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(Fantasy) A through-running commuter rail tunnel for Birmingham

NCT

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I don't think anyone is arguing that economic growth is down to just one factor. The question is whether Glasgow is richer or poorer than it would be without its rail network.

The problem is Glasgow's rail provision is dependent on other people's money.

If you want to reduce rail subsidy, then more density around stations is an excellent way to do so.

Sure, but there are ways to do it. An evolution from current densities within existing legal limits (and addressing skills and labour market fundamentals) would allow say a 4tph 12-car stopping service between Coventry Wolverhampton to be operationally self sufficient. A Jubilee line frequency metro would require changes in the built environment far beyond existing legal limits and political norms.
 
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squingo44

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This is the speculative forum, so affordability can be set aside for a bit...
I’m interested the technical challenge of designing a crossrail tunnel for Birmingham that best balances costs against benefits. I’m less interested in debating its necessity, or comparing it to the investments already planned.

If you're going to do anything involving tunnelling through Birmingham, surely the logical thing to do is to to provide entirely new routes for long-distance services. As they, by nature, are not going to be stopping anywhere except at a New St "deep level", the alignment can be chosen purely on the basis of ease and cost, rather than having to ensure that they are routed via population centres / existing nodes. No need for more than one tunnel station (they're expensive) and with the ICs out of the way there's plenty of room for more stoppers without any worry about what they're getting in the way of. I know that's the opposite way around to what has happened in many European cities with their RER / S-Bahn tunnels - but those were mostly occasioned by having the problem of terminus stations not really serving the city centre. Whatever else you can say about New Street, you can't accuse it of either of those faults!
I think that’s basically what I’ve landed on as well

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Sure, but there are ways to do it. An evolution from current densities within existing legal limits (and addressing skills and labour market fundamentals) would allow say a 4tph 12-car stopping service between Coventry Wolverhampton to be operationally self sufficient. A Jubilee line frequency metro would require changes in the built environment far beyond existing legal limits and political norms.
We’re going to need to change the law and establish new norms then.

It would be possible to set up a land readjustment pilot scheme in which blocks of single-family homes adjacent to railway stations (like Coventry) are bought collectively, demolished to make space for an expansion of the railway corridor, and replaced with high-density mixed-use development. The value of the land would be much higher if reused in this manner, so existing homeowners could be paid handsomely to sell up.

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And where would you put an extra 4 platforms at Wolverhampton given the station's setting?
Demolish the surrounding buildings. Maybe move the listed low level station buildings to form part of the facade of a new entrance to the expanded station?
 
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Topological

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IF - and this is a huge IF

If you are determined to have more platforms in Wolverhampton because so many trains are coming from the Birmingham direction, then why not keep Wolverhampton as an intensively operated 4 platform station and:

  • send trains on the "Northern" pair of tracks to Stafford - where you could easily add Platform 7 and use Platform 6 more without conflicting with anything you would not have conflicted with at Wolverhampton anyway. That gives better connectivity there.
  • send trains on the "Southern" pair of tracks to Oxley - where again there is space for a 4 platform station that can terminate trains in the centre two tracks and send the others round the outside of the island. IF you are determined to do more then a bit more electrification could get your intensely used 2 tracks to Telford.

No need to demolish anything.

However, I would still say a few dynamic loops are more than enough new infrastructure to allow 6tph of local trains to interact with the necessary longer distance stuff, especially once HS2 is open.
 

Magdalia

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Transport doesn't create economic growth.
I agree.

It unlocks economic growth when the fundamental ingredients are there.

It's incredibly ignorant to state that investment in sustainable modes of transport doesn't affect things much.


The fundamentals are innovation. I don't like "unlock" as a description of what transport does, I prefer "loosens the shackles". Of course sustainable transport has a big impact, but it follows the growth, it doesn't lead it.

what's wrong with planning ahead instead and saving everyone's time and money


Transport improvements shouldn't lag behind clusters of economic growth by years, they should play a major role during the initial establishment of them.
This can't happen, especially in a country that has no money, because nobody knows where the growth is going to be until it starts to happen.

