Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[321362]

There can't be that many third rail branch lines willing to use 2-car 707s...

Sheerness and Medway Valley could take them if you doubled them up

 

[Doomotron]

reform the 30 707s into 15 extra 8-car 700s for Thameslink, although that would leave 30 trailer cars spare.

I think the cost of converting them all to dual-voltage operation is probably too much. It's possible, but I don't think anyone would actually be willing to do it. Especially since even after being reformed they would still have quite a few differences to the 'real' 700s.

 

[bramling]

Mr. Turrell doesn't seem to be aware that there are only so many 707s in existence, and it's very unlikely that Siemens will build any more.

On the topic of 707s, one 'out there' idea would be (if SE order a fleet to replace them and the 376s as well as the Networkers) to reform the 30 707s into 15 extra 8-car 700s for Thameslink, although that would leave 30 trailer cars spare. There can't be that many third rail branch lines willing to use 2-car 707s...

Does Thameslink actually *need* 15 extra 700/0s? If anything there’s something of a surplus of them nowadays, with about a sixth of the fleet used on GN services including the Peterborough peak extras, which was never the intention, and for which they aren’t particularly well suited. If Rainham ends up going, there will be even more of this.

What could be done is use the units on Southern inner-suburban instead, but there would then be some inflexibility as to formation lengths, plus if you wanted to bring in some form of 455-replacement then there’s also the 376 fleet.

I wouldn’t be surprised the 707 fleet remains with SE in some form.

 

[Mattplans]

Steve White (MD of SE) on Twitter has said the procurement has been completed and they are now awaiting approval for investment.



Say what you will about the process but it definitely hasn't been rushed!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Steve White (MD of SE) on Twitter has said the procurement has been completed and they are now awaiting approval for investment.

View attachment 207999

Say what you will about the process but it definitely hasn't been rushed!

Forgive my ignorance but does that mean they’ve chosen a fleet to order?

 

[Mattplans]

Forgive my ignorance but does that mean they’ve chosen a fleet to order?

I believe so. They have chosen a manufacturer and are now awaiting the government funding before the award is officially announced and construction proceeds.

 

[brad465]

I believe so. They have chosen a manufacturer and are now awaiting the government funding before the award is officially announced and construction proceeds.

Which I suspect will also be a slow process given we've just got a new PM right as the summer recess starts.

 

[Krystal]

We’re talking at least ten or fifteen years before we actually get the new trains. Until then, we get to see Networkers drop like flies, like today at Lewisham. Caused some disruption.

 

[JonathanH]

We’re talking at least ten or fifteen years before we actually get the new trains.

Are we? Where has that been suggested, given that procurement has apparently been completed?

 

[Doomotron]

If the procurement is almost finished then let's say it'll be another few months before they're officially announced and the work starts. Five years is more reasonable, maybe six or seven taking potential delays into account.

The Networkers shouldn't have lasted until then, but there's an entire fleet of 458s that can chip away at them and the possibility of more Electrostar cascades from GTR. I doubt the entire Networker fleet will be replaced until the new fleet is introduced, but with further withdrawals there should be more than enough spare parts to keep them going.

 

[brad465]

If the procurement is almost finished then let's say it'll be another few months before they're officially announced and the work starts. Five years is more reasonable, maybe six or seven taking potential delays into account.

The Networkers shouldn't have lasted until then, but there's an entire fleet of 458s that can chip away at them and the possibility of more Electrostar cascades from GTR. I doubt the entire Networker fleet will be replaced until the new fleet is introduced, but with further withdrawals there should be more than enough spare parts to keep them going.

The 458s will cause more problems than they could solve at Southeastern. It's another fleet completely different to the rest, so requires extra driver and maintenance training, more inflexibility with diagramming, may require platform and DOO adaptations, plus they also have their own reliability issues. On top of all that, this would only be for 5-6 years, which is fine for an add-on for an existing fleet, but not an entirely new one to the TOC. At least with the 707s they came in relatively new and SE have made a long-term commitment to them. Most Networkers are getting C4 overhauls this year and next, we have to hope this does enough on top of normal maintenance to at least get them to when the first new units come out of testing.

I can see a situation where some more 377s are loaned to Southeastern when the new fleet is nearly ready and some early Networker withdrawals can be facilitated without fleet size loss, but beyond that there is really nothing available until the new fleet is off the production line.

