Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Northerngirl]

The record I believe (as achieved by SP or Wigan L& Y drivers) between Wigan and Southport is between 16 and 17 minutes............by steam and via Blowick (until 1964).
At late as 1978 17.10 Man Vic-Southport was 53 minutes (stopping Salford, Wigan W, Meols Cop & Southport) 6 car Class 104.

That would be something else these days, In a perfect world we'd have some fasts still

 

[david l]

Wed 6/8

4 start the day 424/34/50/58.
2 x 2 car 156 DMU's (414 & 427) covering off SP.
Of the others 431 failed on 1/8 at ???, 442 finished at AN 5/8, 456 finished at SP 5/8, 448 at Brodies since 4/7.

 

[Geeves]

So when we finally have the new timetable will 769s be withdrawn so there be a Southport to Wigan Wallgate dmu branchline and a Wallgate to Headbolt Lane dmu Branchline?

No branch lines.

769s should be concentrated purely on Oxford Rd to Southport from next year. That will be their only route

 

[D9006]

Indeed - Southport is 10mph within station limits, and then only 20mph all the way to Meols Cop; so no great hurry to get going!

Is line speed 60mph max between Wigan and Southport too, also to Bolton too plus the Atherton Branch

 

[david l]

Is line speed 60mph max between Wigan and Southport too, also to Bolton too plus the Atherton Branch

In general:-
Line speed Wigan -Southport is 70 with further restrictions at Wigan W (20), then between Gathurst and Appley Bridge (50), then reductions at Pool Hey LC (50) then Meols Cop (20), Southport N Junc (10) into Southport
Line speed Wigan-Lostock Junc is 60 from Wigan Station Junc, 50 over Crow Nest Junc, Lostock Junc is 35 to Bolton/40 from Bolton then to the tunnels at Bolton is 75 (but has an MU of 90 from the Chorley line)
Line speed on the Atherton line Crow Nest Junc-Salford Crescent is 50 (40 restriction at the old Agecroft Junc), and 30 into Salford Crescent

The restriction on the Atherton line is 'allegedly' due to long-standing subsidence, but as virtually all trains are 'all stops' (except Moorside for some) it has little effect other than between Atherton & Walkden. Complete change from old as this was the fastest/shortest route to Manchester and is these days an absolute backwater - lets see if Metrolink/TfgM get their way!

The Atherton line you refer to as a 'branch' and this is completely appropriate in view of the foliage/tree branches that clobbers all trains both ways for a considerable period. In fact the foliage on either side is surely the worst in the North West and starts with a good clout immediately coming out of Wigan Wallgate after having gone under Wallgate bridge.

 

[SECR 65]

I would hope, when all eight units are in the operational ppol, 6 diagrams covered should be easier? 6/7 for an unreliable fleet is hard, but once they've bedded in more, and all 8 are around, might get better? Although for eight units in a fleet, one might hope for seven diagrams?

 

[david l]

I would hope, when all eight units are in the operational ppol, 6 diagrams covered should be easier? 6/7 for an unreliable fleet is hard, but once they've bedded in more, and all 8 are around, might get better? Although for eight units in a fleet, one might hope for seven diagrams?

With respects, you can but hope! The 'bedding' in, you would have hoped, would result in greater availability but this has simply not been the case. The work at Brodies has mainly been corrosion work, together with some door reliability work, but not all have received below the solebar work. They look very nice, having all been re-painted, but that doesn't count for much in the work/non-work stakes.

Thurs 6/8
5 started the day 424/31/34/42/56. 1 x 4 car 156 DMU (414/427) covering off SP.
However Manchester ROC losing power this afternoon has caused chaos, so no point blaming any 769's or even working out if any have failed!

 

[Class 466]

With respects, you can but hope! The 'bedding' in, you would have hoped, would result in greater availability but this has simply not been the case. The work at Brodies has mainly been corrosion work, together with some door reliability work, but not all have received below the solebar work. They look very nice, having all been re-painted, but that doesn't count for much in the work/non-work stakes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2026 ==

Thurs 6/8
5 started the day 424/31/34/42/56. 1 x 4 car 156 DMU (414/427) covering off SP.
However Manchester ROC losing power this afternoon has caused chaos, so no point blaming any 769's or even working out if any have failed!

Odds on one probably still found a way to fail without moving!

 

[david l]

Fri 7/8
After yesterdays signalling problems all over, you might have thought that some of the 769's would be 'not available'.
However 6 start the day!! 424/34/42/50/56/58.
424 and 456 have started from Southport & 442 from Stalybridge, presume thats where they were left overnight. Must be some drivers in taxis this morning!!

