Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Class 466]

Not to sure how long its going to be there but 769442 has been stuck at Manchester Victoria Platform 2 since last night with Compressor issues meaning its brakes are stuck on, it was meant to end its day at Newton Heath but got cancelled at Victoria.

With this being stuck on Platform 2 it could cause some issues at Victoria today with services having to use other platforms to terminate.

Thankfully TPE are diverting via the Calder Valley today so weren’t planning on using Platform 2 and the Northern 1Js can use P1

 

[david l]

Thankfully TPE are diverting via the Calder Valley today so weren’t planning on using Platform 2 and the Northern 1Js can use P1

769442 is booked on 5J95 21.43 Man Vic-NH tonight (being assisted by 769450 off 2J95)

 

[Geeves]

769442 is booked on 5J95 21.43 Man Vic-NH tonight (being assisted by 769450 off 2J95)

I look forward to the doom on my shift again later this is NOT going to be pretty! There was some very large fuses being removed, we tried all the tricks after it died on departure. Can't wait to see what happens with it all hanging out the east end.

 

[david l]

I look forward to the doom on my shift again later this is NOT going to be pretty! There was some very large fuses being removed, we tried all the tricks after it died on departure. Can't wait to see what happens with it all hanging out the east end.

Not really sure what the current position is. 769450 went from Southport to Stalybridge as booked, then its last service the return to Man.Vic appears to have been cancelled, but yet 450 appears to have gone from Man Vic to NH without 442, as there is still showing a 5J95 'Fail' at Man Vic platform 2.
None of the 769's work on a Sunday anyway, and as Wigan to Southport is closed Mon-Fri for track relaying in the Parbold area then there will be plenty of units allegedly 'spare' so recovery of 442 won't be of the highest priority.

Seems that most (if not all) of the Manchester Ox Road/Stalybridge-Southport services that are terminating at Wigan this week will run into Wigan North Western, not Wigan Wallgate which would indicate use of 769's. This will utilise platforms 1 & 3 at North Western for most of the day so someone in control will be hoping there are no 'incidents' on the WCML in the Wigan area all week!

 

[Geeves]

In the end they cancelled the 1951 and attempted to use 424 as the rescue unit how ever that was not a success. That unit (once they managed to get it off again)after about an hour of various messing around went back on its way empty to Stalybridge. Then as you said 5J95 came from Staly empty as only the cab would fit on two. A fitter came this time from the depot and a few drivers who seemed pretty knowledgeable got it all sorted. Eventually the air built up and it finally left around 2200 if I remember right! Everything was made harder because to even get into two unit had to pass signal at danger due to signalling system not allowing train into 2 Lime St rules, plus the rescue requires rescue unit to be in diesel mode and then to start train has to be in leading cab which was causing issues of some unknown reason. All good fun! I didn't get photos of attempt 2 but it definitely all went.

Attempt 1!

 

[david l]

Ta.

Was on 424 and 434 yesterday for a jaunt to Manchester (and back). 424's inside display was claiming ' Welcome on board to this class 319' and some light rain meant plenty slipping between Hindley & Westhoughton, but other than that they both behaved!

 

[Wyrleybart]

Ta.

Was on 424 and 434 yesterday for a jaunt to Manchester (and back). 424's inside display was claiming ' Welcome on board to this class 319' and some light rain meant plenty slipping between Hindley & Westhoughton, but other than that they both behaved!

At the end of the day they are still 4 car units with a single motor car - maybe actually the last operational class of trains on the network to comply that.
Obviously the 318 and 320 only have three cars. so more of a power to weight / adhesion factor, guessing there are now no multiple units of that configuration left in passenger service.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Modified diagrams this week due to Southport line closure. All services are running into Wigan North Western so under the wires all day (except the Sprinter pair which do pop into Wallgate this evening
5 diagrams (2 Oxford Road and 3 Stalybridge)
Today 4 are 769s (424, 442, 450, 456), with the remaining Stalybridge diagram being 156415 + 150228, so all 4 carriages!

