can’t accommodate them

Imagine if they ran short trains on some services on Thameslink because a random suburban station in South London had a short platform

They do. The Sutton Loop is the reason for the 8-car 700s. And Woolwich Dockyard is another example of a short station constraining the length of some SE services.

 

[800001]

Just seen a tweet from Philip Haigh stating battery range is 90 miles.

Philip Haigh (@philatrail) on X

TPE plans to electrify two platforms at each of Hull, Scarborough and Saltburn to allow for ‘turnaround’ charging of batteries for its new fleet. Batteries will have a range of 90 miles.

x.com

TPE plans to electrify two platforms at each of Hull, Scarborough and Saltburn to allow for ‘turnaround’ charging of batteries for its new fleet. Batteries will have a range of 90 miles.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's 1 minute. That's the difference between 110 and 125 mph. York to Thirsk is around 22 miles and you'd have around 16 miles at top speed after allowing for acceleration and braking distance. So there's little point in specifying 125mph top speed.

Even that one minute assumes similar acceleration rates. If the lower geared version can get to 110 sooner than the 125mph version, it may be quicker start-to-stop.

 

[NCT]

Interesting that terminal charging is procured as part of rolling stock 'turnkey' rather than traditional Network Rail infrastructure enhancements.

I wonder if the terminal charging will enable some Northern circuits to become BEMUs.

 

[brad465]

Just seen a tweet from Philip Haigh stating battery range is 90 miles.

Wouldn't mind betting that by the time they're under construction, technology has progressed enough that their range will be longer within the same battery volume.

 

[800001]

Another tweet confirms it's 270 standard class seats and 30 first class seats.

Philip Haigh (@philatrail) on X

These trains will have 300 seats, split 270 for standard class and 30 for first.

x.com

These trains will have 300 seats, split 270 for standard class and 30 for first.

 

[stevieinselby]

If they operate alone as 300-seat trains, then that may look a lot like a reduction in capacity. For example, RTT reckons most of Hull's TPE services today are either 802/2 with 342 seats or a double 185 with 338 seats (Wikipedia for seat counts)

While I think it's a shame they are only getting 5-car sets, I'm not going to catastrophise about it too much – from what I've seen on the Hull and Scarborough services, while 3-car sets are definitely insufficient, when there are 6-car sets they feel very empty ... they don't need 6-car sets, that was just the most convenient way to get them to the 4/5-car size that they need (which is why all the Nova fleet were 5-car). So I would expect 5-car sets to be adequate for the foreseeable future, especially with the increased frequency we're expecting through the core – not perfect, but adequate.

 

[norbitonflyer]

What's the range of a battery powered train ?

I assume the batteries will recharge whilst under the wires ?

So these new trains go Manchester to Leeds (under the wires) then battery power to Hull?

But then, on the return journey, the line becomes blocked after Leeds - so the train terminates at Leeds an d goes back to Hull (on battery) before going back to Leeds. Is there enough life in the batteries to do this?

90 mile range was mentioned upthread. Hull to Micklefield is 42 miles. So even if recharging is only possible at one end it can easily do a round trip between Hull and the limit of electrification at Micklefield.

 

[quantinghome]

Although its focus is on local services, the Network Rail East of Leeds study contains some interesting detail about the future Transpennine services, as shown here:



Taking the six Transpennine services shown in the study and applying the proposed journey times post-upgrade gives the following details:

TP01 - Liverpool- Newcastle - 2h45: 7 diagrams
TP02 - Man Air - Newcastle - 2h40: 7 diagrams
TP03 - Man Air - Saltburn - 3h20: 8 diagrams
TP04 - Liverpool - Scarborough - 2h30: 6 diagrams
TP05 - Man Picc - Hull - 1h50: 5 diagrams
TP06 - Man Picc - Hull- 1h50: 5 diagrams

I presume that TP01 and TP02 will continue to be served by the 19 802s (which could be replaced with electric-only), then TP03-TP06 served by the 29 newly ordered trains. So the diagrams are covered with some trains to spare.

My understanding is that Dewsbury and Stalybridge are only going to be served by the 'semi-fast' trains which I presume are TP05 and TP06, so a bit of a mystery why 200m platforms are needed. I guess it future-proofs things.

