TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[chargesmith]

Speaking to friends who know people who know more than most it appears many VR494 haters will have egg on their face ‘shortly’ (as TfW seem to like to use this term)

Ah yes, my friends friends said, always a sign of reliable information.

 

[bahnause]

I’ve no idea what that collection of letters and numbers mean, can you expand…

It is a european standard for crash worhimess. EN 15227 Category C-III applies to vehicles designed to operate on urban, regional, or mainline networks that involve track-sharing with heavier trains and frequent interfaces with road traffic

 

[AdamWW]

.as has been pointed out on this thread tram systems in other parts of uk don’t have conductors

I've been on a few that had conductors.

 

[Chris217]

The last train/toilet diilema could be solved by using a FLIRT instead.
Surely an option especially since a few would have been retired for the night at Canton.
Just diagram FLIRTS for the last couple of trains that sees them on the 'last trips'

 

[MikePJ]

Both RMT and ASLEF seem very quiet on 398s. A search of both their websites turns up an ASLEF magazine piece from March this year written by the Cardiff branch secetary saying that the training package has been agreed and was going into pilot stage, a brief mention of the fact that ASLEF liked being consulted about the 398s cab design in a submission to parliament, and absolutely nothing from the RMT. If they had concerns about their members safety or felt that management were covering up shortcomings, they'd be making a lot of fuss. Likewise, the RMT are very hot on the role of guards/conductors so again, if they felt their concerns weren't being listened to, they'd be making a fuss.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2026 ==

The last train/toilet diilema could be solved by using a FLIRT instead.
Surely an option especially since a few would have been retired for the night at Canton.
Just diagram FLIRTS for the last couple of trains that sees them on the 'last trips'

That's what TfW are doing until December this year. EDIT https://tfw.wales/projects/metro/south-wales-metro/toilets

Until late 2026, we’ll continue to use our Class 756 trains on our last services of the day. These trains have toilets on board.

After this, we’ll replace our Class 756s with our tram-trains, adding dedicated toilet stops to our timetable on late-night services. This will allow customers to get off and use the toilet, before getting back on and continuing their journey.

 

[Chris217]

Good call

 

[chargesmith]

Toilets | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

This page suggests that they've installed temporary toilets at Pontypridd, Trefforest and Radyr, in some cases while upgrading existing facilities. If true, They wouldn't do this in my opinion until the 398s were about to come into service as so far all units run with onboard toilets so there's not really any need for them and hiring temporary units would be an additional and unnecessary cost.

Can anyone verify that the temporary facilities are in place yet? If they are, then it will probably be a matter of weeks before the units start running, if not, then it may be longer.

Also lists where the toilet stops are on all lines. Surprised no facilities for Cardiff Bay, hopefully will be rectified in future funding streams.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Toilets | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

This page suggests that they've installed temporary toilets at Pontypridd, Trefforest and Radyr, in some cases while upgrading existing facilities. If true, They wouldn't do this in my opinion until the 398s were about to come into service as so far all units run with onboard toilets so there's not really any need for them and hiring temporary units would be an additional and unnecessary cost.

Can anyone verify that the temporary facilities are in place yet? If they are, then it will probably be a matter of weeks before the units start running, if not, then it may be longer.

Also lists where the toilet stops are on all lines. Surprised no facilities for Cardiff Bay, hopefully will be rectified in future funding streams.

I think you have a point there. TfW certainly must believe 398s are getting imminent to spend money they could otherwise delay.

As for Cardiff Bay - I suppose there are various venues with loos around there already. There is the Millennium centre (that I rely on) and the cinema/entertainments complex. Also all the bars/pubs around there. Though a whole loo complex five minutes walk from them through fresh air to the station might be very very important !.

 

[AlterEgo]

.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2026 ==


Maybe he doesn’t want to have the hassle of going to the press?