769450 is booked to swap with 769434 at Wigan this evening, which leaves 450 at Allerton and 434 at Newton Heath (presumably the swap is useful for getting them to where they need to be)

 

[david l]

Mon 27/7

Allocations as above but it appears that due to congestion at Wigan NW (due to trespass just south of Preston) with Platforms 1 & then 3 occupied at Wigan NW - 769442 on 2W14 12.27 Ox Rd- Wigan North Western and 2O77 13.37 return have been diverted into and out off Wigan Wallgate, changed over at Ince from electric to diesel and vice versa for the 1 mile and 12 chains run!!
769450 on 2W15 12.52 Stalybridge-Wigan NW and 14.04 return has also been diverted from WIgan NW to Wigan Wallgate.
Seems that trespass incident has now cleared but knock-on delays still occuring on WCML.

769442 starting at AN on 5J01 will also finish at AN tonight, 2 (442 & 450) actually started from NH this morning after Saturdays fun with 442.

Tues 28/7

4 start the day 424/34/50/58, and 442 comes out to play later in day from SP to rotate units around. 1 x 4 car 150 DMU covering.
431 missing since 21/7, 456 in use 27/7, 448 at Brodies.

Wed 29/7
4 start the day 431/34/42/56, and 458 comes out to play later in day from SP to rotate units around. 1 x 4 car 150 DMU covering.

Thurs 30/7
4 start the day 424/42/50/58, and 456 comes out to play later in day from SP to rotate units around. 1 x 4 car 150 DMU covering.

Fri 31/7
3 start the day 431/56/58, and 434 comes out to play later in day from SP to rotate units around. 1 x 4 car 150 DMU covering and 1 x 2 car 156 DMU (425) covering off AN.
Back to 'normal' tomorrow, whatever that is.
All 769's have been in use this week, except for 448 at Brodies since 4/7.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

2W14 12.27 Ox Rd- Wigan North Western and 2O77 13.37 return have been diverted into and out off Wigan Wallgate!!

Good thing they didn't put EMUs on them! (not that there's any spare - there's a 156 on one of the peak time Wigan-Eccles-Manchester 331 diagrams)

 

[david l]

Good thing they didn't put EMUs on them! (not that there's any spare - there's a 156 on one of the peak time Wigan-Eccles-Manchester 331 diagrams)

Congestion still going on in the Preston area after 2 (females) tried to walk from Preston to Leyland....now removed but congestion continues with 11 trains in section between Euxton and Preston, mainly due to trains at Preston waiting crew. As such 2 x Euston-Glasgow currently held at Wigan NW, with 1 at Warrington. TPE held in No.1 at Wigan, so 2W19 14.52 Stalybridge-Wigan NW and 15.27 2W20 Manchester Ox Road-Wigan NW both kept out of the way by diverting to Wigan Wallgate (both 769's!!)

 

[thealexweb]

Congestion still going on in the Preston area after 2 (females) tried to walk from Preston to Leyland....now removed but congestion continues with 11 trains in section between Euxton and Preston, mainly due to trains at Preston waiting crew. As such 2 x Euston-Glasgow currently held at Wigan NW, with 1 at Warrington. TPE held in No.1 at Wigan, so 2W19 14.52 Stalybridge-Wigan NW and 15.27 2W20 Manchester Ox Road-Wigan NW both kept out of the way by diverting to Wigan Wallgate (both 769's!!)

Can the remaining bay platform not accommodate the 4x20m?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Can the remaining bay platform not accommodate the 4x20m?

Platform 3 is being used for turning Liverpool services while Northbound trains use 6 (what should've been the 15:26 to Glasgow has been in P6 since 15:41)

 

[Jamesrob637]

Modified diagrams this week due to Southport line closure. All services are running into Wigan North Western so under the wires all day (except the Sprinter pair which do pop into Wallgate this evening
5 diagrams (2 Oxford Road and 3 Stalybridge)
Today 4 are 769s (424, 442, 450, 456), with the remaining Stalybridge diagram being 156415 + 150228, so all 4 carriages!

769450 is booked to swap with 769434 at Wigan this evening, which leaves 450 at Allerton and 434 at Newton Heath (presumably the swap is useful for getting them to where they need to be)

I think people just want 4 carriages, regardless of what type.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I think people just want 4 carriages, regardless of what type.

