Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 175 for GWR?

[Ashley Hill]

Exeter crews work LHS so could happily work EXD-PNZ. Whether this is the 3 day coaches off the sleeper (like Saturdays a few years ago) or hired in stock it could be an answer for a few months.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Exeter crews work LHS so could happily work EXD-PNZ. Whether this is the 3 day coaches off the sleeper (like Saturdays a few years ago) or hired in stock it could be an answer for a few months.

Is there any PRM complaint LCHS rolling stock fit for traffic?

 

[Amlag]

Is there any PRM complaint LCHS rolling stock fit for traffic?

I’m sure Jeremy Hosking‘s Crewe Depot and Eastern Rail services at Great Yarmouth could help ailing GWR.

 

[CR165022]

How about Chiltern loan a few 165/0s to cover the Thames branches, then send 165/1s over to Bristol and Exeter, which then cascade other units onto 175 routes? The main challenge will be training drivers as the class is technically different to 165/1s.

Chiltern are already struggling with reliability of their own units as it is so I very much doubt they'll be able to send a few over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2026 ==

Is there any PRM complaint LCHS rolling stock fit for traffic?

The 4 plug door MK3 sets just withdrawn from Chiltern perhaps? Although, they're complaint yes but fit for traffic is another thing!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’m sure Jeremy Hosking‘s Crewe Depot and Eastern Rail services at Great Yarmouth could help ailing GWR.

Are they not all slam door trains that aren’t PRM compliant?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2026 ==

Chiltern are already struggling with reliability of their own units as it is so I very much doubt they'll be able to send a few over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2026 ==


The 4 plug door MK3 sets just withdrawn from Chiltern perhaps? Although, they're complaint yes but fit for traffic is another thing!

They were withdrawn as life expired and needing heavy overhaul…

 

[InTheEastMids]

If GWR's most diehard optimists have been reading some of the many and varied "EMR are a total shambles" threads on here, they will have perhaps observed the informed gossip there is about the ex-Avanti 221s.

This may lead them to ask, "Wait, so this means that some 180s are available?"

Gone so far past the bottom of the barrel here, that I might in fact be scraping the Earth's core.

 

[Snow1964]

When are LNERs new tri modes (class 897) to replace the mk4s due ?

The order was November 2023, and I vaguely remember talk of entering service in 3 years time when they were ordered

Could the mk4 coaches be paired with 67s (or even 57s which some of the crews know as they are used on Night Riveira) and used on a limited number of services to minimise training.

Actually if ignored sets coming up to overhaul might be able to muster a handful, and use them as is, putting them on selected Paddington-Cardiff workings, freeing up IET stock that crews already know for Exeter-Penzance etc

 

[YorkshireBear]

When are LNERs new tri modes (class 897) to replace the mk4s due ?

The order was November 2023, and I vaguely remember talk of entering service in 3 years time when they were ordered

Could the mk4 coaches be paired with 67s (or even 57s which some of the crews know as they are used on Night Riveira) and used on a limited number of services to minimise training.

Actually if ignored sets coming up to overhaul might be able to muster a handful, and use them as is, putting them on selected Paddington-Cardiff workings, freeing up IET stock that crews already know for Exeter-Penzance etc

The 897s are very late, normal late plus Valencia flooding impact.

 

[Doomotron]

Could the mk4 coaches be paired with 67s (or even 57s which some of the crews know as they are used on Night Riveira) and used on a limited number of services to minimise training.

The Mark 4s would need to be converted to work with 57s or 67s, so it's a bit of a non-starter really.

 

[Apedlar12]

Pathed as a 175 so presumably so

We need more units out on milage accumulation and getting them working soon as the service is currently very very fragile.

I read elsewhere today that apparently GWR might be now taking on the TfW 158s. If true I don't know what that would mean for the 175s...

 

[BillStampy]

I read elsewhere today that apparently GWR might be now taking on the TfW 158s. If true I don't know what that would mean for the 175s...

It'll be quite a competition for those 158s as I think most operators that have them would want some more!

 

[Snow1964]

I read elsewhere today that apparently GWR might be now taking on the TfW 158s. If true I don't know what that would mean for the 175s...

There are multiple rumours, but I am guessing some serious contingency planning must be on the table by now. The first 175s arrived over 18 months ago, and they just don't seem to be fixable to the point of doing 1000 fault free miles.

There have been talk of the TfW 158s, even some of the TfW 150s (others are virtually out of miles before expensive overhaul).