When there is money, and speculative investment in the hope that growth will somehow materialise, then it can turn out like this:



"I managed to escape this place," Nazmi Hanafiah laughs, slightly nervously.

A year ago, the 30-year-old IT engineer moved to Forest City, a sprawling Chinese-built housing complex in Johor, on the tip of southern Malaysia. He rented a one-bedroom flat in a tower block overlooking the sea.

After six months, he'd had enough. He didn't want to continue living in what he calls "a ghost town".

and everyone's time and money is wasted not saved.

I know about this one because of the bonkers proposal for a new city in rural Suffolk, that even has the same name!


Plans for a new city housing up to one million people in affordable homes are "rational and considered", according to a leading architect on the project.

Businessmen Shiv Malik and Joseph Reeve want to build Forest City on agricultural land east of Cambridge, between Newmarket and Haverhill in Suffolk.

Architect Steve McAdam is on the board of directors and said the site "seems to be a very good place to locate a population growth".

Nick Timothy, the Conservative MP for West Suffolk, previously described the idea as "ridiculous".



If it were up to the big banks they'd have built a massive car park and urban motorway straight from a nearby airport into whichever location suited their planned development. London Transport proactively coming in and proposing redevelopment of the Isle of Dogs into a public transport-first mixed-use region, and paying for a large portion of it, was a stroke of luck that led to Canary Wharf being a place that's not only successful at efficiently getting large amounts of people in and out of it, but also a place that's quite nice to walk or cycle around in general.

In the event that the market has the money and the power to dictate development, they would opt for the status quo each time - i.e. car-centric out-of-town sprawl that actively worsens the city it's located in. Innovation in business, tech or science doesn't translate to innovation in quality of life for everyone in cities, unless you fancy some half-baked gadgetbahn.
This isn't what happened. The London Docklands Development Corporation played a key role. The Docklands Light Railway was key because it established a link between the "Square Mile" and Docklands, giving the big banks the reassurance that they needed that there would be good communication between the two. It was not about getting the workers in and out, the Jubilee Line extension did that, which is why it was diverted to go via London Bridge. If the London Docklands Development Corporation hadn't existed, then the big banks would have wanted to demolish Hoxton and Shoreditch, to give themselves room to expand, and it that had been refused then they would have expanded in New York instead.

There was a motorway too, the A12 Hackney to M11 link road (remember Swampy in Wanstead?), and a nearby airport, London City.

But all of these were following the innovation in financial services is what came first. None of it would have happened if the banks hadn't needed a lot more office space because they were growing rapidly.

If there were no Park & Ride sites and we instead had a few dozen multi storey car parks throughout the city then the city would be total gridlock most of the time and would be really unpleasant to live in. This would make it take much longer for people to commute to work at the big companies, making it notably less economically productive.
Park and Ride does do that, but it all happened way before Cambridge became a fast growing city. It was the response to increased road traffic generated by 1980s retail. I remember the proposals for more car parking in the old town around that time, including an underground car park under Parkers Piece. Park and Ride followed the 1980s retail boom, it has nothing to do with the Cambridge Growth phenomenon of the last 15 years.

It did really earn the "misguided busway" moniker. But it was investment in public transport for Cambridge, successful or not.

I'm just judging it (anecdotally) on the bus services and frequencies, on the corridors it serves, post-Busway versus pre-Busway.
The misguided busway is an exemplar of bad transport investment. Cambridge is a fast growing city with huge road traffic congestion issues, yet busway usage is well below design capacity and shrinking further.

a large company comes in, invests in a city that already has something attractive about it
In Cambridge, what is attractive is one of the top 10 universities in the world, not the Park and Ride and the Busway. Other globally leading university cities are avaliable.
 

