Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[apinnard]

It would look good with the seat type they're using with the 360 refurbishment, but that could be asking for too much!

If the 360 refurb is anything to go by, it will take at least a year for the first 350 to get done and then it will sit in a siding somewhere on the route, unused for many months. And that’s all whilst the majority of the fleet shake, rattle and roll along, being patched together with gaffer tape.

 

[gc4946]

Would the 323s on the Hadfield route be replaced with 3-car 331s? I've travelled on the 323s recently and despite their good acceleration between stops look like they're on the way out. The 350/2s are ideal for Man Picc-Crewe services which I'm guessing they'll be initially used once they've completed modifications. At least with the 350/2s because they're fully gangwayed if 8-car trains overhang platforms people can walk through the train.

 

[lowe1409]

Would the 323s on the Hadfield route be replaced with 3-car 331s? I've travelled on the 323s recently and despite their good acceleration between stops look like they're on the way out. The 350/2s are ideal for Man Picc-Crewe services which I'm guessing they'll be initially used once they've completed modifications. At least with the 350/2s because they're fully gangwayed if 8-car trains overhang platforms people can walk through the train.

Gangways still aint gonna help with short platforms however when trains overhang fowling junctions as would be the case at the likes of Salford Cresant. The gangways are however welcome as it might encourage more people to use the front set as opposed to now where often the front set feels quiet and the rear absolutely rammed

 

[Class 466]

Would the 323s on the Hadfield route be replaced with 3-car 331s?

I’d hope not, that’d be a massive drop in capacity!

 

[xotGD]

I’d hope not, that’d be a massive drop in capacity!

No middle seats that nobody wants to sit in.

 

[Class 466]

No middle seats that nobody wants to sit in.

Stood on plenty where all 6 seats in a bay are occupied. Also popular at weekends for families/groups of more than 4. This “nobody sits in the middle seats” thing is the biggest myth going.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Stood on plenty where all 6 seats in a bay are occupied. Also popular at weekends for families/groups of more than 4. This “nobody sits in the middle seats” thing is the biggest myth going.

Not sure it has ever been a ‘nobody sits in the middle seats’ thing, more a ‘not enough people sit in the middle seats to offset the loss of standing capacity and for people to circulate through the train when busy’ thing.

 

[Starmill]

I’d hope not, that’d be a massive drop in capacity!

Actually, it's slightly more capacity. You can get a lot more people stood up on them than on a 323.

There probably won't be any available anyway though.

 

[lowe1409]

Actually, it's slightly more capacity. You can get a lot more people stood up on them than on a 323.

There probably won't be any available anyway though.

Standing space on a 323 is abysmal. Narrowest double doors I can think of.

Though what's the reason 4 cars can't be used? Is it the curve at dinting?

 

[Northern150]

With the increased standing space instead of middle seats. the 331s surely have more capacity. A lot of people would rather stand than get crammed in like sardines on those things

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Though what's the reason 4 cars can't be used? Is it the curve at dinting?

I don't think I've ever heard a reason they can't be used, but there are only 12 4 car 331s and they only came over to Manchester relatively recently so there would have been little need. But if it was anything I can certainly see it being that curve.

Did 319s ever run that way? I know the 350/2 test run on Glossop ran so that was 4 and I don't recall anyone saying Dinting was a problem.

 

[mandub]

Interesting. Any unit I’ve ridden between Preston and Manchester has definitely hit 90mph where capable and kept time just fine, usually arriving at Salford with a few minutes to spare. As you say, it must be driver preference. 350s are built like tanks so getting rid of any disturbance from the cab door will be a massive bonus for drivers.

Yeah. I don't know any drivers at my depot who don't go to 90 every time the route allows it. They are noisy but you can hear the vigilance OK, or you just notch the speed up/down instead to reset before the 1 minute.
Agree they are coming to the end, but they are still most drivers fav unit

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Standing space on a 323 is abysmal. Narrowest double doors I can think of.

You’d have a nasty shock seeing a 158 for the first time then

 

[Class 466]

Standing space on a 323 is abysmal. Narrowest double doors I can think of.

Though what's the reason 4 cars can't be used? Is it the curve at dinting?