Yes but this is the 769 thread so how many are running is notable. 4 of 8 (plus 1 brief evening service) is pretty good going (and it's good how few diagrams need switching to Diesel at any point, given changeover was a common failure point)

Today we've got 424, 434 on Stalybridge services, 450 and 458 on Oxford Road services, with 442 swapping for 434 this evening (for Allerton/Newton Heath).
Remaining Stalybridge diagram 150228 + 150204.

It looks like this will probably be the pattern that remains, the diagram with the Sprinters forms off Wigan Wallgate Up Carriage Sidings, and no 769s (are supposed to) spend the night there.

 

[M60lad]

I know 769s spend the night at various Depots but what's the reason why the can't spend the night at Wigan Wallgate Carriage sidings?

 

[Nym]

I know 769s spend the night at various Depots but what's the reason why the can't spend the night at Wigan Wallgate Carriage sidings?

Likely the challenge in getting them started again if they fail in a new and unusual way.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I know 769s spend the night at various Depots but what's the reason why the can't spend the night at Wigan Wallgate Carriage sidings?

Sorry, "no 769s (are supposed to) spend the night there" wasn't a matter of permission, just that none of the diagrams end there so there's none in a morning to form the service.

All 769s are booked to spend the night at Springs Branch, Allerton or Newton Heath.
I've seen some (broken down or due to disruption) be left in the sidings there overnight.


769431 and 769456 on Oxford Road services today
769434 and 769442 on Stalybridge services, with 769458 on the evening swap.
150201 and 150204 on the remaining Stalybridge diagram.

 

[david l]

Sat 1/8
Parbold track relaying complete.
6 out today 424/31/34/42/50/58.
Tonight 450 to AN (not SP) and 458 to SP (not AN)
456 to AN 31/7, 448 at Brodies since 4/7.

 

[Class455]

Sat 1/8
Parbold track relaying complete.
6 out today 424/31/34/42/50/58.
Tonight 450 to AN (not SP) and 458 to SP (not AN)
456 to AN 31/7, 448 at Brodies since 4/7.

769431 appears to have been taken out of service at Wigan Wallgate this morning and has seemingly been replaced by 150106.

 

[david l]

769431 appears to have been taken out of service at Wigan Wallgate this morning and has seemingly been replaced by 150106.

150106 purloined from one of the Stalybridge/Ox Road-Southport diagrams that are still DMU, fortunately today running as a 4 with 150206. Just means though 2 more shortforms.
769431 retired to SP.

Mon 3/8
5 start the day 424/34/42/50/58. 1 x 4 car 150 DMU (103/08) covering off SP.
424 ran into trouble, mid-morning and ws replaced by 150103, itself split from the 4 car DMU replacement covering for a non-available 769.

Tues 4/8
5 start the day 434/42/50/56/58. 1 x 2 car 156 DMU (427) covering off SP

 

[Ballyheigue]

Got on one of the 769s this evening from Southport (17.24) and it's so obvious why it takes almost an hour and a half to reach Manchester. Slow at pulling away is not the word, it's actually possible to walk alongside it for quite some length of a platform before it finally pulls away. Not only that, it shuddered as if the engine was very damaged and ready to give up when it came into a number of stations, simply put they need replacing.

 

[WAO]

When moving off from a terminus, there is often restrictive point work ahead. Hence the gentle starts.

Compression Ignition engines do tend to be noisy.

 

[Paul AC]

Got on one of the 769s this evening from Southport (17.24) and it's so obvious why it takes almost an hour and a half to reach Manchester. Slow at pulling away is not the word, it's actually possible to walk alongside it for quite some length of a platform before it finally pulls away. Not only that, it shuddered as if the engine was very damaged and ready to give up when it came into a number of stations, simply put they need replacing.

Northern have, for some years, been under the mistaken impression that very gentle starts with 769s (and 319s before that) are necessary to protect the traction motors from damage. The drivers are instructed to drive in this manner. This despite technical advice from engineers familiar with the trains over many years, myself included.

The reason your train took 1 hour 25 minutes to reach Manchester Victoria (RTT schedule link: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P28810/2026-08-03/detailed#allox_id=0) is that it calls at all gateposts en route (excluding Clifton), and indeed it arrived at Man Vic only as minute late after being up to 5 minutes late en route.

