Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[LLivery]

Looks like First Group designed the interior.

Seriously though, we've got expensive 5 car *sigh*, 121m meter trains using 200m platforms on a an upgraded TransPennine. So, you can't even double them up? Have I got that right?

We all know the railway has capacity issues, and their answer is not using 79m of platform?

You couldn't make it up.

 

[Harlequinuk]

How long will the 890 kilo watt hour batteries last, in winter, with a loaded train on a wet rail with an incline start?

 

[quantinghome]

Not sure of the numbers but a fair few

It's 1 minute. That's the difference between 110 and 125 mph. York to Thirsk is around 22 miles and you'd have around 16 miles at top speed after allowing for acceleration and braking distance. So there's little point in specifying 125mph top speed.

 

[800001]

It will be 125mph north of Church Fenton and on the ECML. The 125mph 802s will still be there.
The front end of the new trains doesn't look like a 125mph unit, but they will be replacing 100mph 185s.

But these are to replace the class 185 services which use the slow lines north of York to Northalleron, the slow lines are not 125mph line speed. So 110mph is still faster than what the slow lines permit.

 

[MboroFC]

It's 1 minute. That's the difference between 110 and 125 mph. York to Thirsk is around 22 miles and you'd have around 16 miles at top speed after allowing for acceleration and braking distance. So there's little point in specifying 125mph top speed.

Fair enough

 

[MalaiseForever]

200m platforms on TRU and these are 120m so no running in multiple? Or will they have selective door opening? Seems a strange decision.

 

[172007]

But these are to replace the class 185 services which use the slow lines north of York to Northalleron, the slow lines are not 125mph line speed. So 110mph is still faster than what the slow lines permit.

Marginal gains. 1 minute can be the difference between getting a path and not. Also arriving 4 mins late rather than 3 and the operator or that business unit getting a fine.

Don't forget the Clas 350s were upped frm 100mph to 110mph and that 10mph difference was al that was needed to squeeze in some extra paths if memory serves me well.

 

[Trainman40083]

200m platforms on TRU and these are 120m so no running in multiple? Or will they have selective door opening? Seems a strange decision.

Maybe a 5 car unit has more seats in them, than a 6 car Class 185.

 

[Goldfish62]

200m platforms on TRU and these are 120m so no running in multiple? Or will they have selective door opening? Seems a strange decision.

It would be a bizarre omission not to have ASDO on any new train, surely.

 

[cats_five]

Marginal gains. 1 minute can be the difference between getting a path and not. Also arriving 4 mins late rather than 3 and the operator or that business unit getting a fine.

Don't forget the Clas 350s were upped frm 100mph to 110mph and that 10mph difference was al that was needed to squeeze in some extra paths if memory serves me well.

Very expensive marginal gains I suspect, especially as for most of the network they will travel 110mph is more than fast enough.

 

[swt_passenger]

Great news on the new train front but sad to see that GBR aren't looking at owning the trains directly themselves.

Did anyone seriously expect DfT/GBR would be buying trains before GBR is even set up? I don’t think they’ll ever move away from leasing.

 

[trawler]

Do we know about any depot and servicing facilities?

 

[InTheEastMids]

Seriously though, we've got expensive 5 car *sigh*, 121m meter trains using 200m platforms on a an upgraded TransPennine. So, you can't even double them up?

200m platforms on TRU and these are 120m so no running in multiple? Or will they have selective door opening? Seems a strange decision.

This is the one issue I'm really struggling to understand at the moment too.

It would be a bizarre omission not to have ASDO on any new train, surely.

I get that, but a pair of units is going to have 42m of un-platformed train - i.e. it's not a set of doors, but 2 entire carriages that may need to be locked out.

If they operate alone as 300-seat trains, then that may look a lot like a reduction in capacity. For example, RTT reckons most of Hull's TPE services today are either 802/2 with 342 seats or a double 185 with 338 seats (Wikipedia for seat counts)

Certainly I think worrying about 110 vs 125 doesn't feel as an important point as they obviously work acceptably on WCML south. On the very congested MML South, the issue is less about the different top speeds (Cl700=100mph, Cl360=110, Cl222/810=125) but the mix of slower services south of Luton whereas IC services are all non-stop.