 

[RUK]

Alstom released a new rendering of the Adessia UK yesterday when the new Prime Minister visited them in Derby, which shows a train which looks like the Aventra (it has what looks like the same windscreen as Classes 345/710/720, and the same lip of the body of the top of the cab on either side of the windscreen, presumably to help brush aside and prevent trees from the side hitting the windscreen first directly and breaking it, but the bottom of the cab looks slightly face-lifted, with the horn moved a bit lower down, so it looks more like an evolution of the Aventra than a completely clean-sheet design - it doesn’t look to be X’TRAPOLIS-based to me, it doesn’t look like the X’TRAPOLIS UK rendering which they offered for Thameslink, which was articulated, I think like SIEMENS’ 2024 Stock for the Tube is, and had shorter 15.6 metre long cars, which were 50 mm wider than a 20 m-long vehicle would be).

The changes look to be door entrances lower than the rest of the interior floors for level boarding, and gap fillers underneath the doors. Presumably it has ramps inside on either side of the doors, like the FLIRT UK does.

It looks to be 5 cars x 20 metres, which would fit Southeastern - it has 4 windows in between the doors like the 20-metre Aventras, rather than 5 windows in between the doors like the 24-metre Aventras have, and has a smaller side cab window, more like the Class 701 ones but perhaps slightly bigger, but smaller than those on Classes 345/720:

I hope that its body will be wider than the Aventra’s is.

Adessia UK:

X’TRAPOLIS UK for Thameslink:

 

[brad465]

If that were to be the new fleet for Southeastern, I hope they do a 4-car form rather than a 5-car. The Victoria routes are 8-car dominant; 10-car will foul junctions at Herne Hill, Brixton and may also not fit in some of the Victoria bay platforms. Bromley North is setup for 4-car as well, and 5-car would be excessive anyway, while Southeastern also need some 12-car metro services, with SDO the problem of Charing X P4-6 is sorted.

The 376s and 707s together can sort out 10-car needs for Southeastern. For Tunbridge Wells, either put 707s on them, or make them 11-car 375s, using 3-car 375s released from the branches by the new metro fleet also taking over that.

 

[PGAT]

If that were to be the new fleet for Southeastern, I hope they do a 4-car form rather than a 5-car. The Victoria routes are 8-car dominant; 10-car will foul junctions at Herne Hill, Brixton and may also not fit in some of the Victoria bay platforms. Bromley North is setup for 4-car as well, and 5-car would be excessive anyway, while Southeastern also need some 12-car metro services, with SDO the problem of Charing X P4-6 is sorted.

The 376s and 707s together can sort out 10-car needs for Southeastern. For Tunbridge Wells, either put 707s on them, or make them 11-car 375s, using 3-car 375s released from the branches by the new metro fleet also taking over that.

Or a mix of 4 and 6 car would allow more flexibility

 

[Geogregor]

Steve White (MD of SE) on Twitter has said the procurement has been completed and they are now awaiting approval for investment.

View attachment 207999

Say what you will about the process but it definitely hasn't been rushed!

Who knows when, or even if, it will get approved, now once we have "king of the North" in charge...

I have seen some activity from south London MPs (like Liam Conlon) lobbying for approval in the media. They might not feel confident if they need to do that...

 

[Goldfish62]

Who knows when, or even if, it will get approved, now once we have "king of the North" in charge...

He'll have no choice if he still wants SE London to have a train service in 10 years time.

Politically of course, it would be preferable to announce Northern's DMU replacement order before or concurrently with the Networker replacement order.

 

[brad465]

He'll have no choice if he still wants SE London to have a train service in 10 years time.

Politically of course, it would be preferable to announce Northern's DMU replacement order before or concurrently with the Networker replacement order.

It would also make political sense to announce any fleet order that will be built in the north, such as the Bakerloo Line fleet at Goole. I don't know if Derby is far enough north to qualify, even though it is well outside London.

 

[Goldfish62]

It would also make political sense to announce any fleet order that will be built in the north, such as the Bakerloo Line fleet at Goole. I don't know if Derby is far enough north to qualify, even though it is well outside London.

Derby comes under "Not the South" so that would be OK...

 

[The Mercian]

Derby is in the Midlands, you know that bit of the country with 12 million people in it.

 

[Mikey C]

Derby is in the Midlands, you know that bit of the country with 12 million people in it.

I think the official divide of England is - London, Manchester ("The North"), whatever

 

[brad465]

The current units placed in the dreaded Grosvenor siding are 466026 and 465904; 466026 was last in service nearly a month ago on the 10th July, while 465904 was more recent on the 17th July.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2026 ==

The last two weeks have seen some 375s being grounded with problems that have led to Networkers covering some diagrams; the most notable cover has been on the 06:42 Ashford-Cannon St, followed by the 16:44 Maidstone East-Victoria and 18:14 return to Ashford. An 8-car Networker has also done the peak Gillingham/Rochester-Blackfriars' diagram every weekday since the Charing X blockade started in lieu of an 8-car 377; this could be because of that blockade, but the fact the aforementioned Ashford diagram is also Networker relief currently suggests not enough Electrostar stock exists for this either. If Southeastern do get hold of more 377s again, it's more likely to be to provide more resilience in the mainline fleet going by this.