Still, with 6 x 300-seat trains per hour we're getting 1800 seats per hour which must be the highest provision for an intercity line not serving London, and with room to expand in the future.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

While I think it's a shame they are only getting 5-car sets, I'm not going to catastrophise about it too much – from what I've seen on the Hull and Scarborough services, while 3-car sets are definitely insufficient, when there are 6-car sets they feel very empty ... they don't need 6-car sets, that was just the most convenient way to get them to the 4/5-car size that they need (which is why all the Nova fleet were 5-car). So I would expect 5-car sets to be adequate for the foreseeable future, especially with the increased frequency we're expecting through the core – not perfect, but adequate.

Let's hope there is an option for an additional trailer/battery car in the near future.

 

[fishwomp]

90 mile range was mentioned upthread. Hull to Micklefield is 42 miles. So even if recharging is only possible at one end it can easily do a round trip between Hull and the limit of electrification at Micklefield.

.. and 10 years in, when their battery range is depleted to 80 miles, they'll do Micklefield to Brough instead!

or actually be a good justification for incremental electrification from Micklefield to Hambleton Jcts, or Selby etc.. - keep going until their range is almost all gone and they fleet can be electric only.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A much better looking design than some recent ones, but I agree very much on the "too short" comments.

 

[Orac]

My understanding, which may be wrong, is that these new trains will replace all trains on Transpennine North (both 802s and 185s) with 185s continuing on Transpennine South and the 802s cascaded elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding, which may be wrong, is that these new trains will replace all trains on Transpennine North (both 802s and 185s) with 185s continuing on Transpennine South and the 802s cascaded elsewhere.

It is wrong, I'm afraid. They will not usually work Liverpool-Newcastle fast services. There will be something else for those which has not yet been announced.

 

[800001]

.. and 10 years in, when their battery range is depleted to 80 miles, they'll do Micklefield to Brough instead!

or actually be a good justification for incremental electrification from Micklefield to Hambleton Jcts, or Selby etc.. - keep going until their range is almost all gone and they fleet can be electric only.

Or as post #161 says, in - few more years battery life will of improved and they mate get more than 90 mile range out of them .

 

[158801]

90 mile range was mentioned upthread. Hull to Micklefield is 42 miles. So even if recharging is only possible at one end it can easily do a round trip between Hull and the limit of electrification at Micklefield.

How long will they take to charge "under the wires" at Hull etc ?

30 minutes, 60 minutes ?

Imagine a train terminating at Hull 35 minutes late with a 45 minute turnaround. It then (potentially) has to be delayed in the platform whilst the battery recharges

 

[800001]

How long will they take to charge "under the wires" at Hull etc ?

30 minutes, 60 minutes ?

Imagine a train terminating at Hull 35 minutes late with a 45 minute turnaround. It then (potentially) has to be delayed in the platform whilst the battery recharges

It will most likely be a rapid charger, which will not necessarily give a full charge, but more likely top up the battery in 5-10 minutes, similar to the 230 charging at West Ealing.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Usual ? When was the last time Alstom delivered anything to the UK ? And don’t quote the 701s, that was Alstom having to deal with Bombardier’s issues.

2010, for the additional Pendolinos, built in Savigliano in Italy.

Not delivered to the UK, since they were built at the former Metro Cammell works at Washwood Heath (a site now repurposed as the main depot for HS2), Alstom also produced classes 175, 180, 334, 458 and 460, and tghe main Pendolini fleet
What could possibly go wrong?

 

[quantinghome]

While I think it's a shame they are only getting 5-car sets, I'm not going to catastrophise about it too much – from what I've seen on the Hull and Scarborough services, while 3-car sets are definitely insufficient, when there are 6-car sets they feel very empty ... they don't need 6-car sets, that was just the most convenient way to get them to the 4/5-car size that they need (which is why all the Nova fleet were 5-car). So I would expect 5-car sets to be adequate for the foreseeable future, especially with the increased frequency we're expecting through the core – not perfect, but adequate.

I tend to agree with this. 1800 seats per hour is pretty reasonable for an intercity line not originating in London. Certainly a lot better than the core XC service. Also, a modest follow-on order would enable the trains to be rearranged to give enough 4-car sets to double up through the Transpennine core. Obviously that would mean a lot of tedious mucking about with joining and separating trains though.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Have I missed any mention of catering facilities? Buffet car, trolley, meals prep?

Also, 185s work to Cleethorpes. What will they be getting?

 

[SC318250]

Will be interesting if Scotrail choose the same supplier as TPE, whether TPE ones get built first or Scotrail, as Scotrail were saying into service 2031