But there were supposed to be enhancements, Cornwall metro, some lengthening of Bristol area trains, Okehampton, Portishead, Restoring 4 or 5car on Cardiff-Portsmouth etc. If 175s don't work need extra other stock for this.

The frustration is that there are spare EMUs, but because of the lack of extending electrification, they are going for scrap, whilst the 34-40 diesel units struggle on, but have no replacements on order.

In blunt terms, currently policy is 175s or nothing, and with 175s continuing not to work, nothing is accidently becoming the outcome, but continuing nothing with a fleet approaching 40 years old is not practical, hence the ideas of scrabbling around for whatever can be got.

 

[thelongestroad]

The frustration is that there are spare EMUs, but because of the lack of extending electrification, they are going for scrap, whilst the 34-40 diesel units struggle on, but have no replacements on order.

What EMUs are currently spare? Anything similar to the Electrostar family? Could they remove the remaining Cardiff 800 diagrams and make them EMUs?

 

[TastyMaltesers]

What EMUs are currently spare? Anything similar to the Electrostar family? Could they remove the remaining Cardiff 800 diagrams and make them EMUs?

Some problems with that;
* Electrostars don't exactly have the same 1st class or catering offering as an IET.
* Electrostars have a lower top speed, and the current IET Cardiff diagrams probably feature the units also working on other routes - so therefore the timetables would need to be completely rewritten.
* If the main route is blocked for whatever reason, all diversionary routes are unelectrified.

 

[Towers]

I’ll add to the wild speculation bombfire and ask how long before the 769s are looked at again?!

 

[spark001uk]

From experience, sitting on an ironing board (387) from London to Cardiff isn't the most comfortable ride.
Then again, at least you're not sat with a metal bar digging into your backside I suppose.

 

[thelongestroad]

From experience, sitting on an ironing board (387) from London to Cardiff isn't the most comfortable ride.
Then again, at least you're not sat with a metal bar digging into your backside I suppose.

I'd take a 387 over an 800!

 

[Towers]

In blunt terms, currently policy is 175s or nothing, and with 175s continuing not to work, nothing is accidently becoming the outcome, but continuing nothing with a fleet approaching 40 years old is not practical, hence the ideas of scrabbling around for whatever can be got.

The 175s cannot be beyond salavtion, they worked previously after all! It all rather sounds as though there was an expectation - possibly from all sides - that the project would be largely a light recommissioning and into service, whereas the reality has turned out to be that a far heavier degree of work is needed. They’ll get them running I’m sure, it’ll be a case of extended timeframes rather than complete impossibility.

 

[cactustwirly]

What EMUs are currently spare? Anything similar to the Electrostar family? Could they remove the remaining Cardiff 800 diagrams and make them EMUs?

I don't think there are that many 387s spare

 

[Snow1964]

What EMUs are currently spare? Anything similar to the Electrostar family? Could they remove the remaining Cardiff 800 diagrams and make them EMUs?

I think it was seeing 321s off to scrap

The 175s cannot be beyond salavtion, they worked previously after all! It all rather sounds as though there was an expectation - possibly from all sides - that the project would be largely a light recommissioning and into service, whereas the reality has turned out to be that a far heavier degree of work is needed. They’ll get them running I’m sure, it’ll be a case of extended timeframes rather than complete impossibility.

Totally agree, the cascade to Bristol area by December 2026 timetable change, and the withdrawal of remaining HSTs was based on getting a fair number in service before the busy 2026 summer season.

Bristol suburban usage has grown massively (and ORR figures confirm this), so some 2car need to become 3car, and some 3car need to become 2+2car. But it can't happen whilst 158s and turbos can't be released from Devon

 

[TastyMaltesers]

Bristol suburban usage has grown massively (and ORR figures confirm this), so some 2car need to become 3car, and some 3car need to become 2+2car. But it can't happen whilst 158s and turbos can't be released from Devon

At the risk of veering further off-topic: stations from Avonmouth to Severn Beach are restricted to 3 cars maximum.

 

[bramling]

I don't think there are that many 387s spare

There aren’t really any.

The only readily spare EMUs were the 350/2s, however these are now confirmed as going to Northern.

This leaves classes 323 and 458, however neither are suitable for GWR’s needs. It would be theoretically possible to release some 387s by deploying 458s to Southern, however there would be a number of logistical issues in doing this, and it wouldn’t be able to be done quickly.

 

[DelW]

The 175s cannot be beyond salavtion, they worked previously after all! It all rather sounds as though there was an expectation - possibly from all sides - that the project would be largely a light recommissioning and into service, whereas the reality has turned out to be that a far heavier degree of work is needed. They’ll get them running I’m sure, it’ll be a case of extended timeframes rather than complete impossibility.