 

[DesDobramento]

The current units placed in the dreaded Grosvenor siding are 466026 and 465904; 466026 was last in service nearly a month ago on the 10th July, while 465904 was more recent on the 17th July.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2026 ==

The last two weeks have seen some 375s being grounded with problems that have led to Networkers covering some diagrams; the most notable cover has been on the 06:42 Ashford-Cannon St, followed by the 16:44 Maidstone East-Victoria and 18:14 return to Ashford. An 8-car Networker has also done the peak Gillingham/Rochester-Blackfriars' diagram every weekday since the Charing X blockade started in lieu of an 8-car 377; this could be because of that blockade, but the fact the aforementioned Ashford diagram is also Networker relief currently suggests not enough Electrostar stock exists for this either. If Southeastern do get hold of more 377s again, it's more likely to be to provide more resilience in the mainline fleet going by this.

Networker 465906 managed a single journey 1935 Strood/Paddock Wood on Fri 7/8/2026 during disruption after a 375/3 failure.

 

[wls1]

The last two weeks have seen some 375s being grounded with problems that have led to Networkers covering some diagrams; the most notable cover has been on the 06:42 Ashford-Cannon St, followed by the 16:44 Maidstone East-Victoria and 18:14 return to Ashford. An 8-car Networker has also done the peak Gillingham/Rochester-Blackfriars' diagram every weekday since the Charing X blockade started in lieu of an 8-car 377; this could be because of that blockade, but the fact the aforementioned Ashford diagram is also Networker relief currently suggests not enough Electrostar stock exists for this either. If Southeastern do get hold of more 377s again, it's more likely to be to provide more resilience in the mainline fleet going by this.

8/465 on the Medway Blackfriars runs was booked over the blockade, the Ashford and Maidstone runs however were substitutions

The blockade also saw less usage of 466s as the Victoria - Tunbridge wells services were reduced down to 8 car so they could call additionally at Penge East and West Dulwich due to overcrowding on the Orpington stoppers

 

[Mattplans]

The blockade also saw less usage of 466s as the Victoria - Tunbridge wells services were reduced down to 8 car so they could call additionally at Penge East and West Dulwich due to overcrowding on the Orpington stoppers

So, were they 10 car at the start of the blockade? The decision for additional calls were only made in the 2nd week.

 

[RUK]

Will they add another unit onto the order to allow for a Class 377 to reverse cascade back to Southern to replace 387 304, which derailed at Lewes, since presumably it’s not possible to make another Class 387 to replace the derailed one any more?

 

[Cach17]

Will they add another unit onto the order to allow for a Class 377 to reverse cascade back to Southern to replace 387 304, which derailed at Lewes, since presumably it’s not possible to make another Class 387 to replace the derailed one any more?

At this stage we don't even know if 304 will be written off, depending on how damaged it is.

 

[brad465]

Will they add another unit onto the order to allow for a Class 377 to reverse cascade back to Southern to replace 387 304, which derailed at Lewes, since presumably it’s not possible to make another Class 387 to replace the derailed one any more?

I think it would be beneficial for Southeastern to get the add-on fleet of 70 vehicles on top of the full size 570 carriages, and have a subset of units that can do mainline services akin to what the 465/9s were refurbed to do, which then allows some 377s to return to Southern. If the new fleet has superior acceleration to 377s, then providing they have good interior comfort, they will perform better on mainline services that have frequent calling patterns, such as the Maidstone East Line and Victoria-Gillingham stoppers, particularly if the fleet is given a 100mph top speed (which 707s have).

 

[bramling]

At this stage we don't even know if 304 will be written off, depending on how damaged it is.

Don’t forget also that the GN side has gone from 38x 387 to 43x387/379, with nothing stated anywhere as to how the extra units might be deployed. There are still 5x 379 outstanding to enter traffic, and 387101 remains OOS (*).

Whilst Southern could undoubtedly do with as many units as possible, I don’t think one missing unit is going to make a massive difference within such a large fleet.

And, as others have said, it’s not yet known whether 387304 is a write-off. It may well be repairable.

(* regarding 387101, although it has been showing on RTT as being allocated over the weekend, I wonder if this is a data error, as from what I’ve seen the unit is on one of the high level sidings at Hornsey since last week and doesn’t seem to have moved).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If Networkers go for C4 overhauls, can we see one in GBR livery?

 

[GEC465]

It's a possibility but I doubt it