The hassle of simply sending an email with the same content to a few newspapers? As if.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2026 ==

Speaking to friends who know people who know more than most it appears many VR494 haters will have egg on their face ‘shortly’ (as TfW seem to like to use this term)

Another single issue poster who joined just to post comments here in support of the other single issue poster who joined just to post comments here. Zzzzzz.

 

[D365]

I've been on a few that had conductors.

They don’t operate doors though?

 

[southwales398]

Toilets | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

This page suggests that they've installed temporary toilets at Pontypridd, Trefforest and Radyr, in some cases while upgrading existing facilities. If true, They wouldn't do this in my opinion until the 398s were about to come into service as so far all units run with onboard toilets so there's not really any need for them and hiring temporary units would be an additional and unnecessary cost.

Can anyone verify that the temporary facilities are in place yet? If they are, then it will probably be a matter of weeks before the units start running, if not, then it may be longer.

Also lists where the toilet stops are on all lines. Surprised no facilities for Cardiff Bay, hopefully will be rectified in future funding streams.

I'm pretty sure the one in the car park at trefforest is in place now, saw them putting it in the other day

 

[VR494]

I'll further expand on what I mean in regards to these brakes, the units may meet certain specifications but do not offer the protection of a heavy rail train. A train's air brakes are held off with pressure and if the pipe goes they jam on.

There have been countless episodes of TCU faults which is the main brain of the controls. Driver's having between 7-20 seconds delays in applying the brakes after it has been commanded. There is only one fail safe and that's the electromagnetic force that can be applied to the rail head.

If the electrics are already in a sate of failure through lets say faulty wiring, or faults that keep getting cleared with a laptop, then there is nothing to stop these things.

There is so much pressure from above to get them out, steps are being cut and ignored where possible. Including the covering up of reports from crew, it's shocking to be honest.

The media will find out eventually, they can't hind it much longer.

 

[800001]

I'll further expand on what I mean in regards to these brakes, the units may meet certain specifications but do not offer the protection of a heavy rail train. A train's air brakes are held off with pressure and if the pipe goes they jam on.

There have been countless episodes of TCU faults which is the main brain of the controls. Driver's having between 7-20 seconds delays in applying the brakes after it has been commanded. There is only one fail safe and that's the electromagnetic force that can be applied to the rail head.

If the electrics are already in a sate of failure through lets say faulty wiring, or faults that keep getting cleared with a laptop, then there is nothing to stop these things.

There is so much pressure from above to get them out, steps are being cut and ignored where possible. Including the covering up of reports from crew, it's shocking to be honest.

The media will find out eventually, they can't hind it much longer.

If this is the case, I really do think the union would be shouting from the roof tops. And instructing there drivers not to touch the units.

If I was a driver and the units kept having delayed brake reaction, I'd be refusing to take a unit out onto mainline.

EMR drivers were going to ballot due to door faults, your stories about brakes on the 398 are much more serious if true, yet silence from unions.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'll further expand on what I mean in regards to these brakes, the units may meet certain specifications but do not offer the protection of a heavy rail train. A train's air brakes are held off with pressure and if the pipe goes they jam on.

There have been countless episodes of TCU faults which is the main brain of the controls. Driver's having between 7-20 seconds delays in applying the brakes after it has been commanded. There is only one fail safe and that's the electromagnetic force that can be applied to the rail head.

If the electrics are already in a sate of failure through lets say faulty wiring, or faults that keep getting cleared with a laptop, then there is nothing to stop these things.

There is so much pressure from above to get them out, steps are being cut and ignored where possible. Including the covering up of reports from crew, it's shocking to be honest.

The media will find out eventually, they can't hind it much longer.

Report it to ORR. You're not anonymous on here, if you have significant safety concerns you need to whistleblow instead of posting stuff for clout online to grind an axe.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Report it to ORR. You're not anonymous on here, if you have significant safety concerns you need to whistleblow instead of posting stuff for clout online to grind an axe.

I completely agree with this, its an interoperability concern which the ORR should be very keen on given they are yet to provide authorisation for the units.