The Planner

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IF - and this is a huge IF

If you are determined to have more platforms in Wolverhampton because so many trains are coming from the Birmingham direction, then why not keep Wolverhampton as an intensively operated 4 platform station and:

  • send trains on the "Northern" pair of tracks to Stafford - where you could easily add Platform 7 and use Platform 6 more without conflicting with anything you would not have conflicted with at Wolverhampton anyway. That gives better connectivity there.
  • send trains on the "Southern" pair of tracks to Oxley - where again there is space for a 4 platform station that can terminate trains in the centre two tracks and send the others round the outside of the island. IF you are determined to do more then a bit more electrification could get your intensely used 2 tracks to Telford.

No need to demolish anything.

However, I would still say a few dynamic loops are more than enough new infrastructure to allow 6tph of local trains to interact with the necessary longer distance stuff, especially once HS2 is open.
Wolves is only two tracks to Wolves North Jn, and I can't see where you can fit another platform on the up side. Your other idea was proposed around 10-15 years ago for Brinsford.
 

Topological

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Wolves is only two tracks to Wolves North Jn, and I can't see where you can fit another platform on the up side. Your other idea was proposed around 10-15 years ago for Brinsford.
I must confess that I did not check. I only pass through Wolverhampton occasionally when the Marches is closed. It felt like there might be space for that short section

Interesting about Brinsford though.

Am I right in thinking dynamic loops would be enough for any medium-term increase in stopping trains on the two track sections? It seems to be tunnels or nothing on most replies.
 

The Planner

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Am I right in thinking dynamic loops would be enough for any medium-term increase in stopping trains on the two track sections? It seems to be tunnels or nothing on most replies.
Basically, and even that isn't particularly easy depending on where they need to be as it isn't always halfway along as most peoples immediate assumption will be.
 

The Pelican

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One thing worth noticing with Crossrail 1 (the Elizabeth Line) is that it followed one of the best potential routes in London- through the West End and the City, roughly the same route as the Metropolitan Line, the District Line, and the Central Line before it. These lines have also had suburban sections for a long time.

What would a Birmingham Light Metro project look like? It might allow cheaper station construction costs than a Crossrail type project, and open up a new corridor. Attempts to assess the value of each corridor being Sprint busway vs Midland Metro tram vs grade seperated metro line will give a good idea of where the best corridors in the city might be.
 

Bald Rick

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One thing worth noticing with Crossrail 1 (the Elizabeth Line) is that it followed one of the best potential routes in London- through the West End and the City, roughly the same route as the Metropolitan Line, the District Line, and the Central Line before it. These lines have also had suburban sections for a long time.

Crossrail also had land safeguarded from 1994, with some further land arrangements since 1991. That protected the alignment from construction and new obstructions, which made it rather easier to build.
 

NCT

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I’m interested the technical challenge of designing a crossrail tunnel for Birmingham that best balances costs against benefits. I’m less interested in debating its necessity, or comparing it to the investments already planned.

Anything is possible if you chuck enough money at it, with a wrecking ball.

It's the economics, and politics, that ultimately matter.

Define the problem before going into solutions.
 

squingo44

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I think this means that the soluton is a new station for long distance services in central Birmingham.
(checks map…)
I updated my design from the one in the original post

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If you are determined to have more platforms in Wolverhampton because so many trains are coming from the Birmingham direction, then why not keep Wolverhampton as an intensively operated 4 platform station
Because, in order to run an intercity service on new tracks to an underground central Birmingham station with only one platform per track, each surrounding shoulder stations will require 4-6 platform faces solely for the fast lines to regulate the service.

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Define the problem before going into solutions.
All the main lines into Birmingham New Street share track between express and stopping services, severely limiting the capacity of the lines to serve local residents. Transformative change will eventually be necessary in the form of complete segregation.
 

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The Planner

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Because, in order to run an intercity service on new tracks to an underground central Birmingham station with only one platform per track, each surrounding shoulder stations will require 4-6 platform faces solely for the fast lines to regulate the service.
Why? How many fast line services are you running?
 

squingo44

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Why? How many fast line services are you running?
At a minimum, all the express services currently running to Birmingham New Street. In my sketched indicative service specification, I have 8 long distance services and 8 Thameslink-style express commuter services using the fast line tunnels to Birmingham Central station.