4 car 331s were due to start as recently as December 2024 - but the diagrams were switched back to 323 just prior to that timetable going live. If anything 4x20m will bridge the curved platforms slightly better than the 4/3x 23m 331s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stood on plenty where all 6 seats in a bay are occupied. Also popular at weekends for families/groups of more than 4. This “nobody sits in the middle seats” thing is the biggest myth going.

It is true in some places but probably not "up north" where people prioritise personal space less than "down south".

It is however more efficient and improves accessibility to do narrow 2+2 like the 700, 730/0 etc.

It will be interesting what they end up doing - the figure quoted does sound like new seats rather than just covers, carpets and an interior and exterior respray. Has anything been stated on this?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is true in some places but probably not "up north" where people prioritise personal space less than "down south".

This is hilarious.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is hilarious.

It's true. Down South people avoid people. Up North there is more of a "we are in this together" mentality.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's true. Down South people avoid people. Up North there is more of a "we are in this together" mentality.

I'm sure even the most extroverted of people still value having some degree of personal space, but I get your point.

 

[43096]

It's true. Down South people avoid people. Up North there is more of a "we are in this together" mentality.

But in years of commuting into Waterloo on 2+3 stock (450s and 458/0s) I never once saw the middle seat avoided, so your point is moot.

 

[Mamorin]

It will be interesting what they end up doing - the figure quoted does sound like new seats rather than just covers, carpets and an interior and exterior respray. Has anything been stated on this?

The Modern Railways Article says this of the refurb.

"A briefing sent to Northern staff, and seen by Modern Railways, states that prior to entering traffic, some £25 million will be spent on modifications for the units including upgrading the passenger experience through refreshed interiors. The investment comes from Siemens, which built the trains, and Porterbrook which owns them."

I don't think new seats will be added, what I think will most likely be added is:
New Carpets
New Seat Covers
The screens that were fitted to Northern's older fleet
SDO in the cabs (I think the 350/2s still have Unit deselect)
Power plugs and USB sockets

Though if any seats do get changed though it will most likely only be the removal of the old First Class section, with it being converted to Standard Class seating.

 

[Jamesrob637]

It's true. Down South people avoid people. Up North there is more of a "we are in this together" mentality.

Devon and Cornwall

We're Northern too, mentally at least.

 

[Class 466]

The Modern Railways Article says this of the refurb.

"A briefing sent to Northern staff, and seen by Modern Railways, states that prior to entering traffic, some £25 million will be spent on modifications for the units including upgrading the passenger experience through refreshed interiors. The investment comes from Siemens, which built the trains, and Porterbrook which owns them."

I don't think new seats will be added, what I think will most likely be added is:
New Carpets
New Seat Covers
The screens that were fitted to Northern's older fleet
SDO in the cabs (I think the 350/2s still have Unit deselect)
Power plugs and USB sockets

Though if any seats do get changed though it will most likely only be the removal of the old First Class section, with it being converted to Standard Class seating.

Yeah, the PIS will almost definitely be brought in line with the rest of Northern with the TrainFX system.

 

[Mamorin]

Forgot to mention the PIS, I should have remembered that the PIS is almost guaranteed to be changed to TrainFX.

I don't think the PIS on the 350/2s even has Northern's stations programmed into it, I know when the first Glossop trial happened the destination on the PIS was Stafford.

When I said screens I ment the TV things that were added to the older fleet.

 

[lowe1409]

You’d have a nasty shock seeing a 158 for the first time then

I'll admit, I completely forgot those things existed

It is true in some places but probably not "up north" where people prioritise personal space less than "down south".

But in years of commuting into Waterloo on 2+3 stock (450s and 458/0s) I never once saw the middle seat avoided, so your point is moot.

I feel mentalities must have changed. I've seen many a 323 recently where people are choosing to stand and block doorways, not allowing others on, when there's been plenty of free seats.

 

[Nym]

Yeah, the PIS will almost definitely be brought in line with the rest of Northern with the TrainFX system.

When the units won't interwork with anything else and there's literally nothing wrong with (and no obsolescence issue with) the existing SA Viewcom system, why bother?

It's a lot of effort and expense in doing quite a bit of ceilings down and re-wiring to fit a full TrainFX system in place of the existing, it just doesn't seem worth doing so when the work is budget constrained.

If it's just "Fitting screens" then why not use the standalone systems that work alongside the SA Viewcom system rather than replacing all of it?


