Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[Grumpy]

The PR blurb claims they are going to reduce the Manchester-Leeds timings by up to 10 minutes.

How?

The TP upgrade project has already claimed a 10 minute reduction. Is this?

-a further 10 minute saving or
-confirmation that the TP Upgrade alone can't deliver its claimed 10 minute reduction or
-politicians' cynical lies

 

[sprinterguy]

Have I missed any mention of catering facilities? Buffet car, trolley, meals prep?

Also, 185s work to Cleethorpes. What will they be getting?

This Derbyshire Live article mentions:

'Landmark moment' as Alstom gets £1bn order for new battery-electric trains

The contract will support more than 350 jobs at Alstom and almost 6,000 across the wider supply chain

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

The Adessia Stream trains will provide emission-free travel on non-electrified sections of the railway. The 121-metre-long trains will operate at speeds of up to 110 mph and provide about 300 seats per-train, including a first class area with catering facilities.

So I'd infer comparable provision to the 185s they're replacing.

185s will continue to work the Transpennine South Cleethorpes route, as it will remain largely unelectrified.

 

[TRAX]

2010, for the additional Pendolinos, built in Savigliano in Italy.

Not delivered to the UK, since they were built at the former Metro Cammell works at Washwood Heath (a site now repurposed as the main depot for HS2), Alstom also produced classes 175, 180, 334, 458 and 460, and tghe main Pendolini fleet
What could possibly go wrong?

Any more recent examples ?
Or trains not built in the UK ?

 

[800001]

Have I missed any mention of catering facilities? Buffet car, trolley, meals prep?

Also, 185s work to Cleethorpes. What will they be getting?

I've attached a picture taken from a tweet, stating first class kitchen with at seat service and a standard class trolley service.

Philip Haigh (@philatrail) on X

These trains will have 300 seats, split 270 for standard class and 30 for first.

x.com

 

[NCT]

The PR blurb claims they are going to reduce the Manchester-Leeds timings by up to 10 minutes.

How?

The TP upgrade project has already claimed a 10 minute reduction. Is this?

-a further 10 minute saving or
-confirmation that the TP Upgrade alone can't deliver its claimed 10 minute reduction or
-politicians' cynical lies

Given that infrastructure and rolling stock are part of the same project, it's not unreasonable for each part of the project to claim the same overall benefits. Not the most rigorous, but OK for a press release aimed at the great unwashed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:02 ==

Any more recent examples ?
Or trains not built in the UK ?

Oh for goodness sake. Whether Bombardier or Alstom, Adessia or Xtrapolis, this new train is a Litchurch Lane continuation.

 

[TRAX]

Oh for goodness sake. Whether Bombardier or Alstom, Adessia or Xtrapolis, this new train is a Litchurch Lane continuation.

Yup. Which doesn’t bode well for the quality and reliability of the units.

 

[800001]

Yup. Which doesn’t bode well for the quality and reliability of the units.

710s good and reliable train?
345s good and reliable train?

 

[TRAX]

710s good and reliable train?
345s good and reliable train?

How long was the 710 entry into service delay again ?

 

[Farigiraf]

Pros:
- It's something new
- It's electric
- Level boarding
- Interior doesn't look terrible
- Built in the UK
- Potential service enhancements (e.g. TPE extended back to Saltburn)

Cons:
- 5-car only with no chance of 10-car working. These will be working services till at least 2050 so there's no chance of capacity catching up to demand anytime soon
- Quite likely less comfortable than the 185s. Interior looks like one of an outer-suburban commuter train.
- Max speed 110mph, when it will be used on routes where 125mph is possible. Not suitable for TRU routes let alone NPR if it ever happens
- Focus on BEMUs and charging stations means that wiring to Hull, Scarborough or Redcar/Saltburn will most likely never happen. Particularly bad for Saltburn as this means that any hope of commuter rail expansion in Teesside is dead.
- My own opinion, but they really are not good looking trains. Compare this to the IETs or earlier Aventras and it's really disappointing. The GBR livery with 4 different colours per carriage without much of a pattern doesn't help it.

I don't find any of it too surprising. A few minimums have been met to ensure that it's not awful but otherwise it's not very ambitious at all. Seems more or less like a continuation of privatisation-era DfT-led rolling stock orders, which shouldn't be surprising as the strategy hasn't changed much at all, despite the government change. Hopefully some of the devolved transport authorities will be able to go for something more suitable for the growth that many commuter networks are experiencing - e.g. the 777s procured by Merseytravel aren't perfect trains but they are overall fit for the job and very high capacity.

 

[edwin_m]

Can completely see why Alstom look to be re-using the structural design of the Aventra. Why would you redesign all that unless there's been some big change to regulations, to your manufacturing technology or it's required to accommodate very different components. Software/electronics-wise, I guess they could be very different. That may be a blessing or a curse.

