Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[brad465]

If Networkers go for C4 overhauls, can we see one in GBR livery?

The overhauls are being done by sending the moving parts away to Crewe, but not the whole train, so chances are no new livery will be applied at all because the units are not going somewhere this can be done. 465908 got its NSE livery while having a C6 overhaul, which focuses on the body so made sense there.

If any SE unit gets GBR livery, I think a 707 and/or 377 is more likely (707 as the newest fleet, while several 377s in Southern livery would be ideal for a new paintjob that actually has value to Southeastern).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The overhauls are being done by sending the moving parts away to Crewe, but not the whole train, so chances are no new livery will be applied at all because the units are not going somewhere this can be done. 465908 got its NSE livery while having a C6 overhaul, which focuses on the body so made sense there.

If any SE unit gets GBR livery, I think a 707 and/or 377 is more likely (707 as the newest fleet, while several 377s in Southern livery would be ideal for a new paintjob that actually has value to Southeastern).

Fair enough. I've no idea what a C4/C6 overhaul is nowadays; this may have changed from BR days. So does this mean, a unit has its "un-reconditioned" bogies and running gear sent to Crewe and waits for a reconditioned set to return before being returned to traffic?

 

[Doomotron]

At this stage we don't even know if 304 will be written off, depending on how damaged it is.

From the photos the unit seems to have held up quite well, and (I think, could be wrong) it didn't derail at high speed either. It's impressive how much stronger trains have become in the last 40 or so years. I wouidn't expect it to be a write-off, but if it was I doubt the Networker replacement order would be changed since it's seemingly been signed already.

 

[Mattplans]

Are networkers having seats removed?

-seen on twitter

 

[GEC465]

No that was some sort of prototype driver air conditioning (?) system done years ago

Are networkers having seats removed?

 

[hwl]

Are networkers having seats removed?

-seen on twitter

No that was 1 unit that got modifed ~ a decade ago for a trial (I forget what for, but the unit was chose becasue it had been involved in an incident shortly before hand)

 

[Mattplans]

Ah, I see! Thank you both

 

[Goldfish62]

The September Modern Railways reports that South Eastern have reached a decision on the Networker replacement and hope to place an order by the end of this year.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/south-eastern-decides-networker-replacements?utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwcGRvZgNleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA8yNzUyNTQ2OTI1OTgyNzkAAR4a20n-QLNVY9aOVB9L_9759Fqt6Q_VA4dohnYCyTT-wTtdJGteBwV9XVIYxA_aem_Nyr7mt1c5C38DvoCPZ-TbA

South Eastern Railway has made the decision regarding the train it wants to order to replace its Networker fleet, with a business case now being evaluated with the hope that an order can be placed this year.

Speaking to Modern Railways at Hither Green on 20 July, SET Managing Director Steve White said the operator had run three parallel procurement processes with one looking at possible cascaded stock, one at new rolling stock and one looking at the finance for new rolling stock.

Mr White said of the current progress: “We have selected our preferred manufacturer and we have submitted the business case for approval. If the business case is approved, then we will sit down and negotiate contracts with the preferred manufacturer. We’re really excited about that. It’s been a long process to get to this point, but we’re very confident we’ve found the right product for this railway.”

 

[Snow1964]

The September Modern Railways reports that South Eastern have reached a decision on the Networker replacement and hope to place an order by the end of this year.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/south-eastern-decides-networker-replacements?utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwcGRvZgNleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA8yNzUyNTQ2OTI1OTgyNzkAAR4a20n-QLNVY9aOVB9L_9759Fqt6Q_VA4dohnYCyTT-wTtdJGteBwV9XVIYxA_aem_Nyr7mt1c5C38DvoCPZ-TbA

It is good that this is progressing.

However with both Scotrail (who apparently have moved onto a shortlist of 5 manufacturers), Northern, and GWR all looking to place orders sometime soon, I do wonder if there will be a clash of production capacity

Presumably if South Eastern place an order (and it was going to be around 350+ vehicles, maybe 500+), then factory capacity (and component supply) becomes more restricted for whoever follows unless they are prepared to wait for build slots At a later date.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is good that this is progressing.

However with both Scotrail (who apparently have moved onto a shortlist of 5 manufacturers), Northern, and GWR all looking to place orders sometime soon, I do wonder if there will be a clash of production capacity

Depends which suppliers they all go with. If they all go for the same supplier I imagine that could present issues, but there's all the usual suspects in the bidding.

I can't see any TOC going, "we're not going to bother ordering now in case someone else chooses the same supplier and delays things".