Through a combination of ATO, scheduling extended dwell times for long-distance services at the near shoulder station, terminating them at the far shoulder station , and designing the station itself to maximise passenger flow, I reckon it would be possible to achieve 60 second headways, 3 minute dwells for long distance services, and 30 second dwells for commuter services. That adds up to a little over 75% capacity utilisation, which should provide enough capacity for recovery.

Rather than have two platform faces in the central underground station, additional platform faces at the shoulder stations would be cheaper to build.
 

The Planner

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At a minimum, all the express services currently running to Birmingham New Street. In my sketched indicative service specification, I have 8 long distance services and 8 Thameslink-style express commuter services using the fast line tunnels to Birmingham Central station.

Through a combination of ATO, scheduling extended dwell times for long-distance services at the near shoulder station, terminating them at the far shoulder station , and designing the station itself to maximise passenger flow, I reckon it would be possible to achieve 60 second headways, 3 minute dwells for long distance services, and 30 second dwells for commuter services. That adds up to a little over 75% capacity utilisation, which should provide enough capacity for recovery.

Rather than have two platform faces in the central underground station, additional platform faces at the shoulder stations would be cheaper to build.
Nowhere can manage 60 second headways. 30 second dwells at a heavy rail station like New St is also folly, its not the London Underground.
 

Topological

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At a minimum, all the express services currently running to Birmingham New Street. In my sketched indicative service specification, I have 8 long distance services and 8 Thameslink-style express commuter services using the fast line tunnels to Birmingham Central station.

Through a combination of ATO, scheduling extended dwell times for long-distance services at the near shoulder station, terminating them at the far shoulder station , and designing the station itself to maximise passenger flow, I reckon it would be possible to achieve 60 second headways, 3 minute dwells for long distance services, and 30 second dwells for commuter services. That adds up to a little over 75% capacity utilisation, which should provide enough capacity for recovery.

Rather than have two platform faces in the central underground station, additional platform faces at the shoulder stations would be cheaper to build.
Where are they all coming from?

At the moment you have:

2 from the South West
2 from Manchester
2 from the North East
2 from the South East

then you have 3 London and 1 Scotland.

So that is:

3 from Wolverhampton
2 from Bromsgrove
2 from Tamworth
5 from Birmingham International (and even then 1 is via Solihull)

This would be a huge uplift to get 8 from one line.
 

Lemmy99uk

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Of course, you don’t need any land take at all if you build up instead, and double-deck the lines (see Tokyo).
 

squingo44

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Where are they all coming from?

At the moment you have:

2 from the South West
2 from Manchester
2 from the North East
2 from the South East

then you have 3 London and 1 Scotland.

So that is:

3 from Wolverhampton
2 from Bromsgrove
2 from Tamworth
5 from Birmingham International (and even then 1 is via Solihull)

This would be a huge uplift to get 8 from one line.
Well 3+5 =8 so that one is already at the number, and the other one you could double frequencies to Bristol and Cardiff.

Although as mentioned above my numbers are a little off. 90s headways and 5 minute dwells is more accurate. Although maybe this should just be a Thameslink style outer commuter service rather than intercity at this point.
 

Topological

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Well 3+5 =8 so that one is already at the number, and the other one you could double frequencies to Bristol and Cardiff.

Although as mentioned above my numbers are a little off. 90s headways and 5 minute dwells is more accurate. Although maybe this should just be a Thameslink style outer commuter service rather than intercity at this point.
Ah

So not 8 trains in each tunnel?

You could have 8 trains across 2 routes, but where would the portals be to allow that given that the lines diverge almost immediately either side of New Street.

There are already extra trains as part of the Moor Street expansion going down to Cheltenham and beyond.

I think you would struggle to get enough trains to justify a tunnel, particularly when London trains are switching to HS2 anyway.
 

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