@VR494, please use the below and provide as much information as you deem necessary.
interoperability@orr.gov.uk

 

[D365]

I was under the impression that CIRAS is the go-to hotline for anonymously reporting safety concerns.

CIRAS is the confidential safety hotline for transport. It reduces industry risk by listening to workers’ safety concerns and connecting its member companies with information that might otherwise stay hidden.

CIRAS is a subsidiary of Rail Safety and Standards Board, and operates impartially and independently of its members.

CIRAS listens to those who come forward to be heard. It protects their identity when sharing their concerns with its members. The right people can then investigate and act.

Anyone in transport can report concerns through CIRAS. And CIRAS reports can be for any company, including clients and contractors – not just the reporter’s employer.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder how long the period of 398 and 756 running side by side will be?

 

[positron]

It will be interesting to see if perhaps the use of 756s as the last train of the night ends up getting brought back for special events or for the Friday and Saturday late journeys. It seems like a workable solution to that specific problem, unless the 756s are needed for other routes but there surely enough units to cover all of them.

Also with the 398s spending a lot of time around the bay it does seem odd for no toilets to be installed there with the massive platform and even a staff hut planned.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2026 ==

Speaking to friends who know people who know more than most it appears many VR494 haters will have egg on their face ‘shortly’ (as TfW seem to like to use this term)

Ah yes the joined less than a month ago, friend of a friend knowledge to the defence...

At this point the correct course is to whistleblow or tell your friend of a friend to. If these units are genuinely that unsafe and having faults wiped from the logs I personally would say you have almost a moral obligation to be reporting this somewhere more useful than a forum.

I do think it's doubtful the whole fleet will be ready for December but I suspect the pontypridd to bay services maybe even treherbert to bay will be switched over.

It'll be interesting to see public reactions to switch over before the 4tph.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I was under the impression that CIRAS is the go-to hotline for anonymously reporting safety concerns.

This is true, although CIRAS is part of the RSSB. The ORR are responsible for the Interoperability of the railway, authorisation and safety legislation, they ultimately supervise the RSSB.

I wouldn't discount either of the public bodies, concerns will end up in the same place eventually.

 

[SWML9102]

The toilet issue has been done to death on here, but for someone with a bladder or bowel condition, holding on 20 minutes for the next toilet can actually be a very long time, especially if you have a condition that means you can need the toilet urgently, without much warning, and can't hold on.
Ideally, it should be no more than 10 minutes to the next toilet, but obviously there's no funding for that.

On this page under the FAQs, it says there will be toilet stops for the last trains of the night from December

Toilets | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Regarding toilet stops on the last trains up each valley - I wonder whether any of TfW management have actually travelled on these on a Friday or Saturday night. What they are proposing is completely unrealistic. There is no way a bunch of drunk lads from the valleys are going to wait for the next toilet stops then queue up nicely to use it one at a time. Imagine how long that would take anyway, meanwhile delaying the service for those who might just have managed to hold on for the full hour to Merthyr or Rhymney or wherever.

Trains in the valleys have had toilets for decades - when they find there is not one accessible they will find an alternative. First one off will use the shiny new toilet, everyone else will pee through the platform fence. If someone needs to go before that their mates will hold the door while they use a random station, or use the passcom to give them enough time. If a train is stuck they will go in the gangway connections, they won't care, there's often plenty of sick on board anyway.

The platform ones will be useful for the ladies though.

Last train on a Friday or Saturday, especially in December is an absolute last resort for anyone sober. Goodness help the crews.

 

[Chris125]

Is there any reason to think the 398s have a fundamentally different braking system to Rotherham's 399s, a design signed off by all relevant parties some years ago and has operated successfully since?

 

[bahnause]

I'll further expand on what I mean in regards to these brakes, the units may meet certain specifications but do not offer the protection of a heavy rail train. A train's air brakes are held off with pressure and if the pipe goes they jam on

Good news! They don’t have to. Vehicle certification is tailored to the specific application and reflected in the standards. The vehicles are lighter and have significantly improved braking performance. In addition, a mixed usage profile creates other risks that must be taken into account. The vehicles are designed with this in mind, and that’s a good thing.