The floor will have to drop down between the bogies so it's structure can't be straight piece any more, which sounds like a fairly big design change. The cab ends, which is mostly what we have seen, will remain at or near existing floor height so might not be much changed from Aventra.

The PR blurb claims they are going to reduce the Manchester-Leeds timings by up to 10 minutes.

How?

The TP upgrade project has already claimed a 10 minute reduction. Is this?

-a further 10 minute saving or
-confirmation that the TP Upgrade alone can't deliver its claimed 10 minute reduction or
-politicians' cynical lies

It could be argued that getting some electric trains is essential to achieve the 10min saving from electrification, at least on those services not already bi-mode.

 

[800001]

Pros:
- It's something new
- It's electric
- Level boarding
- Interior doesn't look terrible
- Built in the UK
- Potential service enhancements (e.g. TPE extended back to Saltburn)

Cons:
- 5-car only with no chance of 10-car working. These will be working services till at least 2050 so there's no chance of capacity catching up to demand anytime soon
- Quite likely less comfortable than the 185s. Interior looks like one of an outer-suburban commuter train.
- Max speed 110mph, when it will be used on routes where 125mph is possible. Not suitable for TRU routes let alone NPR if it ever happens
- Focus on BEMUs and charging stations means that wiring to Hull, Scarborough or Redcar/Saltburn will most likely never happen. Particularly bad for Saltburn as this means that any hope of commuter rail expansion in Teesside is dead.
- My own opinion, but they really are not good looking trains. Compare this to the IETs or earlier Aventras and it's really disappointing. The GBR livery with 4 different colours per carriage without much of a pattern doesn't help it.

I don't find any of it too surprising. A few minimums have been met to ensure that it's not awful but otherwise it's not very ambitious at all. Seems more or less like a continuation of privatisation-era DfT-led rolling stock orders, which shouldn't be surprising as the strategy hasn't changed much at all, despite the government change. Hopefully some of the devolved transport authorities will be able to go for something more suitable for the growth that many commuter networks are experiencing - e.g. the 777s procured by Merseytravel aren't perfect trains but they are overall fit for the job and very high capacity.

On the routes they will operate how much of the route is 125mph?

I know York to Thirsk is, but that is for the fast lines.
TPE for Teesside use the slow lines which I believe are 90mph.

The only other part I think is Colton Junction to York.

Why would they spec a train for 125mph for so few miles of operation at that speed.

 

[Andyh82]

While I think it's a shame they are only getting 5-car sets, I'm not going to catastrophise about it too much – from what I've seen on the Hull and Scarborough services, while 3-car sets are definitely insufficient, when there are 6-car sets they feel very empty ... they don't need 6-car sets, that was just the most convenient way to get them to the 4/5-car size that they need (which is why all the Nova fleet were 5-car). So I would expect 5-car sets to be adequate for the foreseeable future, especially with the increased frequency we're expecting through the core – not perfect, but adequate.

Where do you travel Selby to Hull?

I don’t think I’ve ever been on any Transpennine Express service through Huddersfield that can be described as ‘very empty’

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the routes they will operate how much of the route is 125mph?
I know York to Thirsk is, but that is for the fast lines.
TPE for Teesside use the slow lines which I believe are 90mph.
The only other part I think is Colton Junction to York.
Why would they spec a train for 125mph for so few miles of operation at that speed.

The slow lines York-Northallerton are by no means a consistent 90mph. There's plenty of 70, and 40 through Thirsk.
And the 90 is for SP trains (otherwise 80). 185s I think can't use SP speeds.
There's now about 8 miles of 125 south of York to Church Fenton for TPE trains (ie on the Leeds lines).

 

[800001]

The slow lines York-Northallerton are by no means a consistent 90mph. There's plenty of 70, and 40 through Thirsk.
And the 90 is for SP trains (otherwise 80). 185s I think can't use SP speeds.
There's now about 8 miles of 125 south of York to Church Fenton for TPE trains (ie on the Leeds lines).

So the 110mph speed for these new trains is adequate for where they are going to be operating?

 

[RUK]

The platform can clearly take more doors as their own website shows, however it is also advised as a commuter train, hardly a 'great' intercity train, 110 is laughably slow aswell

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 23:18 ==

This earlier Adessia image from when Andy Burnham visited Alstom in Derby must be what they’ve submitted for a different tender to the TPE one then, due to the different door position. I guess it’ll only be a few months until we find out if they’ve also won another tender or not, with this other variant.

 

[J-P_L]

On the routes they will operate how much of the route is 125mph?

I know York to Thirsk is, but that is for the fast lines.
TPE for Teesside use the slow lines which I believe are 90mph.