 

[Andyh82]

As others have said, it’s disappointing they are only 5 cars long, where is the growth coming from when they are no bigger than the existing trains?

Most TPE services are already 5 or 6 cars long, and you’d assume when the route upgrade is finished passenger numbers are supposed to grow, when will they ever learn, surely they should be 200m long?

 

[quantinghome]

Maybe a 5 car unit has more seats in them, than a 6 car Class 185.

It's quite possible, given how inefficiently laid out the 185s are.

I completely agree with the other posters saying that we should be making the most out of the longer platforms currently being built, although that would mean platform extensions on the eastern branches as some of the stations couldn't take trains much longer than 120m.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looks like First Group designed the interior.

I don't think they've done the official reveal of the GBR style interior yet, so they've probably deliberately kept it vaguely to the current sort of colour scheme for now.

 

[800001]

Video here attached below from the TPE MD, shows the interior and he states 300 seats.

TPE new trains social media edit

This is "TPE new trains social media edit" by TransPennine Express on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

vimeo.com

 

[Goldfish62]

Did anyone seriously expect DfT/GBR would be buying trains before GBR is even set up? I don’t think they’ll ever move away from leasing.

Indeed. The government isn't exactiy flushed with cash so if they'd been dogmatic about it and decided that only direct purchasing would do I suspect we'd be waiting a lot longer for this order, if at all.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Video here attached below from the TPE MD, shows the interior and he states 300 seats.

I honestly think it's pointless trying to hype people up about them yet. I'm in my early twenties. I'll be thirty-one before I can make use of one.

That's not a nice thought.

Who can get that excited, really, about looking ahead to ten years down the line?

 

[NCT]

Pleasant bit of surprise on a Friday morning! In my head I always though Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough couldn't avoid diesel, but actually the distances beyond Micklefield, York and Northallerton are fairly modest if there's charging at the ends.

2034 seems eons away. I suspect the blocker isn't Litchurch Lane, but TRU's delivery timescale Treasury is willing to sign up to. Without diesel it wouldn't be sensible to introduce these trains before the full electrification scope between Stalybridge and Church Fenton is complete.

It's nice to see the idea put to bed that the rolling stock market consists solely of 800s and 745s, and that 24m carriages remain the default carriage length.

The low floor has forced door positions to be at thirds - i.e. above bogies is no longer possible. This might be a problem for a future 'true' intercity train. For TransPennine though doors at thirds makes sense as these trains make relatively frequent stops and carry plenty of commuters. Single leaf doors make them similar to the Class 395s.

For Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough runs, there's precious little 125mph running, so a 110mph speed makes perfect sense. West of Micklefield I don't think there's anything over 90mph. Church Fenton - York is too short a distance to worry about, and the Middlesbrough runs call at Thirsk.

 

[Andyh82]

Video here attached below from the TPE MD, shows the interior and he states 300 seats.

2x 185s have 338-362 seats (if you include tip ups or not)

I’m guessing they hope the media won’t notice any of this and just assume any new trains for the north is good because all trains in the north are 50 years old (as the media would probably think)

 

[quantinghome]

I honestly think it's pointless trying to hype people up about them. I'm in my early twenties. I'll be thirty-one before I can make use of one.
That's not a nice thought.
Who can get that excited, really, about looking ahead to ten years down the line?

Civilisation is about planting trees whose shade you will never enjoy.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Civilisation is about planting trees whose shade you will never enjoy.

I think that's a rather beautiful quote, actually. Quite motivating on a Friday morning!

 

[fandroid]

For reference a 5 car 444 now has 359 seats, a pair of 185s has 338 (including 24 tip up) seats

The 444s are nice comfortable long distance commuting trains but that seat total is gained at the expense of holiday and weekend travellers who bring along children in buggies and large items of luggage. They also have seating in long saloons with narrower doors in separate vestibules at each end.

