sytransport
Member
If they expand in franchising they’d be winning one of the current depots so can’t see that being a reason. A new garage that size for the potential of winning small contracts seems silly. All seems a bit strange and unclear.
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West Yorkshire bus franchising
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Apologies - I'll explain what I mean.
They have either bought the land and have submitted a planning application, so that's a interesting speculative development; OR they have agreed a lease (at least in principle) and have submitted a planning application.
What they haven't done is just submit a planning application for no reason. Without some sort of lease, at least in principle, because it would rather weaken your position with the landlord.
Fourways HAS engineering workshops https://www.fourwaycoaches.co.uk/garage-services/
I'm not familiar with all the nuances of all the packages (major, minor, schools) and where they will be based.
The premises in the frame for compulsory purchase are Bramley, Huddersfield (assume First rather than Transdev), Dewsbury, Otley (bus station?), Hunslet, Castleford, Halifax (Elmwood), Keighley, Bradford https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s45173/Item 7 - Appendix 4 - Statutory Notices.pdf
So assuming that there's other locations required to be operator supplied?
There is an appendix to that document that lists the exact locations
Notable that the legacy First depots are owned by “Rider Holdings”
Otley is the lease on the bus station
Here it is https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s45171/Item 7 - Appendix 1 - Draft CPO Order.pdf
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YorkRailFan
Established Member
Yet their service bus fleet is sent to Hull for maintenance...
Could it be for schools work? I can't see Go Ahead expanding Fourways' coach business with private hire work. Perhaps Go Ahead is considering contracts with Flixbus using Fourways from West Yorkshire?
It’s already been confirmed it’s for bus franchising it says so in the planning application, either B contracts or school C contracts. If in the unlikely event they win nothing, they just won’t go ahead with the plans.
Near in mind also that Go Ahead will create a separate proper company if and when they win franchises in West Yorks. Piggy backing on Fourways, Proctors and support from East Yorkshire was just a way to get their foot in the door
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Well of course, West Yorkshire will have to be run in a different manner to East Yorkshire given that the former will be franchised. In the same way that Go Ahead have appointed a separate manager for Go North East & Go North West following gains in the Liverpool City Region Franchising.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Thanks for that - really appreciated. I remembered that the bus station wasn't Metro owned, hence the relatively rudimentary design.
A little surprised that Heckmondwike isn't on the list or is that something else I've missed?
It may be that Fourways are doing the day to day maintenance but for inspections and heavy engineering work, they either don't have capacity or capability to do it.
The fact that they've done this suggests they are confident on having secured something.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
If a bus breaks down, Fourways can fix it. But for bodywork, paintwork, MOT, etc, the buses are sent to Hull. Same for all depots within East Yorkshire Buses. Any new buses are also sent to Hull for preparation prior to entering service with Fourways.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The moderngov website is geoblocked so I can't read what any of the reports say. But I note that Wakefield (depot or bus station- the latter is still owned by Arriva isn't it?) isn't on the list you copied either.Thanks for that - really appreciated. I remembered that the bus station wasn't Metro owned, hence the relatively rudimentary design.
A little surprised that Heckmondwike isn't on the list or is that something else I've missed?
They always were, just for some reason First never changed the name of the property holding company. Rider Holdings is a wholly owned subsidiary of First West Yorkshire Limited (formerly Yorkshire Rider Limited).
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
They're probably doing the day to day maintenance at Fourways and cycling through Hull only for the heavy and specialist work which is not uncommon e.g. Western National did that with Camborne.
It may have been a pragmatic view that whilst they were testing the market and understanding West Yorkshire, they were loathe to upset their existing operations and third party customers at Fourways and using the workshops there only as a "running shed" in old parlance. IF they have secured a lower tier/schools package, then getting their own base may have proved necessary.
Ah right... so that means Castleford and Wakefield (new depot), and Keighley and Bradford, are in different areas? Apologies - less up to speed on West Yorkshire than Murkeyside
Yes it’sThey're probably doing the day to day maintenance at Fourways and cycling through Hull only for the heavy and specialist work which is not uncommon e.g. Western National did that with Camborne.
It may have been a pragmatic view that whilst they were testing the market and understanding West Yorkshire, they were loathe to upset their existing operations and third party customers at Fourways and using the workshops there only as a "running shed" in old parlance. IF they have secured a lower tier/schools package, then getting their own base may have proved necessary.
Ah right... so that means Castleford and Wakefield (new depot), and Keighley and Bradford, are in different areas? Apologies - less up to speed on West Yorkshire than Murkeyside
Phase 1 - Huddersfield, Heavy Woollen, Leeds 1
Phase 2 - Wakefield, Five Towns, Leeds 2
Phase 3 - Bradford, Keighley, Calderdale
With the main A contract of the Wakefield part now actually not going live until Phase 3 due to the new depot not being ready in time
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Its pretty much the same set-up as Go Ahead in Cornwall with cycling buses through Milehouse for maintenance.