769s in diesel mode tend to be a tad slower overall than the 150s they usually replace, but when in AC mode they romp away as would be expected; performance over the very hilly section between Wigan/Ince and Bolton being much better in AC mode than it used to be in diesel mode, and better than a 150.

Which carriage did you travel in? I can't think of a reason for the/an engine shuddering when arriving at stations. Were you in the Auxiliary Trailer (the non-driving car that doesn't have the pantograph on it)? The main compressor, which is under that vehicle and cuts in and out as required, can sound quite noisy and rattly.

 

[Ballyheigue]

Northern have, for some years, been under the mistaken impression that very gentle starts with 769s (and 319s before that) are necessary to protect the traction motors from damage. The drivers are instructed to drive in this manner. This despite technical advice from engineers familiar with the trains over many years, myself included.

The reason your train took 1 hour 25 minutes to reach Manchester Victoria (RTT schedule link: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P28810/2026-08-03/detailed#allox_id=0) is that it calls at all gateposts en route (excluding Clifton), and indeed it arrived at Man Vic only as minute late after being up to 5 minutes late en route.

769s in diesel mode tend to be a tad slower overall than the 150s they usually replace, but when in AC mode they romp away as would be expected; performance over the very hilly section between Wigan/Ince and Bolton being much better in AC mode than it used to be in diesel mode, and better than a 150.

Which carriage did you travel in? I can't think of a reason for the/an engine shuddering when arriving at stations. Were you in the Auxiliary Trailer (the non-driving car that doesn't have the pantograph on it)? The main compressor, which is under that vehicle and cuts in and out as required, can sound quite noisy and rattly.

But that's just it, you've hit the nail on the head that in diesel mode they're slower than a 150 overall. Yes they were quick enough when they finally got going, but if they were quick at pulling away in diesel mode the journey time would improve. I was in the second carriage. You can't really have a diesel train that's slower than a 150, that's just going backwards lol.

 

[AM9]

But that's just it, you've hit the nail on the head that in diesel mode they're slower than a 150 overall. Yes they were quick enough when they finally got going, but if they were quick at pulling away in diesel mode the journey time would improve. I was in the second carriage. You can't really have a diesel train that's slower than a 150, that's just going backwards lol.

In my experience of them, they are much quieter than the 150s, especially when pulling away as their engine(s) run at their most efficient speed. Above about 20mph, travelling in the front car, the sound of rhe dc motors two cars away could clearly be heard above rhe diesel throb.
Southport and Manchester Victoria are both about the same from Wigan Wallgate, so I doubt that a 150 being thrashed on the whole route could beat a 769's dual mode journey.*
* Assuming no failures en-route.

 

[AMD]

When moving off from a terminus, there is often restrictive point work ahead. Hence the gentle starts.

Indeed - Southport is 10mph within station limits, and then only 20mph all the way to Meols Cop; so no great hurry to get going!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Indeed - Southport is 10mph within station limits, and then only 20mph all the way to Meols Cop; so no great hurry to get going!

Also - you just triggered a brain cell. A quieter vehicle often seems slower. Its a perception thing. In accident reports a car with a noisy exhaust or racing engine (in a lower gear) seems faster to witnesses. Actual measurements are more reliable.

As for the compressor - Back in the 1980s I could not persuade someone travelling with me on an EPB (an electric multiple unit) that the train was NOT diesel. He kept pointing it out every time the compressor ran. I think I gave up when he would not accept that the engine was not running all the time. Of course my argument would collapse these days with Bi-Modes such as the 769 !.

 

[david l]

Indeed - Southport is 10mph within station limits, and then only 20mph all the way to Meols Cop; so no great hurry to get going!

The record I believe (as achieved by SP or Wigan L& Y drivers) between Wigan and Southport is between 16 and 17 minutes............by steam and via Blowick (until 1964).
At late as 1978 17.10 Man Vic-Southport was 53 minutes (stopping Salford, Wigan W, Meols Cop & Southport) 6 car Class 104.

 

[Gricer99]

So when we finally have the new timetable will 769s be withdrawn so there be a Southport to Wigan Wallgate dmu branchline and a Wallgate to Headbolt Lane dmu Branchline?