 

[RUK]

There’s some Adessia Max trains in service in France…

The Adessia Max is a re-branded X’TRAPOLIS Cityduplex.

The TPE Adessias are basically rebranded X’Trapolises as well.

The TPE trains are a development of the Aventra, rather than anything Alstom-based, but with lower-floor door entrances for level boarding. Look at the cab wind-screen and roof profile, the n-shape around the head-light above the cab wind-screen, the diagonal lines sloping downwards on either side of the front destination display, the bodywork protruding out to the sides in front of the cab wind-screen, forming a lip, as shown by the orange line at the roof-line, the cab door, and the tall, narrow, squarish-looking saloon windows, and compare it to the Aventra - they’ve just face-lifted the bottom part of the cab. They have 24.2-metre-long vehicles, same as an Aventra. Unfortunately, if Alstom haven’t changed it much, and going by the body around the top of the cab then they haven’t, that probably means that they’ll have the same problematic narrow body as the Aventra. Hiding the bottom/mounting point of the wind-screen wiper behind a bit of bodywork that juts out a bit more and moving the horns down a bit has created space to add the GBR logo to the front of the train. The TfL Class 345s and Class 710s have a higher head-light position than the rest of the non-gangwayed Aventras.

 

[Bumpkin]

I get that, but a pair of units is going to have 42m of un-platformed train - i.e. it's not a set of doors, but 2 entire carriages that may need to be locked out.

Many other operators regularly call at stations where multiple carriages are off the platform, Alton on the SWR network can only accommodate 8 carriages, yet regularly has 12 cars terminate there with 4 carriages off the platform, 80m of train compared to the 42m of the possibility of these new TPE trains.

The reason carriages are locked out at some other operators is because of a lack of ASDO or other computer based door release systems.

 

[David Bullock]

2x 185s have 338-362 seats (if you include tip ups or not)

I’m guessing they hope the media won’t notice any of this and just assume any new trains for the north is good because all trains in the north are 50 years old (as the media would probably think)

In fairness in the video he says “300 seats and 30 seats in 1st class” I think that probably means 330 seats.

The artist impression also seems to include relatively generous luggage provision.

Is it possible that the choice to go with 5 car trains has anything to with platform lengths on the non electrified parts of the route?

I’m hopeful that whatever they get running up to Newcastle will be the full 200m

 

[NCT]

From the limited photos available, the body sides of these Adessias do look like an evolved Aventra.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 20m Aventra has a narrow body for 20m units, as it's the same width as the 24m body. This does make the 701s look like toytown trains, but it's not really relevant to the 24m body. They are 2.75m wide which is wider than a 185 which is 2.67m wide. The 730 feels spacious and airy and doesn't feel narrow at all - if this is a long distance development of that then we can be pretty sure it'll be good - despite the very tight seating layout the 730/2s seem to be very popular with passengers indeed.

The 720 is problematic, but that's because 3+2 in a 23-24m body has never really worked, except the unusually wide 323s and 165/166. These won't be 3+2 as shown. The 730/2 is a much better train and these are a more comfortable version of that with a low floor. It certainly to me seems to look better and less clumsily designed than the Stadlers. I think it will be quite good.

As regards comments on the seats they look to be the Fainsa-Compin frame with the cushion being used on the Thameslink upgrade, but with these not starting construction for 2 years who knows what will be on offer then? But that is broadly similar to the Class 195/331 which run on services similar to the slower TPE ones.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The artist impression also seems to include relatively generous luggage provision.

I imagine that's for the Manchester Airport services that currently run to Redcar. The 185s aren't great when it comes to luggage space for the Airport runs.

Is it possible that the choice to go with 5 car trains has anything to with platform lengths on the non electrified parts of the route?

There's Redcar Central, I believe it only takes 4 carriages out of 6 on a 185. Seamer only takes 5 carriages out of 6 on a 185, as does Thirsk. Yarm is another station that can't take the full 6 carriages on a doubled-up 185.