 

[D9006]

In general:-
Line speed Wigan -Southport is 70 with further restrictions at Wigan W (20), then between Gathurst and Appley Bridge (50), then reductions at Pool Hey LC (50) then Meols Cop (20), Southport N Junc (10) into Southport
Line speed Wigan-Lostock Junc is 60 from Wigan Station Junc, 50 over Crow Nest Junc, Lostock Junc is 35 to Bolton/40 from Bolton then to the tunnels at Bolton is 75 (but has an MU of 90 from the Chorley line)
Line speed on the Atherton line Crow Nest Junc-Salford Crescent is 50 (40 restriction at the old Agecroft Junc), and 30 into Salford Crescent

The restriction on the Atherton line is 'allegedly' due to long-standing subsidence, but as virtually all trains are 'all stops' (except Moorside for some) it has little effect other than between Atherton & Walkden. Complete change from old as this was the fastest/shortest route to Manchester and is these days an absolute backwater - lets see if Metrolink/TfgM get their way!

The Atherton line you refer to as a 'branch' and this is completely appropriate in view of the foliage/tree branches that clobbers all trains both ways for a considerable period. In fact the foliage on either side is surely the worst in the North West and starts with a good clout immediately coming out of Wigan Wallgate after having gone under Wallgate bridge.

Thank you for a very informative piece on line speeds, had a non stop run from Hindley to Salford crescent when line was blocked via westhoughton, the 769 seem to idle most of the way, was early into crescent. As to foliage Daisy Hill is my local the foliage in between the running lines makes it like a disused track

 

[Jamesrob637]

456 is definitely out today: just saw it in Stalyvegas.

Currently on 434 for a spin from Bolton to Westhoughton

And on 456 for a spin from Westhoughton to Manchester Oxford Road

 

[AM9]

... the 769 seem to idle most of the way, was early into crescent. ...

That's the benefit of diesel-electric traction, the engine speed drops to a speed where the generator can provide sufficient power for the load, - no need to spin at a speed representative of the wheels on the track.

 

[childwallblues]

In general:-
Line speed Wigan -Southport is 70 with further restrictions at Wigan W (20), then between Gathurst and Appley Bridge (50), then reductions at Pool Hey LC (50) then Meols Cop (20), Southport N Junc (10) into Southport
Line speed Wigan-Lostock Junc is 60 from Wigan Station Junc, 50 over Crow Nest Junc, Lostock Junc is 35 to Bolton/40 from Bolton then to the tunnels at Bolton is 75 (but has an MU of 90 from the Chorley line)
Line speed on the Atherton line Crow Nest Junc-Salford Crescent is 50 (40 restriction at the old Agecroft Junc), and 30 into Salford Crescent

The restriction on the Atherton line is 'allegedly' due to long-standing subsidence, but as virtually all trains are 'all stops' (except Moorside for some) it has little effect other than between Atherton & Walkden. Complete change from old as this was the fastest/shortest route to Manchester and is these days an absolute backwater - lets see if Metrolink/TfgM get their way!

The Atherton line you refer to as a 'branch' and this is completely. appropriate in view of the foliage/tree branches that clobbers all trains both ways for a considerable period. In fact the foliage on either side is surely the worst in the North West and starts with a good clout immediately coming out of Wigan Wallgate after having gone under Wallgate bridge.

Considering that the Atherton line was part of the Lancashire and Yorkshire main lne between Manchester and Liverpool its demise has been nothing short of disgraceful

 

[MrBeanie]

These were seen in action yesterday:
769434 on Stalybridge to Southport at Victoria (rode from Victoria to Salford)
769458 on Oxford Road to Southport at Salford Crescent (rode from Salford to Bolton)
769442 on Southport to Oxford Road at Bolton
769434 on Southport to Oxford Road at Wigan Wallgate (rode from Wigan to Oxford Road)
769450 on Southport to Oxford Road at Oxford Road
769450 at Stalybridge in the evening

 

[david l]

Sat 8/8
5 started and finished the day 434/42/50/56/58. 1 x 2 car 150 DMU (108) covering off NH (should have been AN)
Swaps to finish meant 434 finished at SP not AN, 442 finished at SP not NH, 458 finished at AN not SP.
Next week sees Man Vic east block (again).

 

[EyeKay]

Considering that the Atherton line was part of the Lancashire and Yorkshire main lne between Manchester and Liverpool its demise has been nothing short of disgraceful

However, one of several Manchester to Liverpool main lines. There is no justification for retaining then all as fast routes. Stand by for an off topic discussion about the merits of each route!!

 

[david l]

Mon 10/8
Amended diagrams this week as nothing to Stalybridge (terminate at Man Vic) Seems to rule out one diagram (the one that starts at NH but of the others 4 finish up at different locations than normal)
434/42/50/56/58 in use.
424 last noted ECS to AN 7/8, 431 failed on 6/8, 448 at Brodies since 4/7.