There have been countless episodes of TCU faults which is the main brain of the controls. Driver's having between 7-20 seconds delays in applying the brakes after it has been commanded. There is only one fail safe and that's the electromagnetic force that can be applied to the rail head.

Interesting. Are you telling us, that the 398 is using the TCU for controlling the brakes, while every other Tramlink is using the orogonal Knorr BCU (brake control unit)? Can you please clarify

Hydraulic brakes are like every other main braking system fail safe. The usual solution ist to release the brakes using hydraulic power against the force of a spring applying the brakes. You missunderstood the funcion of the electromagnetic brake as well. It is not primarily a second system to improve reliabilty, but to improve braking performance on the tram network or in bad railhead conditions.

 

[Towers]

Good news! They don’t have to. Vehicle certification is tailored to the specific application and reflected in the standards. The vehicles are lighter and have significantly improved braking performance. In addition, a mixed usage profile creates other risks that must be taken into account. The vehicles are designed with this in mind, and that’s a good thing.

Interesting. Are you telling us, that the 398 is using the TCU for controlling the brakes, while every other Tramlink is using the orogonal Knorr BCU (brake control unit)? Can you please clarify

Hydraulic brakes are like every other main braking system fail safe. The usual solution ist to release the brakes using hydraulic power against the force of a spring applying the brakes. You missunderstood the funcion of the electromagnetic brake as well. It is not primarily a second system to improve reliabilty, but to improve braking performance on the tram network or in bad railhead conditions.

The electromagnetic brake is surely only for emergency application, no? This being the ‘track brake’ which literally applies to the rails, and I understand tends to result in some degree of damage to the track?

 

[bahnause]

The electromagnetic brake is surely only for emergency application, no? This being the ‘track brake’ which literally applies to the rails, and I understand tends to result in some degree of damage to the track?

Generally speaking, that’s true. The speed range at which a magnetic track brake can be activated—and whether it can be activated at all—depends on the operator and the infrastructure. In this case, it likely even depends on the specific route. On modern trains, magnetic track brakes can often be controlled manually as well. “Emergency” is a broad term.

 

[chargesmith]

I wonder how long the period of 398 and 756 running side by side will be?

On the TAM lines it'll be until all or enough 398 units are in service, but they will still share heavy rail through Cardiff Central / Queen Street with 756 units doing the Rhymney and Coryton lines after this, so basically for as long as TfW uses both classes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2026 ==

Trains in the valleys have had toilets for decades - when they find there is not one accessible they will find an alternative. First one off will use the shiny new toilet, everyone else will pee through the platform fence.

If a train is stuck they will go in the gangway connections, they won't care, there's often plenty of sick on board anyway.

TfW will likely take very harsh action against anyone doing this - if anyone does do it then they'll likely only do it once.

 

[norbitonflyer]

TfW will likely take very harsh action against anyone doing this - if anyone does do it then they'll likely only do it once.

Yuo have to catch them in the act first

 

[Towers]

TfW will likely take very harsh action against anyone doing this - if anyone does do it then they'll likely only do it once.

What exactly are they in a position to do, realistically?

 

[50031]

Lots of different 398s running up and down the 3 valleys from Taffs Well depot all weekend, all running basically to time as far as I can see

 

[chargesmith]

Yuo have to catch them in the act first

What exactly are they in a position to do, realistically?

It's a criminal offence and there's CCTV all over the trains and platforms. And if the problem is going to be anywhere near as bad as people claim it's going to be it's in TFWs interest to have zero tolerance to it.

 

[800001]

It's a criminal offence and there's CCTV all over the trains and platforms. And if the problem is going to be anywhere near as bad as people claim it's going to be it's in TFWs interest to have zero tolerance to it.

I often wonder how people manage without toilets on busses.

On a night and weekend I know people who travel an hour on a bus after a day drinking rather than getting the train due to cost.

Don't see people urinating on the bus.