 

[Snow1964]

I can't see any TOC going, "we're not going to bother ordering now in case someone else chooses the same supplier and delays things".

I was thinking from different perspective, might have got indicative build timeline from a manufacturer months ago. But if that manufacturer gets a big order from elsewhere in meantime, then those dates would slip.

We already know hundreds of EMU and BMU carriages have been ordered in 2026 by European operators. No manufacturers are going to build a completed train if important components are delayed because the parts supplier has orders for next 2, 3, 4 years.

It is a limitation of buying in parts (rather than making in house) could be bearings, door components, wiring fittings or whatever. Imagine a scenario where get something like can't fit toilet roof tank, because toilet module needs to be inserted first, but they are delayed months. Whole process logjams.

The other point is that if planning to order replacement trains, it determines when stop expensive heavy overhauls, or life extension work on existing fleet. Get timeline wrong and incur extra costs of patching up current fleet, or incurring penalties on lease return, or extra expensive short term lease extensions where backed into a corner if need bridging period until new fleet ready

 

[NCT]

In the grand scheme of things British orders are a drop in the ocean (OK I exaggerate slightly) compared to the entire European order book.

On the other hand, wasn't Derby churning out Aventras for just about every TOC under the sun not all that long ago?

 

[hwl]

Given the delivery time periods being discussed e.g. Scotrail BEMUs in 5 years time, GWR kicked into the long grass, Transpennine gone very quiet and slow Northern unit delivery, the delivery rate isn't that high so most OEMs bidding could theoretically win all the orders and still deliver.

The reality is that CAF and Hitachi would struggle to deliver even a small number of well built units even at low rate (note the "everyone is looking at you comments" with EMR issues recently, Stadler will be expensive and not tick the "made in GB box", Hitachi would struggle with any reasonably sized order so would presumably try to build some in Japan /Italy which might not work politically.

The recent 345071 delivery and quick entry into service might be pushed by Alstom to exorcise any 701 ghosts (now some what acknowledged in GBR controlled era as SWR no being ready for a rolling stock introduction process on a huge scale e.g. staff shortages). Siemens have shown they can churn 2024 stock out of Goole albeit with many challenges to resolve to get them into service.

Some of the TOCs with procurements open probably only have 1 or 2 OEM what can actually tick all the boxes in sensible way (especially battery requirements) so just as well the required delivery rates aren't too high.

 

[brad465]

The other point is that if planning to order replacement trains, it determines when stop expensive heavy overhauls, or life extension work on existing fleet. Get timeline wrong and incur extra costs of patching up current fleet, or incurring penalties on lease return, or extra expensive short term lease extensions where backed into a corner if need bridging period until new fleet ready

The MetCam Networkers have C6 overhauls due around the end of the decade, so the first units will need to arrive by then to avoid a serious shortfall. I don't know when the BRELs are due a C6, however they're getting C4s this year, which suggests they could be given one more C6 before withdrawal.

 

[Mikey C]

I'd be staggered if Derby doesn't get this. Especially now you "can't blame the private operators" any more, and with the volume of carriages being talked about.

Siemens could do it in their European factories, but that won't happen this time.

 

[JCO1406]

I'd be staggered if Derby doesn't get this. Especially now you "can't blame the private operators" any more, and with the volume of carriages being talked about.

Siemens could do it in their European factories, but that won't happen this time.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Alstom or CAF that wins the order. Siemens would be good for Goole.
I doubt Hitachi would be getting anything for a while after whats happened with the 810s.
Personally, I would like Stadler to win this order, the Flirts are amazing trains and would like to see more of them around, but I doubt they’ll win as they don’t have a UK factory unless one gets built.

 

[brad465]

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Alstom or CAF that wins the order. Siemens would be good for Goole.
I doubt Hitachi would be getting anything for a while after whats happened with the 810s.
Personally, I would like Stadler to win this order, the Flirts are amazing trains and would like to see more of them around, but I doubt they’ll win as they don’t have a UK factory unless one gets built.

Siemens will have more than enough work with the 2024 stock for both the Piccadilly and the Bakerloo lines, so won't be selected unless they have capacity to build multiple fleets at once.

 

[NCT]

I'd be staggered if Derby doesn't get this. Especially now you "can't blame the private operators" any more, and with the volume of carriages being talked about.

Siemens could do it in their European factories, but that won't happen this time.

Have our procurement rules changed so much since Brexit that awards can now be flagrantly made on political grounds?

 

[Goldfish62]

Have our procurement rules changed so much since Brexit that awards can now be flagrantly made on political grounds?

No.