The only other part I think is Colton Junction to York.

Why would they spec a train for 125mph for so few miles of operation at that spe

TPE generally use the fast lines York to Thirsk, not the slows (70). Return from Teesside used to use the fast lines from Thirsk until December last year when they are pathed on the slows (65) to Tollerton to allow an LNER to overtake.

North of Thirsk towards Northallerton it’s 80mph to Longlands Jct for TPE but there is currently minimal time impact slow vs fast as the crossover to the fast north of the station is 30mph.

 

[quantinghome]

Cons:
- 5-car only with no chance of 10-car working. These will be working services till at least 2050 so there's no chance of capacity catching up to demand anytime soon

Always the option to buy more carriages either to extend them, or to turn them into a larger number of 4-car units which can be doubled up through the Transpennine core if GBR don't fancy running long trains to Scarborough and Saltburn.

- Quite likely less comfortable than the 185s. Interior looks like one of an outer-suburban commuter train.

As others have pointed out the interiors are almost certainly a holding position. Let's face it, new train interiors always get complaints. People complained about the 185 interiors back in the day. Now they're great, apparently.

- Max speed 110mph, when it will be used on routes where 125mph is possible. Not suitable for TRU routes

See the many previous comments on this. You'd save at most 1 minute from York to Thirsk (if you can use the fast lines) and nowhere else.

let alone NPR if it ever happens

Why would you think these trains need to be suitable for NPR?

- Focus on BEMUs and charging stations means that wiring to Hull, Scarborough or Redcar/Saltburn will most likely never happen.

Frankly, so what? Wiring is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If it turns out that batteries are a cheaper option outside the core route then why is that not a good permanent solution?

Particularly bad for Saltburn as this means that any hope of commuter rail expansion in Teesside is dead.

That doesn't follow at all. Non-electrified commuter rail is common all over the place. Sure, I'd prefer it to be electrified but there's no rule says it has to be.

- My own opinion, but they really are not good looking trains. Compare this to the IETs or earlier Aventras and it's really disappointing. The GBR livery with 4 different colours per carriage without much of a pattern doesn't help it.

Agree about the livery.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:52 ==

So the 110mph speed for these new trains is adequate for where they are going to be operating?

Yep. The upgraded lines between Leeds and Manchester will only be up to 110mph, so you're only getting 125mph speeds on the ECML sections. 125mph trains are worth it for the services to Newcastle and Edinburgh but not anywhere else on the transpennine network.

 

[superalbs]

There’s some Adessia Max trains in service in France, a lot of Adessia Max, Stream, and Coach vehicles being built at the moment (which will basically be 5-7 years old by the time TPE receives theirs).
The TPE Adessias are basically rebranded X’Trapolises as well.

I thought this was another souped up X'Trapolis. Like the ones in Mexico.

What even is an Adessia Max and Adessia Coach? Isn't the Stream an Avelia Stream or Coradia Stream?

 

[Snow1964]

The 5-car train length is disappointing. I suspect with current 185s, 3 cars are too tight but 6 cars too generous. DfT and Treasury must have run the numbers and arrived at 5 as an affordable number that's greater than 3.

As DfT originally said 174-330 vehicles, and 174 is 29 6 car units then clearly have been pared down. (330 is with 29 units plus optional 26 units, of 6 car)

I wonder if provision has been made for extending to 6 car, either bigger transformer to drive extra motor bogie under 6th car, or specified with enough power to add a trailer coach.

200m platforms on TRU and these are 120m so no running in multiple? Or will they have selective door opening? Seems a strange decision.

The original upto 195m, suggests DfT were thinking of 7 car option, but must have decided North can make do with short trains. Upto 195m trains obviously matches specifying 200m platforms

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65e862a15b65240011f21a74/dft-current-expected-rolling-stock-procurement-opportunities.pdf

 

[Spartacus]

So the 110mph speed for these new trains is adequate for where they are going to be operating?

Definitely. There's next to no 125mph railway they'll be booked to run on. Max speed for the 'core' TPU section is 110mph, and gearing for 125 would probably harm acceleration. You save 4 seconds a mile doing the extra 15mph. If you don't save much more through better acceleration I'd be very surprised.

I'd have liked to see them as 6 car, but they're 5 car with the option to expand (or at least potential for expansion was in the tender), which I suspect is what the round £1bn budget allowed for. They're certainly not needed to be 8 cars yet, which is the max I think the TPU platforms would take, but the stations are designed with future train expansion in mind, not for the length of trains expected when the upgrade's completed.

I'm a bit concerned about the single doors on the end vehicles, although there's two on others. Time will tell, I guess.