SDO/ASDO/CASDO however they'd like to implement it will end up going very deep into that £25m, even if they use the same Sella Controls system that is fitted to the 185s rather than the Petards system that is "Less effective".

Unless of course, they actually mean SDO, without any form of automation, even that would take up a fair chunk of budget.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

When the units won't interwork with anything else and there's literally nothing wrong with (and no obsolescence issue with) the existing SA Viewcom system, why bother?

It's a lot of effort and expense in doing quite a bit of ceilings down and re-wiring to fit a full TrainFX system in place of the existing, it just doesn't seem worth doing so when the work is budget constrained.

If it's just "Fitting screens" then why not use the standalone systems that work alongside the SA Viewcom system rather than replacing all of it?

One could have asked the same question about both the 170s and 333s, both of which only work solo.

 

[Nym]

One could have asked the same question about both the 170s and 333s, both of which only work solo.

One did...

Although the BTROS system on the 170s from build was having difficulty in being maintained and the wiring changes from that to TrainFX (if you don't "Digital Train" it using them contractors) is a relatively simple changeover.

For the 350/2s, the current TrainFX offering won't fit without making some relatively significant changes to the equipment in order to make it fit.

 

[Mamorin]

When the units won't interwork with anything else and there's literally nothing wrong with (and no obsolescence issue with) the existing SA Viewcom system, why bother?

It's a lot of effort and expense in doing quite a bit of ceilings down and re-wiring to fit a full TrainFX system in place of the existing, it just doesn't seem worth doing so when the work is budget constrained.

If it's just "Fitting screens" then why not use the standalone systems that work alongside the SA Viewcom system rather than replacing all of it?


SDO/ASDO/CASDO however they'd like to implement it will end up going very deep into that £25m, even if they use the same Sella Controls system that is fitted to the 185s rather than the Petards system that is "Less effective".

Unless of course, they actually mean SDO, without any form of automation, even that would take up a fair chunk of budget.

SDO will need to be installed if the 350/2s are to be run as 8 cars, 8 car running might happen.

For example at Christmas Northern operate 6 car 323s on Stokes, a single 350/2 would not cope.

8 cars won't fit on all platforms, so unless platform extensions are coming the SDO might be fitted.

At the moment we don't know what the "Mods" are 100% going to be.

I'm honestly looking forward to the 350/2s coming to Northern, and this is coming from a somebody who normally hates the North getting the South's cast offs/hand me downs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2026 ==

One could have asked the same question about both the 170s and 333s, both of which only work solo.

333s needed TrainFX to operate Doncaster services, the 333s announcements used to work on magnetic tape which could not be re-recorded and used again.

Hence why TrainFX was installed on the 333s.

All mentioned by Northern staff in this video.

Anyway that's getting a bit off topic I think.

 

[Class 466]

SDO will need to be installed if the 350/2s are to be run as 8 cars, 8 car running might happen.

For example at Christmas Northern operate 6 car 323s on Stokes, a single 350/2 would not cope.

8 cars won't fit on all platforms, so unless platform extensions are coming the SDO might be fitted.

At the moment we don't know what the "Mods" are 100% going to be.

I'm honestly looking forward to the 350/2s coming to Northern, and this is coming from a somebody who normally hates the North getting the South's cast offs/hand me downs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2026 ==


333s needed TrainFX to operate Doncaster services, the 333s announcements used to work on magnetic tape which could not be re-recorded and used again.

Hence why TrainFX was installed on the 333s.

All mentioned by Northern staff in this video.

Anyway that's getting a bit off topic I think.

333s had the Doncaster calls in on the old system. I travelled on one pre TrainFX and they were working fine. That’s not to say the systems wasn’t due a replacement.

 

[Nym]

SDO will need to be installed if the 350/2s are to be run as 8 cars, 8 car running might happen.

For example at Christmas Northern operate 6 car 323s on Stokes, a single 350/2 would not cope.

8 cars won't fit on all platforms, so unless platform extensions are coming the SDO might be fitted.

At the moment we don't know what the "Mods" are 100% going to be.

I'm honestly looking forward to the 350/2s coming to Northern, and this is coming from a somebody who normally hates the North getting the South's cast offs/hand me downs.

I'm not denying SDO is needed, simply that it will swallow up more than they think. Unless of course, they do SDO, not ASDO.

The replacement of PIS with TrainFX however, seems wasteful.