Which seems quite likely given the planning application they have now submitted.
*Some* heavy maintenance for coaches at Fourways is done in Hull I believe.
anothertyke
Member
I would say yes. Or at least recognise their past history with grandfather rights for a 3 to 5 year period. You don't want any of the energy of the big boys taken up with minnows such as the routes which the SMEs operate in W Yorks. The goal in the short term should be consistent operation of the core networks and in the medium term infrasturcture and operational plans for those networks. Leave square peg and connexions alone to do what they do, subject to them maintaining quality standards.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Thanks for that - makes sense.
There's a lot of examples. First Cymru have a main base (Ravenhill) doing the majority of heavy maintenance (though Port Talbot still does a bit) with others being running sheds (day to day maintenance) or yards.
As I say, they haven't done it without a reason!
mattb7tl
Member
The only depots owned by the authority will be A lots. B and C lots are meant to be run exclusively by private depots. This was an independent friendly move as none of the large companies would have a private depot to run from as they would be authority owned meaning independents are the only option.
We do not know if a private depot can bid to run A lot services, but based on this it seems like a good hint.
Bristol LHS
Member
The covering letter for the application says the yard will initially be used for 40 buses, expanding to 100 ‘subject to securing additional contracts’ - do those numbers point to particular outcomes (would the 40 be Fourways current allocation?)
The full planning document is here
It says the depot is for bus franchising
I've no idea what contracts they've entered into. I'm just pointing out there's no obligation to own or lease a property to submit a planning application.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It would be odd if they made a planning application on something that they didn’t own or were taking a lease on.
Leedsbusman
Member
Not at all in this context. At best I believe an agreement in principle to enter into a lease or sale if planning permission is granted is likely. That protects both parties.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Apologies - it is something that I said earlier in the thread that they will have an "in principle" lease agreed. My point is that they haven't just done it on a whim or made a random move
citybus2500
Member
The Fourways depot on Whitehall Road is owned by Travel Caledonian with space rented out to Go-Ahead, hence the "limited" facilities. Things are also a bit cosy there at times since the Bradford work started.
The intention is that there can be no crossover between depots and Lots. There are also 5 existing group operator depots that are not included as Lot A depots, 3 with Transdev and 2 with Arriva, so it could be argued that they have an inbuilt advantage. Some of the Lot B contracts are quite chunky.
The intention is that there can be no crossover between depots and Lots. There are also 5 existing group operator depots that are not included as Lot A depots, 3 with Transdev and 2 with Arriva, so it could be argued that they have an inbuilt advantage. Some of the Lot B contracts are quite chunky.
Leedsbusman
Member
I’m not sure anyone suggest it was a whimsical move!Apologies - it is something that I said earlier in the thread that they will have an "in principle" lease agreed. My point is that they haven't just done it on a whim or made a random move
Notice of a planning application has to be served on all parties who not owners by the applicant. Obviously its beneficial to have some sort of agreement with the owner(s) but it is not essential. It may simply be that an agreement is that the owners will not object to the application.
Almost two weeks later, and stop with a shelter which had both paper timetables and an electronic display now still has a new one with an empty timetable frame and no electronic display. Why is everything WYCA touches rather third rate?
Ballyheigue
Member
The former shelter at the Tommy Wass junction Middleton bound in Leeds had an electronic display, the new one hasn't and by the looks of things probably never will. It's a stop where hourly services stop so it's vital it should have one, even the more frequent services that stop there such as the 2 and 12 have periods where they are a lot less frequent.
Not everyone wants to use tracking apps as it's yet another bloody app taking up data (in the words of one bus user stood at the stop wondering why there isn't a display), not everybody wants to go through the hassle of getting their phone out, logging on to it, loading the app, typing in the bus number, then scrolling for the stop to estimate how far away it is, and like me, not everyone has a smart phone, so why haven't clueless WYCA simply taken out the electronic display system from the old shelter, and wired it into the new shelter, after all there is space for it. Tax payers have paid for this system that saves them hassle, all customers need to do is look at a screen which does all the work for them so why do WYCA think it's not needed, because their lack of action on providing a system at Tommy Wass suggests this! WYCA feels just like the likes of Tesco and their self service tills, you do the work whilst we save money!
You don't need an app.
They've a website where you just type in the stop number (you can search for it if you don't know it).
That may be the case, but if a useful facility has been removed it doesn't sound like an improvement whichever way you look at it.
I wasn't arguing that it wasn't, just trying to help those for whom an app is to much trouble.
For me the web page for my local stop autoloads when I type "y" into my browser.