One frustrating aspect of all this is that it was so unnecessary. On withdrawal from TfW, the 175s could have been put one at a time through an overhaul and refurbishment programme, then fed into GWR stock in good time for training to take place and 175s to be introduced progressively as Castle sets were withdrawn. Instead of which they were dumped in open storage until after the Castles had gone, in the unfulfilled hope that they could then be rushed into service. That's proved impossible, and GWR local and regional services have gone down the pan as a direct result.

I’ll add to the wild speculation bombfire and ask how long before the 769s are looked at again?!

They're available and already in the right livery, why not give them a go before the remaining 150s have to be withdrawn and services collapse altogether? Hopefully they have been stored more carefully than the 175s were though.

It was alleged that they were unreliable when tested on the North Downs, but a poster on here (who I think was in a good position to know), said that the initial problems had been overcome, and that it was purely DfT cost-slashing that dictated their removal.

Up against a fleet that has one or two trains a day in actual service after over a year of trying, they are surely worth reconsidering.

 

[Goldfish62]

GWR doesn't have any spare stock end of!

Even assuming a full 175 deployment it will still be short of Turbos for its Thames Valley services and running chronically overcrowded 5-car IETs on long distance services.

 

[apbj]

* Electrostars don't exactly have the same 1st class or catering offering as an IET.

GWR doesn't give a hoot about that. They won't refund the First Class excess on an 800 journey without catering or with catering but without a seat.

 

[Apedlar12]

This is the first I've heard of that, aside from rampant speculation about the half a dozen TOCs that would potentially want a 158 when TfW are done with them (which they might not be any time soon, given their own stock shortages)

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This is what was said:

"A Northern stakeholder meeting today confirms that GWR will be getting 22 Ex TFW 158 units but 4 will subleased to Northern so they can do some mods on the 195 fleet"

 

[TastyMaltesers]

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This is what was said:

"A Northern stakeholder meeting today confirms that GWR will be getting 22 Ex TFW 158 units but 4 will subleased to Northern so they can do some mods on the 195 fleet"

Thank you for the information

 

[Goldfish62]

There was a plan for GWR to take TfW 158s but they couldn't due to lack of new rolling stocks from TfW also what 287s can GWR run on without OHLE?

According to post #4091 above GWR are taking all 22 remaining Class 158s.

Meanwhile, GWR have issued a stakeholder update re the 175s. I can't elaborate because without access to the source material I'd be in breach of forum roles merely pasting the quote with no link here. Hopefully someone else will be able to do so.

 

[Caaardiff]

On a mechanical front, I'm sure if anyone sees a long term future for them at GWR they will be able to get on top of them - TfW had fewer issues with them and they (historically speaking) majorly outperformed the 180s.

TFW managed to run their long distance services (North Wales to Manchester and South Wales to Manchester) with the whole fleet, which although was often overcrowded, was mostly covered by the 175 fleet. Availability was pretty good considering how stretched the fleet was.

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This is what was said:

"A Northern stakeholder meeting today confirms that GWR will be getting 22 Ex TFW 158 units but 4 will subleased to Northern so they can do some mods on the 195 fleet"

There was talk within TFW that some 158's were staying. They are also going through availability issues with the 197 fleet. With the impending launch of the Cambrian 197's, it could come back and bite them.

TFW will also be getting rid of the remaining 150's soon. Not all of them have expiring C exams, so if GWR are that desperate that could take on some of the remaining 150's. No doubt they will get tied up in new leasing red tape if taken on, so I wonder if TFW could sub-lease them to GWR temporarily ?

 

[Towers]

TFW managed to run their long distance services (North Wales to Manchester and South Wales to Manchester) with the whole fleet, which although was often overcrowded, was mostly covered by the 175 fleet. Availability was pretty good considering how stretched the fleet was.


There was talk within TFW that some 158's were staying. They are also going through availability issues with the 197 fleet. With the impending launch of the Cambrian 197's, it could come back and bite them.

TFW will also be getting rid of the remaining 150's soon. Not all of them have expiring C exams, so if GWR are that desperate that could take on some of the remaining 150's. No doubt they will get tied up in new leasing red tape if taken on, so I wonder if TFW could sub-lease them to GWR temporarily ?

Given that the 150s are destined for scrap, you would think that a new lease would be actively encouraged and done with the only necessary minimum of ‘red tape’!