Realistically I don't think electrifying Hull, Scarborough and Teeside was every likely, certainly not before these units will be needed, so a solution like this was always going to be needed.

 

[TRAX]

I thought this was another souped up X'Trapolis. Like the ones in Mexico.

What even is an Adessia Max and Adessia Coach? Isn't the Stream an Avelia Stream or Coradia Stream?

Adessia commuter trains: The backbone of urban life

Alstom’s Adessia™ commuter transport solutions support urban ecosystems all over the world to grow sustainably, accommodate increasing numbers of commuters and alleviate traffic congestion. Building on its wealth of experience in delivering commuter train solutions, Alstom offers...

www.alstom.com

 

[stevieinselby]

- Max speed 110mph, when it will be used on routes where 125mph is possible. Not suitable for TRU routes let alone NPR if it ever happens

The only section of route where they could run at 125mph would be between Colton (or Church Fenton?) and York, and between York and Northallerton if they use the fast lines. ICBW but I thought the design speed for TRU was max 110mph, so it's only a very small proportion of the overall route mileage where they won't be able to keep up with the linespeed. And the cost of building them for 125mph rather than 110mph – including the opportunity cost within the physical constraints of the vehicle, the compromise between top speed, acceleration and efficiency, and the actual cost of building and maintaining them – would be out of all proportion with the benefits of maybe saving a minute or two on some of their journeys.

And no, if NPR/HS3 ever goes ahead, these trains won't be running on it because they'll still be running on these routes.

- Focus on BEMUs and charging stations means that wiring to Hull, Scarborough or Redcar/Saltburn will most likely never happen. Particularly bad for Saltburn as this means that any hope of commuter rail expansion in Teesside is dead.

Given the state of the electrification rollout across England, these trains will have to be bi-mode because there's no way that the lines to Hull, Scarborough and Saltburn will be electrified in time.
The economics of electrifying to Scarborough were always poor, while to Hull they remain good – especially if battery performance does degrade over time, and it starts to look shaky if they can reliably complete the journey on a charge!
I don't know why you think that a lack of electrification kills off expansion of commuter rail in Teesside – those services could be expanded with new BEMUs, and it potentially makes any new lines easier to build if they don't have to be wired up to accommodate a wholly EMU local fleet.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Will these new trains also operate the TPE route through Castleford or will some 185s remain with 'TPE North' to operate that specific service? The section between Mirfield & Church Fenton via Castleford won't be electrified as part of the TRU, how many miles is that?

 

[Spartacus]

Will these new trains also operate the TPE route through Castleford or will some 185s remain with 'TPE North' to operate that specific service? The section between Mirfield & Church Fenton via Castleford won't be electrified as part of the TRU, how many miles is that?

Isn't it due to go to Northern at some point? It's the kinda thing that's ideal for this kind of train, I'm sure Northern have put out to tender for some.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

What even is an Adessia Max and Adessia Coach? Isn't the Stream an Avelia Stream or Coradia Stream?

Adessia is a brand that has absorbed a bunch of unrelated platforms and products, including XTrapolis and Aventra models. Even bi-level commuter cars in the USA and Canada are now "Adessia coach solutions".

 

[TRAX]

Adessia is a brand that has absorbed a bunch of unrelated platforms and products, including XTrapolis and Aventra models. Even bi-level commuter cars in the USA and Canada are now "Adessia coach solutions".

Platform names for trains have always been like this. Eg. the Desiro UK which has nothing to do with the Desiro Classic or Desiro ML.

 

[quantinghome]

...the stations are designed with future train expansion in mind, not for the length of trains expected when the upgrade's completed.

Indeed. We complain when platforms are built which don't allow for future expansion... and then we complain when they do! Pick which one to complain about, folks.

 

[Thirteen]

I wonder the TOPS for the new Alstom trains will be? It won't be the 780, 781 and 782 as that's for Northern as those are for something else. Maybe Class 785?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Will these new trains also operate the TPE route through Castleford or will some 185s remain with 'TPE North' to operate that specific service? The section between Mirfield & Church Fenton via Castleford won't be electrified as part of the TRU, how many miles is that?

It's 25 miles between the wire ends via Castleford.
Significantly less than York-Scarborough or Micklefield-Hull (both 42 miles) or Northallerton-Saltburn (34 miles).
It's also a gap of 36 miles between Miles Platting and Heaton Lodge via Hebden Bridge, so these BEMU trains should be able to divert via the Calder Valley when necessary.

 

[800001]

A bit of an explanation about the build process

Post

This post is from a protected account.

x.com

Worth noting @AlstomUK tells @Modern_Railways it has learned from the Aventra introduction. Construction of pre-series Adessias begins in 2028 with testing starting the following year. Production trains will be built once validation work is complete so there is no retro-fitting.