Tues 11/8
5 start the day 434/42/50/56/58. Again 4 finish up at differing locations to normal diagrams but 3 to SP, 2 to AN.

 

[notspy]

Looks like 442 has decided to break down conveniently at Deansgate today on 2O75

 

[david l]

Looks like 442 has decided to break down conveniently at Deansgate today on 2O75

By lunchtime 2 of the 5 gave up the ghost.
442 has now gone to SP as 5W00 but via Bolton as opposed to path via Chat Moss, but also sat at Wigan NW for 75 minutes this afternoon before finding its way to SP..
458 also appears to have run into problems at Man Vic failing before working 2W15 to Southport.
431 appeared from SP sidings (presume having sat there since failing 6/8) and went into the headshunt. was running on diesel and appears to be allocated to 2W22 16.27 Man Ox Rd-Southport and rest of diagram vacated by 458 - but was still sat at SP at 15.15...........
442's diagram now being covered by 156411, itself split from a 4 car Manchester-Southport (with 461).
So the score so far is 2 failures, 4 full cancellations, 2 part cancellations, and now 2 shortforms - and a unit that has sat at SP for 5 days now out on diesel - and its not hot yet!

 

[1D53]

By lunchtime 2 of the 5 gave up the ghost.
442 has now gone to SP as 5W00 but via Bolton as opposed to path via Chat Moss, but also sat at Wigan NW for 75 minutes this afternoon before finding its way to SP..
458 also appears to have run into problems at Man Vic failing before working 2W15 to Southport.

2W15 was cancelled as 458 went to Deansgate to assist 442 which had suffered a loss of air.

 

[david l]

2W15 was cancelled as 458 went to Deansgate to assist 442 which had suffered a loss of air.

Ta. Having waited at SP for 5W00 to appear for some time I left around 10 minutes before it moved from Wigan North Western!
Just shows, 1 failure leads to chaos, with 1 causing 2 failures, leading to 4 full and 2 part cancellations with 2 shortformed units (xx number of services)
Perhaps time to review properly the usage of the 769's.....

 

[Calderdale Ian]

2W15 was cancelled as 458 went to Deansgate to assist 442 which had suffered a loss of air.

442 failed at Victoria platform 2 with the brakes stuck on / compressor problem 24th July and needed a protracted rescue the next day ... is this a recurrence of that fault or another one to the tally ?

 

[david l]

Wed 12/8
3 start the day 431/50/58. No 769's out of AN, so 1 x 2 car 150 DMU (129) & 1 x 2 car 156 DMU (408) covering, both off AN!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Wed 12/8
3 start the day 431/50/58. No 769's out of AN, so 1 x 2 car 150 DMU (129) & 1 x 2 car 156 DMU (408) covering, both off AN!

Probably worth noting there's one less Southport diagram this week due to works east of Victoria meaning Stalybridge trains don't need to do their long wait to fit back into their path.
I assume it's probably a 769 diagram cut.
Never mind just realised it was already mentioned upthread

 

[Class 466]

Wed 12/8
3 start the day 431/50/58. No 769's out of AN, so 1 x 2 car 150 DMU (129) & 1 x 2 car 156 DMU (408) covering, both off AN!

Looks like they’ll once again be having the day off tomorrow with the list of published cancellations already downstream.

 

[david l]

Looks like they’ll once again be having the day off tomorrow with the list of published cancellations already downstream.

Thurs 13/8
Surprisingly 3 start the day 424/31/50, but working Southport-Man Vic services as all the Oxford Road services are cancelled.
It would therefore appear that the cancellations are not 769 relates, but perhaps NR imposed to 'improve' reliability in the Castlefield/Deansgate area.........strange

 

[Northerngirl]

Im amazed they haven't been cut back to Bolton yet, atleast that keeps them away from giveing up on a major route, and probably isnt all that much longer journey times into the city

 

[Geeves]

A problem around Bolton or Wigan still stiches up a very busy section of railway, virtually every train from Victoria goes there so If you were going along that route then terminating at Wigan Wallgate would be the best, but that would not be very fair on the Southport line passengers.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Im amazed they haven't been cut back to Bolton yet, atleast that keeps them away from giveing up on a major route, and probably isnt all that much longer journey times into the city

What would take over the stops at Moses Gate, Kearsley, and Farnworth? Those are only served by Southport-Stalybridge services.

Ignoring Clifton because it only gets 1 per day each way anyway

 

[Class 466]

Thurs 13/8
Surprisingly 3 start the day 424/31/50, but working Southport-Man Vic services as all the Oxford Road services are cancelled.
It would therefore appear that the cancellations are not 769 relates, but perhaps NR imposed to 'improve' reliability in the Castlefield/Deansgate area.........strange

The block preventing access to Newton Heath Depot from Victoria easily has somewhat limited the available units to entirely stop using the fantastically reliable 769s.